The question of forgiveness

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MaryM

Well-known member
Nov 25, 2022
458
263
63
#1
Reading Luke chapter 17 verses 3 to 4, I can do that most certainly.
If anyone apologised to me no problem, I can and do forgive and forget. Even several times. My heart melts if a person is sincere and I would feel awful not to forgive them.

The time I find it almost impossible to forgive is when people hurt me and do not say sorry in any way. No repentance at all. How does a person forgive them?

Yet in the above scripture Jesus is asking that which can be done. I feel relieved to read it!
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,666
592
113
#2
Gonna share a story that happen to me maybe 10y ago you don't have to believe it. Some one a believer one say was saying the most hurtful things you could say to someone you love. Right in the middle of it this love come over me. I've only felt this twice in 55y in the lord. Lol I remember saying "this is what love your enemy means". Well how to explain it. I loved them. I wanted to treat her like a queen. No it was like getting this treasure you always wanted. It was a reward for me to do everything for them. If they tread me like that for the rest of our life's.. I never gave that a thought. To just love them to do everything for them. The part I still do not understand is how to love them never ever getting anything from them in return. You didn't expect anything.

To love them like that was a reward. Then to think were more blessed when we give then when we receive. Yeah.. in this world its twisted not like it is where are Father is. As fast as it came it lifted was gone.

The point is.. I personally believe we can only in this world go so far and then He takes over only if we allow Him to. In my personal life.. I told someone that put the past under the blood of Jesus. I said to them I forgive you yet I wish I had never met you. So if someone asked me did I truly forgive them? No. For me if I hurt my lord I ask I repent He forgives as if I never did it. I need Him for that part when it comes to others. I am human and I don't know how to never remember. The enemy will always try to bring it up.. we but it under the blood
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,454
4,105
113
#3
Reading Luke chapter 17 verses 3 to 4, I can do that most certainly.
If anyone apologised to me no problem, I can and do forgive and forget. Even several times. My heart melts if a person is sincere and I would feel awful not to forgive them.

The time I find it almost impossible to forgive is when people hurt me and do not say sorry in any way. No repentance at all. How does a person forgive them?

Yet in the above scripture Jesus is asking that which can be done. I feel relieved to read it!

There is the issue. :) We are told to forgive without conditions. Forgiving one who has hurt you and praying for those who wrongly use you sets you free.

They will still reap what they have sown, and God will repay them. We do not need to see it but know God will do it.

Forgiveness is always about you, not the other person. Jesus said Forgie them, for they know not what they are doing.

We must imitate Jesus and have peace. But I will tell you what I have prayed. God has shown me people I need to go to and ask them to forgive me for things I did many years ago. I tell you what, I have never been so free. Thankfully, so far, all have been accepting of it.
 

MsMediator

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2022
980
629
93
#4
We are told to forgive without conditions.
Where does it say so in the Bible?

I tend more to agree with this:
Is Forgiveness Conditional or Unconditional? | Tim Challies

There is a difference between Biblical forgiveness and secular forgiveness. Secular forgiveness is about ourselves. As long as we can move forward, that's what matters. Biblical forgiveness cares just as much about the offender as the victim; that's why repentance from the offender is a condition. We continue to love the offender but that is different from forgiveness. When Jesus asked the Father to forgive the guards, we don't know the answer. I'm sure the guards would have had to come to their senses first and asked forgiveness first. Otherwise, by extension, no one would need to repent and we can claim ignorance.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,454
4,105
113
#5
Where does it say so in the Bible?

I tend more to agree with this:
Is Forgiveness Conditional or Unconditional? | Tim Challies

There is a difference between Biblical forgiveness and secular forgiveness. Secular forgiveness is about ourselves. As long as we can move forward, that's what matters. Biblical forgiveness cares just as much about the offender as the victim; that's why repentance from the offender is a condition. We continue to love the offender but that is different from forgiveness. When Jesus asked the Father to forgive the guards, we don't know the answer. I'm sure the guards would have had to come to their senses first and asked forgiveness first. Otherwise, by extension, no one would need to repent and we can claim ignorance.

Jesus said in Matthews 6:14

14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Jesus also said
Luke 6:37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.”
 

MsMediator

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2022
980
629
93
#6
Jesus said in Matthews 6:14

14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Jesus also said
Luke 6:37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.”
This doesn't say anything about forgiving without conditions. Forgiveness isn't about feelings. The end goal is reconciliaton which secular forgiveness doesn't really care about.

Meanwhile, there are multiple verses about repentance being a condition.
 

MsMediator

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2022
980
629
93
#7
One thing I like about Christian forgiveness is that the offender must seek forgiveness from the victim, not only God. Secular forgiveness is very internal.
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
3,249
3,584
113
67
#8
There is a difference between Biblical forgiveness and secular forgiveness. Secular forgiveness is about ourselves. As long as we can move forward, that's what matters.
Hello MsMediator, you are sadly correct (I say "sadly" here because most of the church seems to have wholeheartedly embraced the world's version of forgiveness in recent years, to the point that the Biblical model of forgiveness is seen as something that is offensive now :().

That said, we must never hate, hold a grudge, or harbor any kind of ill-will against a person who has sinned against us/harmed us. Rather, we (first and foremost) need to remember Who our portion really is in the life .. e.g. Lamentations 3:22-24 and then see that person as God sees him/her (with His eyes) instead. If we fail to do so, then we need to seek the Lord's forgiveness for not doing so.

The most difficult part of the Biblical model of forgiveness is the opening "rebuke", because it lays the burden of beginning the process of forgiveness and reconciliation squarely on the person who was hurt. Perhaps this is something that should be discussed more often in our churches, and in conversations like this one :)

Biblical forgiveness cares just as much about the offender as the victim; that's why repentance from the offender is a condition. We continue to love the offender but that is different from forgiveness. When Jesus asked the Father to forgive the guards, we don't know the answer. I'm sure the guards would have had to come to their senses first and asked forgiveness first. Otherwise, by extension, no one would need to repent and we can claim ignorance.
Quite right :)(y)

There is much more to discuss about the above, including the similar incident with Saul and Stephen and, of course, Matthew 6:14-15, which many in the church have begun to embrace as the "Gospel", or at least as some kind of second version of the Gospel, which it (v14-15, that is) was never meant to be.

I've gotta run, but I hope to return later this evening (Dv).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)
Luke 17
3 "If your brother sins, rebuke him; and ~if~ he repents, forgive him.
4 And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ forgive him."
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,454
4,105
113
#9
This doesn't say anything about forgiving without conditions. Forgiveness isn't about feelings. The end goal is reconciliaton which secular forgiveness doesn't really care about.

Meanwhile, there are multiple verses about repentance being a condition.

Actually, it does. It says IF you don't forgive, you're not forgiven. That is the condition. To be forgiven, you must forgive.

There are no added-on acceptions, options, or alternatives.
 

SteveEpperson

Junior Member
May 12, 2018
497
208
43
#10
About six years ago, two people I loved dearly betrayed my trust and set out to ruin my life. It was intentional and on purpose. Even after six years, neither has said they are sorry.

I tried to forgive right away, but Satan saw my weakness of anger and exploited it. I was utterly alone with God while fighting the battle. I put up a good fight and finally was able, under the Lord's direction, to refrain from retaliation.

There's a misconception about forgiveness that is prevalent in the Church. It claims that you must somehow find a way to befriend your attacker. Try telling that to a 17-year-old girl who has been raped.

Instead, forgiveness means releasing them from your wrath because you are not the judge, jury, and executioner—God is.

Forgiveness means that you treat them like any other stranger you would show courtesy to at the local drugstore. While you can open the door for them and let them pass ahead of you, it doesn't mean you will invite them for dinner.

You're neither friend nor foe. You are just indifferent to them.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,957
5,194
113
#11
There is the issue. :) We are told to forgive without conditions. Forgiving one who has hurt you and praying for those who wrongly use you sets you free.

They will still reap what they have sown, and God will repay them. We do not need to see it but know God will do it.

Forgiveness is always about you, not the other person. Jesus said Forgie them, for they know not what they are doing.

We must imitate Jesus and have peace. But I will tell you what I have prayed. God has shown me people I need to go to and ask them to forgive me for things I did many years ago. I tell you what, I have never been so free. Thankfully, so far, all have been accepting of it.
Amen to this all but especially

“Forgiving one who has hurt you and praying for those who wrongly use you sets you free.”
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,957
5,194
113
#12
Actually, it does. It says IF you don't forgive, you're not forgiven. That is the condition. To be forgiven, you must forgive.

There are no added-on acceptions, options, or alternatives.
Amen tbis parable holds understanding regarding the kingdom of God and this matter notice he’s forgiven all his huge debt but then won’t forgive another person thoer small debt and his large debt is reinstated he’s literally asked about forgivness

“Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his Lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the Lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.


But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.


So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their Lord all that was done. Then his Lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?


And his Lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:21-35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We all have to stand before judgement we want to be merciful to all because he was merciful to us
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,957
5,194
113
#13
Reading Luke chapter 17 verses 3 to 4, I can do that most certainly.
If anyone apologised to me no problem, I can and do forgive and forget. Even several times. My heart melts if a person is sincere and I would feel awful not to forgive them.

The time I find it almost impossible to forgive is when people hurt me and do not say sorry in any way. No repentance at all. How does a person forgive them?

Yet in the above scripture Jesus is asking that which can be done. I feel relieved to read it!
Remember that Jesus died for thier sin against you also it helps
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
6,164
1,767
113
#14
Romans 3 contains an amalgamation of references to various Psalms beginning with Psalm 51, when Nathan the prophet came to David after his adultery with Bathsheba, which begins with a prayer to create in him a clean heart, and Romans 3 specifical cites Psalm 51:4 which says, "Against You, You only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight..." The next reference is that of fools saying there is no God which includes the first three introductive verses of both Psalm 14 and 53, and the context of Romans 3: 9-19 tells us why David could say such a thing in good conscience, because there is none righteous, all of us were fools at one time or another, liars, etc. etc. et cetera....and Psalms 53:3 confirms, "All have turned away, they have together become corrupt, there is no one who does good, not even one."
And then there's Jesus' commandment to forgive, so it seems to me that our forgiveness would be consider a 'given' in any geometrical problem of reconciliation that needs to be solved. And so also can assume our forgiveness is a given if forgiveness is a given at all. It just seems to me that, to demand that anyone need to "ask" it of anyone other than God (who freely gives to anyone that asks in earnest), well, I'm having a time with the right word I'm wanting to use for that (because I'm wanting to use the word "offensive" but too sure that saying that would offend).
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,454
4,105
113
#15
About six years ago, two people I loved dearly betrayed my trust and set out to ruin my life. It was intentional and on purpose. Even after six years, neither has said they are sorry.

I tried to forgive right away, but Satan saw my weakness of anger and exploited it. I was utterly alone with God while fighting the battle. I put up a good fight and finally was able, under the Lord's direction, to refrain from retaliation.

There's a misconception about forgiveness that is prevalent in the Church. It claims that you must somehow find a way to befriend your attacker. Try telling that to a 17-year-old girl who has been raped.

Instead, forgiveness means releasing them from your wrath because you are not the judge, jury, and executioner—God is.

Forgiveness means that you treat them like any other stranger you would show courtesy to at the local drugstore. While you can open the door for them and let them pass ahead of you, it doesn't mean you will invite them for dinner.

You're neither friend nor foe. You are just indifferent to them.
that is a very good point


What forgiveness is not:

  • It is not a comprise
  • it is not excusing what was done to you
  • it doesn't mean you have to allow them to do it again
Forgiveness allows you to continue with God so all your time, effort, and talent is not wasted on a person(s) who doesn't even know or care that you are mad. You spend your whole life making someone else pay for what an ex-husband, ex-wife, ex-girl, or boyfriend, etc.

you life is consumed to where to can't move on.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
6,164
1,767
113
#16
@CS1 provided good reason to forgive, I can't think of any better reason, for our self. However, only God knows how considering a matter forgiven and forgotten, even if your mind keeps bringing it up to you, might affect the one you extend forgiveness and treating it though it never happened, thrown into the darkest depths of the sea as far as you are concerned.
I wanted to edit my previous post in particular to a word that I felt I shouldn't have left unbolded, but I tarried about it longer than 5 minutes.
Psalms 53:3 confirms, "All have turned away, they have together become corrupt, there is no one who does good, not even one."
If Jesus took your sin upon Himself, and took it to the grave with Him, and left it there when He rose again... who are we to carry any more burden or expect others to bear theirs any longer (I've been meditating on what bearing one another's burdens is intended to mean). I leave the Holy Spirit to this work, since He is better qualified to affect the needed change.
 

MsMediator

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2022
980
629
93
#17
There's a misconception about forgiveness that is prevalent in the Church. It claims that you must somehow find a way to befriend your attacker. Try telling that to a 17-year-old girl who has been raped.

Instead, forgiveness means releasing them from your wrath because you are not the judge, jury, and executioner—God is.

Forgiveness means that you treat them like any other stranger you would show courtesy to at the local drugstore. While you can open the door for them and let them pass ahead of you, it doesn't mean you will invite them for dinner.
The girl is not going to be able to be courteous to the rapist/open the door for the rapist at the drugstore, or treat him like any other stranger. Having this expectation of the girl is too much. If he went to prison and repents, maybe she'll feel differently.
 
May 17, 2024
11
1
3
#18
it's not about forgiveness.. but mainly about not cursing the person... it can also be your enemy... the main thing is not to curse him... otherwise he will do bad things to you on the astral plane and the problem will continue further... .we need to be equal with everyone ..not be divided with anyone...to rise from here
 

MaryM

Well-known member
Nov 25, 2022
458
263
63
#19
Gonna share a story that happen to me maybe 10y ago you don't have to believe it. Some one a believer one say was saying the most hurtful things you could say to someone you love. Right in the middle of it this love come over me. I've only felt this twice in 55y in the lord. Lol I remember saying "this is what love your enemy means". Well how to explain it. I loved them. I wanted to treat her like a queen. No it was like getting this treasure you always wanted. It was a reward for me to do everything for them. If they tread me like that for the rest of our life's.. I never gave that a thought. To just love them to do everything for them. The part I still do not understand is how to love them never ever getting anything from them in return. You didn't expect anything.

To love them like that was a reward. Then to think were more blessed when we give then when we receive. Yeah.. in this world its twisted not like it is where are Father is. As fast as it came it lifted was gone.

The point is.. I personally believe we can only in this world go so far and then He takes over only if we allow Him to. In my personal life.. I told someone that put the past under the blood of Jesus. I said to them I forgive you yet I wish I had never met you. So if someone asked me did I truly forgive them? No. For me if I hurt my lord I ask I repent He forgives as if I never did it. I need Him for that part when it comes to others. I am human and I don't know how to never remember. The enemy will always try to bring it up.. we but it under the blood
Of course I believe you, what you have experienced is the love of the Holy Spirit. This is because you were open to Him. That is fantastic. I truly respect what you have written because it is truth.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,957
5,194
113
#20
Romans 3 contains an amalgamation of references to various Psalms beginning with Psalm 51, when Nathan the prophet came to David after his adultery with Bathsheba, which begins with a prayer to create in him a clean heart, and Romans 3 specifical cites Psalm 51:4 which says, "Against You, You only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight..." The next reference is that of fools saying there is no God which includes the first three introductive verses of both Psalm 14 and 53, and the context of Romans 3: 9-19 tells us why David could say such a thing in good conscience, because there is none righteous, all of us were fools at one time or another, liars, etc. etc. et cetera....and Psalms 53:3 confirms, "All have turned away, they have together become corrupt, there is no one who does good, not even one."
And then there's Jesus' commandment to forgive, so it seems to me that our forgiveness would be consider a 'given' in any geometrical problem of reconciliation that needs to be solved. And so also can assume our forgiveness is a given if forgiveness is a given at all. It just seems to me that, to demand that anyone need to "ask" it of anyone other than God (who freely gives to anyone that asks in earnest), well, I'm having a time with the right word I'm wanting to use for that (because I'm wanting to use the word "offensive" but too sure that saying that would offend).
“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:12‬ ‭

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3‬ ‭

“In Christ “

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39‬ ‭

old sinful man dies with Jesus new righteous man is born in him

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-27, 29‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Romans 3 contains an amalgamation of references to various Psalms beginning with Psalm 51, when Nathan the prophet came to David after his adultery with Bathsheba, which begins with a prayer to create in him a clean heart, and Romans 3 specifical cites Psalm 51:4 which says, "Against You, You only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight..." The next reference is that of fools saying there is no God which includes the first three introductive verses of both Psalm 14 and 53, and the context of Romans 3: 9-19 tells us why David could say such a thing in good conscience, because there is none righteous, all of us were fools at one time or another, liars, etc. etc. et cetera....and Psalms 53:3 confirms, "All have turned away, they have together become corrupt, there is no one who does good, not even one."
And then there's Jesus' commandment to forgive, so it seems to me that our forgiveness would be consider a 'given' in any geometrical problem of reconciliation that needs to be solved. And so also can assume our forgiveness is a given if forgiveness is a given at all. It just seems to me that, to demand that anyone need to "ask" it of anyone other than God (who freely gives to anyone that asks in earnest), well, I'm having a time with the right word I'm wanting to use for that (because I'm wanting to use the word "offensive" but too sure that saying that would offend).
yes Paul’s doctrine comes directly from the things Moses and all the prophets said including psalms of David

pauls words under oath


“Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: but shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judæa, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

that Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭26:19-20, 22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s the same thing Jesus and Peter said regarding Moses writings and the prophets regarding him and the gospel . Paul is always looking back at the law and prophets seeing the witness of Christ in them