Salvation is... personal?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Aug 5, 2013
624
2
0
#1
If I were to ask you, "How do I become saved?" you would almost certainly quote Acts 16:31. "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". Right? If you were ever in AWANA, you may remember that as Acts 16:31a, meaning that this line isn't the whole verse. It goes on to say "you and your household".

Whenever I bring up this inconvenient phrase "you and your household", I'm inevitably told that this phrase only applies to the jailer in the specific bible story that this verse is pulled from, and I'm also often reminded that I "pulled it out of context". Yet it would seem that the same argument could be made about the first half of the verse, that it was pulled out of context and applied only specifically to the jailer and not to the population at large. The first half of the verse is in a different context and directed at a different audience? Both phrases are in the same sentence!

So I'm going to make the argument that salvation saves "one's household". I would obviously cite Acts 16:31 as my reference to prove this point. Could you cite a verse that says that one's household does not become saved when you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ? I'm doubtful, but feel free to do so below.

Is my argument well-supported? You may very well say that it alludes to only a single verse, one that you feel has a context that I must be misunderstanding. So how could I possibly make such an argument based on one single phrase in one single verse? Here's the kicker: there are almost countless examples in the bible that suggest that such salvation would be consistent with God's nature. We'd have to look to the Old Testament, but I'm told repeatedly that the god of the Old Testament is the same as the god of the New, and that his nature doesn't change.

God's blessings are sometimes through generations. Abraham's faith caused God to bless all Jews, and God specifically and repeatedly stated that the Jews would be blessed because of the actions of their forefather Abraham. David's line would allegedly never end (and include the Messiah) because of David's personal actions.

Likewise, God's curses are sometimes carried through generations. The Moabites and Ammonites were cursed because of the birth conditions of Moab and Ben-Ammi. "The Mark of Cain" and similar curse on Ham were both said to be carried by all of their descendants. Even the ten commandments contain a short diatribe on how God punishes sins to the third and fourth generation.

So as we can see, God is the type of person who blesses and curses "one's household" for the actions taken by a single individual. So "saving one's household" is consistent with His nature. So I challenge you again -- can you show counter-evidence that shows that salvation is only personal?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#2
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
(Act 16:30-31)

I take this to mean that the promise of salvation is to the family as well as the jailer upon each of their belief.
I've had a step dad depart without Christ and an adopted atheist father that is ready to pass without Christ.
 
Sep 30, 2014
2,329
102
0
#3
You have free will, which is personal, God does as He needs for His reasons.
 

Dan58

Senior Member
Nov 13, 2013
1,991
338
83
#4
God's blessings are sometimes through generations. Abraham's faith caused God to bless all Jews, and God specifically and repeatedly stated that the Jews would be blessed because of the actions of their forefather Abraham. David's line would allegedly never end (and include the Messiah) because of David's personal actions.

So as we can see, God is the type of person who blesses and curses "one's household" for the actions taken by a single individual. So "saving one's household" is consistent with His nature. So I challenge you again -- can you show counter-evidence that shows that salvation is only personal?
Consider King David's household, were Amnon, Tamar, and Absalom blessed? Are all Jews blessed because of Abraham? Consider the Nazi death camps. A household is blessed because of the faithfulness that a patriarch presents them, but its an individuals acceptance of the same God which solidifies those blessings. Generations are blessed for as long as they keep the same faith, but they are also cursed for as many generation which choose to rebel.

Salvation is personal, in that its an individual choice of every believer. But salvation is also public, in that Jesus publicly called every sinner to repentance and died for every believers sin. jmo
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#5
Is it not a blessing to the household when the drunk father get's saved and the wife and children see the change in their father. Then they say in their heart I want what dad has?
 
Jul 25, 2013
1,329
19
0
#6
Could you cite a verse that says that one's household does not become saved when you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ? I'm doubtful, but feel free to do so below.QUOTE /Starcrash
How about this one: Gen 19:
26But his wife, from behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
Kinda looks like she didn't get saved but Lot and kids did. Because she PERSONALLY DIDN'T BELIEVE the Word of the Lord.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#7
Could you cite a verse that says that one's household does not become saved when you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ? I'm doubtful, but feel free to do so below.QUOTE /Starcrash
How about this one: Gen 19:
26But his wife, from behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
Kinda looks like she didn't get saved but Lot and kids did. Because she PERSONALLY DIDN'T BELIEVE the Word of the Lord.
No, if a person gets saved it does not mean that there household is saved. Paul gave permission to the gentiles that got saved to divorce their unbelieving spouse. But recommended that they stay in that bondage as their spouse may get saved by the testimony of the believer and also said that the children are protected, not saved but protected, His word is clean. Meaning that they will not be bent on certain sins and have a receiving heart.
 
Aug 5, 2013
624
2
0
#8
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
(Act 16:30-31)

I take this to mean that the promise of salvation is to the family as well as the jailer upon each of their belief.
I've had a step dad depart without Christ and an adopted atheist father that is ready to pass without Christ.
Of course you "take this to mean" what you've personally interpreted it to mean. But you're adding something to the scripture that isn't there, avoiding the obvious interpretation and furthermore ignoring everything I said about God's nature. Denial may make it easier to keep believing what you do, but it's hardly convincing to someone else if winning them over is your actual aim.
 
Aug 5, 2013
624
2
0
#9
You have free will, which is personal, God does as He needs for His reasons.
"You have free will"? What does that have to do with how God metes out punishments and blessings? I'm doubtful that you even read my post.
 
Aug 5, 2013
624
2
0
#10
Consider King David's household, were Amnon, Tamar, and Absalom blessed? Are all Jews blessed because of Abraham? Consider the Nazi death camps. A household is blessed because of the faithfulness that a patriarch presents them, but its an individuals acceptance of the same God which solidifies those blessings. Generations are blessed for as long as they keep the same faith, but they are also cursed for as many generation which choose to rebel.

Salvation is personal, in that its an individual choice of every believer. But salvation is also public, in that Jesus publicly called every sinner to repentance and died for every believers sin. jmo
You're just pointing out contradictions with King David and Abraham. I didn't cite their blessings, but check these out. I wasn't making up the fact that blessings were carried on through generations. Nor would it even make sense for these blessings to only apply to those who "choose to rebel", because it directly contradicts the idea that they're being blessed based on someone else as the scripture says.

I also notice that you didn't even attempt to explain why Acts says that a household will be saved through one's salvation. I didn't want "jyo", I wanted you to try to get the best translation of this passage as possible.
 
Aug 5, 2013
624
2
0
#11
Is it not a blessing to the household when the drunk father get's saved and the wife and children see the change in their father. Then they say in their heart I want what dad has?
That's cherry-picking. We have no idea whether the jailer was a drunk or was evil to the outside observer, and it certainly isn't true of everyone who gets saved. You're deliberately trying to redefine how one's household would gain salvation, and you also ignored the entire argument about God's nature.
 
Sep 30, 2014
2,329
102
0
#12
You asked if Salvation is personal, it is.
How God does with His power, is solely His responsibility and His job, why worry about that?
We will never understand what God knows and His reasonings, we have to focus on our walks with Him.
 
Sep 30, 2014
2,329
102
0
#13
Ones household gains salvation, when done correctly God blesses it, God being the foundation of your house "the rock" you build upon, of course the man is head of his house, therefore if he is a God loving man, his wife and offspring follow suit.
The house would be blessed
 
Aug 5, 2013
624
2
0
#14
Could you cite a verse that says that one's household does not become saved when you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ? I'm doubtful, but feel free to do so below.QUOTE /Starcrash
How about this one: Gen 19:
26But his wife, from behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
Kinda looks like she didn't get saved but Lot and kids did. Because she PERSONALLY DIDN'T BELIEVE the Word of the Lord.
You're equivocating "salvation" there... I was referring to it in the eternal sense... but you're still wrong. Lot's wife and family were saved from Sodom and Gomorrah because of Lot, which you'd notice from verses 12 and 13. The angels said "Do you have [family] here?" These others obviously weren't saved because they were individually righteous, but on Lot's behalf.

It's true that Lot's wife was killed and that nobody else in her family suffered for her actions alone, so even if the blessings were poured on a household for one, the punishment wasn't -- but that would make her the exception, not the rule. Did I not cite the ten commandments as containing an explicit statement from God that he punishes children for the sins of their parents? Are you not familiar with the story of Jonah, how several men almost died in a storm just because Jonah was on their ship? How about the story where the Israelites couldn't conquer Ai because of the theft by Achan alone? There are many stories in the Old Testament where a group is punished because of the deeds of one person.

So the story of Lot's wife would only serve to show you that God is inconsistent if anything. But while it attacks the arguments about "God's nature", it still has nothing to do with whether salvation extends to one's family.
 
Aug 5, 2013
624
2
0
#15
Ones household gains salvation, when done correctly God blesses it, God being the foundation of your house "the rock" you build upon, of course the man is head of his house, therefore if he is a God loving man, his wife and offspring follow suit.
The house would be blessed
I don't care what your opinion is. I know the general consensus among Christians is that salvation is personal. I went through quite a bit of work to show that it makes more sense that the entire household will gain salvation.

Besides, why do you think that "believing in the Lord Jesus Christ" works exactly as said? Have you tried to manufacture an excuse for how "belief in the Lord Jesus Christ" is merely a side-effect to whatever truly makes a person saved? You're showing a clear bias, taking one phrase at face value while trying to get something metaphorical from the other one.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
26
48
#16
The bottom line is - if you repent from sin and turn towards the Lord, you will have salvation. That's the bottom line statement of the Bible, the NT in particular.

As to Acts 16, as much as you accuse crossnote of importing into the text, I think you do the same as well. There's nothing that demands the passage be read in such a way that somehow the jailer's belief acts as a real proxy to an absent belief amongst his family. The text merely makes the point that belief is the contingent factor for one to be saved (in this case, the jailer), and that is the same precondition (and offer) for not only him, but for his household.

This is supported by the fact that in the VERY NEXT VERSE, Paul and Silas preach the gospel to the jailer and to his household, and then he and his household are baptised. If it were only the jailer's faith that was important, there would be no need for the household to hear the gospel nor be baptised, correct? I think v.34 also basically says outright that the household believed 'with' him, which suggests something very different to him believing for them.

The thing to remember about the culture of the Bible is that the Hebrews (and even to a certain extent the Hellenistic world) had a much more communal understanding of the world than we in the West do. In fact, large portions of Africa, Asia, and the Middle East still have this understanding, for the most part (I have an Indian friend who was discussing this with me the other day - he's my age, and his family are basically trying to keep him from moving out, when almost every Western parent wants their kid gone ASAP!). Kids didn't move out until they got married and started a family, children often worked in the same careers as their parents, family life was emphasised, family identity was more meaningful than individual identity. Conversely, we emphasise independent agency, free will, making of yourself what you want, etc. We have to keep these ideas in our minds when looking at the Scriptures.

The Bible, to my mind, DOES emphasise individual responses to the Lord, but also is aware of the communal ramifications of belief (or unbelief). Sociologically, it makes perfect sense to say that certain behaviours are intergenerational. Children learn from their parents. I've seen Christian children be positive influences on their non-believing families (and in that way whole families have become Christian). I've also seen people (including Christians!) be negative influences on the rest of their families, in regards to salvation but also in regards to general life.

So when the Bible talks about intergenerational judgement or blessing, it's not really talking about it in a mechanistic kind of way (look at Jacob and Esau, for example), but it is saying something I feel that is true about reality - everyone has an opportunity to call on the Lord for salvation, and no one (e.g Paul, of all people!) is excluded from that offer by virtue of their genealogy, BUT obviously family, culture, etc can play a huge role not just in Christian living, but life in general.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
981
113
33
#17
Maybe it was a prophetic word? "If you believe, so will your family." Is it possible that what was said in regards to the family was an encouragement that his family shall be saved as well?
 
Sep 30, 2014
2,329
102
0
#18
I don't care what your opinion is. I know the general consensus among Christians is that salvation is personal. I went through quite a bit of work to show that it makes more sense that the entire household will gain salvation.

Besides, why do you think that "believing in the Lord Jesus Christ" works exactly as said? Have you tried to manufacture an excuse for how "belief in the Lord Jesus Christ" is merely a side-effect to whatever truly makes a person saved? You're showing a clear bias, taking one phrase at face value while trying to get something metaphorical from the other one.
Manufacturing excuses to say Jesus is merely a side effect to what makes one saved...??
If you don't care, so be it, I will speak truth!
And yes a personal relationship with Jesus is the only way
In Genesis, there speaking of being saved from a physical death, they were going to destroy the city.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#19
If I were to ask you, "How do I become saved?" you would almost certainly quote Acts 16:31.
"Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". Right? If you were ever in AWANA, you may remember that as Acts 16:31a, meaning that this line isn't the whole verse. It goes on to say
"you and your household".

Whenever I bring up this inconvenient phrase "you and your household", I'm inevitably told that this phrase only applies to the jailer in the specific bible story that this verse is pulled from, and I'm also often reminded that I "pulled it out of context". Yet it would seem that the same argument could be made about the first half of the verse, that it was pulled out of context and applied only specifically to the jailer and not to the population at large. The first half of the verse is in a different context and directed at a different audience? Both phrases are in the same sentence!

So I'm going to make the argument that salvation saves "one's household". I would obviously cite Acts 16:31 as my reference to prove this point.
Could you cite a verse that says that one's household does not become saved when you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ? I'm doubtful, but feel free to do so below.
Your unbelief makes the Bible a closed book to you.

Nevertheless, I will present the same concept in the NT:

"For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife
has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean,
but as it is, they are holy." (1Co 7:14)

"Sanctified" and "holy" mean set apart from uncleanness by being among God's people, where
they will participate in the physical blessings on God's people.

"Unclean" means not set apart, but among the unclean.

This is what is meant by "your household," they are set apart and will participate in God's care for his own.

And then let me add, the remedy for the blindness of your unbelief is above my pay grade.
 
Last edited:

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#20
Was it personal for the thief on the cross next to Jesus?

It most certainly was personal for me.

Salvation is not corporate.

For the cause of Christ
Roger