ROMANS 13 and submiting to the government...

[Dallas]

Ok, I need some feedback on this. Paul basically says that everyone should submit to the government "for there is no authority except by God"... ie God has put in place these authorities , and they are his servants. Therefore pay taxes etc. etc. .......

Well, what if the government that "rules" over the country you happen to live in is obviously corrupt ?? Like Sudan for example... where the government encourages the ethnic cleansing of Christians, should that christian seek the nearest soldier and offer his own head ?

Or an example closer to home... Are we to pay taxes if this health care bill passes and your tax money is then used for abortions by the thousands ?

This may sound extreme, but if we are to take this literally...Were the founding fathers of the U.S. decieved in thinking God was on there side as they fought for freedom from a tyrannical government, Since the goernment they fought against was put in place buy God ? Is fighting for freedom then wrong ?

I could go on and on... but surely Paul did not mean submit to your government...period, no matter what, did he ? What do you think ?

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

Ok, I need some feedback on this. Paul basically says that everyone should submit to the government "for there is no authority except by God"... ie God has put in place these authorities , and they are his servants. Therefore pay taxes etc. etc. .......

Well, what if the government that "rules" over the country you happen to live in is obviously corrupt ?? Like Sudan for example... where the government encourages the ethnic cleansing of Christians, should that christian seek the nearest soldier and offer his own head ?

Or an example closer to home... Are we to pay taxes if this health care bill passes and your tax money is then used for abortions by the thousands ?

This may sound extreme, but if we are to take this literally...Were the founding fathers of the U.S. decieved in thinking God was on there side as they fought for freedom from a tyrannical government, Since the goernment they fought against was put in place buy God ? Is fighting for freedom then wrong ?

I could go on and on... but surely Paul did not mean submit to your government...period, no matter what, did he ? What do you think ?

To a large extent yes, he did which is why you see far more christian martyrs in such countries than self professed "christian rebels". We the church,in proper context, are to be God's voice, hands and feet through out the world. When faced with great turmoil we are to lead prayer and intercession, not rebellions or assassination plots on ruthless oppressors.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

God placed boundaries for every structure of society: government, education/science, family, commerce and church (or if you prefer, faith). Within those boundaries, these structures have freedom, but must answer for the use of those freedoms. So, for instance, only the government is given the right to exact justice and to wage war. If any of these institutions capriciously reject those God-ordained boundaries, they become illegitimate. At that point the individual need not submit to those institutions.

 

[easygoing]

Governments were put in place by god to protect and serve the people and do right under gods law. If the governing authorities abuse their positions by distortion or betrayal it clearly says that they will answer for it. See psalm 2.

We are to submit to them and obey them as it says, whether or not we like it, because unless we want to come under the punishment of a government that already betrays god and the position god has given to them, that same government would not be bothered by destroying a person or persons going against their cause.

I don't pretend to like it, i actually hate thinking about what my tax dollars have been spent on by the government in the past, much less where that money will be going in the future. I try to do what i can by having my voice heard in protest to things that go against god and his will. signing petitions, writing my congressmen, state representatives, and the presidential office itself.

The healthcare bill is shrouded in secrecy and there is much that is already starting to come to the surface that many are opposed to and this is a fight that is far from over. The obama administration got in such a big hurry to see if they could push this bill through that they didn't take the time to go over it thoroughly and you watch because this thing is gonna turn around around and bite em in the behind. Anyway just remember that god knows each and every one of our hearts and our trust lies with him.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Ok, I need some feedback on this. Paul basically says that everyone should submit to the government "for there is no authority except by God"... ie God has put in place these authorities , and they are his servants. Therefore pay taxes etc. etc. .......

Satan is god of this world, but does Satan have Godly authority? No. Jesus was tempted by Satan who offered Him all the kingdoms of the world which he controlled so he could offer them, Jesus refused, this should be an example, no Christian should submit to worldly authority derived from Satan but only Godly appointed authority.

Well, what if the government that "rules" over the country you happen to live in is obviously corrupt ?? Like Sudan for example... where the government encourages the ethnic cleansing of Christians, should that christian seek the nearest soldier and offer his own head ?

You cannot serve Mammon and God at the same time.

Or an example closer to home... Are we to pay taxes if this health care bill passes and your tax money is then used for abortions by the thousands ?

Then you are compliant in the abortion of babies.

This may sound extreme, but if we are to take this literally...Were the founding fathers of the U.S. decieved in thinking God was on there side as they fought for freedom from a tyrannical government, Since the goernment they fought against was put in place buy God ? Is fighting for freedom then wrong ?

God created us to be free, know the truth and the truth shall set you free, if one submits to Satanic strongholds than they are compliant, we are told to war against Satanic strongholds not serve them.

I could go on and on... but surely Paul did not mean submit to your government...period, no matter what, did he ? What do you think ?

This is a problem in Christianity today, they serve a Satanic system of Babylon and not God, as long as they continue God will continue to punish them for their iniquities.

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

God placed boundaries for every structure of society: government, education/science, family, commerce and church (or if you prefer, faith). Within those boundaries, these structures have freedom, but must answer for the use of those freedoms. So, for instance, only the government is given the right to exact justice and to wage war. If any of these institutions capriciously reject those God-ordained boundaries, they become illegitimate. At that point the individual need not submit to those institutions.

I couldn't agree more. What we must understand is that for the christian, if we are truly submitted to our Lord and Savior, we look to Him to protect us and meet our needs during times of turmoil. Scripture tells us that we are not to worry about what we shall eat or wear because if we stay focus on God's best interests, He will assuredly address ours.

It is not the role of a christian to lead a rebellion or to attempt to dispense what we feel is justice. "Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord". We are to be the peacekeepers - the calm within the storm - ready to help anyone in their hour of need despite our own circumstances.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

I couldn't agree more. What we must understand is that for the christian, if we are truly submitted to our Lord and Savior, we look to Him to protect us and meet our needs during times of turmoil. Scripture tells us that we are not to worry about what we shall eat or wear because if we stay focus on God's best interests, He will assuredly address ours.

It is not the role of a christian to lead a rebellion or to attempt to dispense what we feel is justice. "Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord". We are to be the peacekeepers - the calm within the storm - ready to help anyone in their hour of need despite our own circumstances.

If a Christian does not stand for the truth and justice of God against the Satanic world system then he/she is not from God and not lead by the holy Spirit, Jesus Christ does not bring peace on earth but division and the sword, the Christian must hate the world kosmos and this word means literally world order, arrangement of a system designed by the enemy Satan and his children, if you do not war against this order than you are not one of His sheep, as the word says that when He returns will Christ find faith on earth at all? Where does it say we should follow Satan and his kosmos while paying pitiful lip service to Jesus? WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT?

"All day long I have stretched out My hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people"

We have today these unholy satanic, theiving, lying, murdering Governments, and little christians bow down and worship the false idols full of abominations, God's law no where to be found, and yet there has never been so many so-called 'christians', so many churchs, so many bibles and yet Babylon is rebuilt, and Satan has never had so much power, that he is laughing his head off! Unless you repent of this world order than you shall all likewise perish, show yourself approved, awake and arise and serve the one true God, the Lord of Hosts. Amen.

 

[MahogonySnail]

This may sound extreme, but if we are to take this literally...Were the founding fathers of the U.S. decieved in thinking God was on there side as they fought for freedom from a tyrannical government, Since the goernment they fought against was put in place buy God ? Is fighting for freedom then wrong ?

that's a good point. Many countries which had revolutions are now atheist eg France, Russia...USA? Something to think about .

 

[jesus_be4_religion]

Jesus said give unto Caezar what is Caezar's and give unto God what is God's. Our life is God's and noone has the right to take it unless you are willing to give it for the glory of God. When David was told to stop praying and Paul was told to stop preaching both disobeyed the government, because it was not their right to steal what was deserved to God, which is prayer and service to him.

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

If a Christian does not stand for the truth and justice of God against the Satanic world system then he/she is not from God and not lead by the holy Spirit, Jesus Christ does not bring peace on earth but division and the sword, the Christian must hate the world kosmos and this word means literally world order, arrangement of a system designed by the enemy Satan and his children, if you do not war against this order than you are not one of His sheep, as the word says that when He returns will Christ find faith on earth at all? Where does it say we should follow Satan and his kosmos while paying pitiful lip service to Jesus? WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT?

"All day long I have stretched out My hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people"

We have today these unholy satanic, theiving, lying, murdering Governments, and little christians bow down and worship the false idols full of abominations, God's law no where to be found, and yet there has never been so many so-called 'christians', so many churchs, so many bibles and yet Babylon is rebuilt, and Satan has never had so much power, that he is laughing his head off! Unless you repent of this world order than you shall all likewise perish, show yourself approved, awake and arise and serve the one true God, the Lord of Hosts. Amen.

Please read the post that I was agreeing with to fully understand what it is I was saying...

God placed boundaries for every structure of society: government, education/science, family, commerce and church (or if you prefer, faith). Within those boundaries, these structures have freedom, but must answer for the use of those freedoms. So, for instance, only the government is given the right to exact justice and to wage war. If any of these institutions capriciously reject those God-ordained boundaries, they become illegitimate. At that point the individual need not submit to those institutions.

I have no problem with standing up for what's right just as long as it is done in the right way. Martin Luther King Jr. and his peaceful approach in protesting for equal rights being a good example of such. However, I feel that a lot of believers today tend to confuse their own political biases with actually standing up for what is morally right.

While I have no problem with taking a stand against abortion, gay marrage, prayer in school, and other controversial issues that I believe are close to God's heart, we should not try to use those issues to back a political party that is every bit as morally corrupt as the party we choose to oppose.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

I couldn't agree more. What we must understand is that for the christian, if we are truly submitted to our Lord and Savior, we look to Him to protect us and meet our needs during times of turmoil. Scripture tells us that we are not to worry about what we shall eat or wear because if we stay focus on God's best interests, He will assuredly address ours.

It is not the role of a christian to lead a rebellion or to attempt to dispense what we feel is justice. "Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord". We are to be the peacekeepers - the calm within the storm - ready to help anyone in their hour of need despite our own circumstances.

Thank you. I agree. the possiblity of a government or church or business steps out of bounds does not release us from our personal accountablity to God.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

If a Christian does not stand for the truth and justice of God against the Satanic world system then he/she is not from God and not lead by the holy Spirit, Jesus Christ does not bring peace on earth but division and the sword, the Christian must hate the world kosmos and this word means literally world order, arrangement of a system designed by the enemy Satan and his children, if you do not war against this order than you are not one of His sheep, as the word says that when He returns will Christ find faith on earth at all? Where does it say we should follow Satan and his kosmos while paying pitiful lip service to Jesus? WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT?

"All day long I have stretched out My hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people"

We have today these unholy satanic, theiving, lying, murdering Governments, and little christians bow down and worship the false idols full of abominations, God's law no where to be found, and yet there has never been so many so-called 'christians', so many churchs, so many bibles and yet Babylon is rebuilt, and Satan has never had so much power, that he is laughing his head off! Unless you repent of this world order than you shall all likewise perish, show yourself approved, awake and arise and serve the one true God, the Lord of Hosts. Amen.

And what is your status with the government of New Zealand? I do not mind differing opinions but there are two things that I cannot abide:
1. The man who pretends to be something he is not, such as being a Greek scholar when they are not.
2. a person who takes a radical position for his own ego.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

And what is your status with the government of New Zealand? I do not mind differing opinions but there are two things that I cannot abide:
1. The man who pretends to be something he is not, such as being a Greek scholar when they are not.
2. a person who takes a radical position for his own ego.

Sorry, Australia.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

And what is your status with the government of New Zealand? I do not mind differing opinions but there are two things that I cannot abide:
1. The man who pretends to be something he is not, such as being a Greek scholar when they are not.
2. a person who takes a radical position for his own ego.

None of these relate to me in any way.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Please read the post that I was agreeing with to fully understand what it is I was saying...



I have no problem with standing up for what's right just as long as it is done in the right way. Martin Luther King Jr. and his peaceful approach in protesting for equal rights being a good example of such. However, I feel that a lot of believers today tend to confuse their own political biases with actually standing up for what is morally right.

While I have no problem with taking a stand against abortion, gay marrage, prayer in school, and other controversial issues that I believe are close to God's heart, we should not try to use those issues to back a political party that is every bit as morally corrupt as the party we choose to oppose.

No, I don't agree with the comments, our role is peace within the body of Christ, we are not to make peace with the world (Sermon on the Mount is meant only for within the body of Christ).

And I also think Martin Luther King was hypocrite and a communist subverter.

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

No, I don't agree with the comments, our role is peace within the body of Christ, we are not to make peace with the world (Sermon on the Mount is meant only for within the body of Christ).

Are we not the body of Christ? Did Christ lead a rebellion against Rome as many of His countrymen believed, hoped and prayed that the Messiah would? No He did not. Why? Because He had a higher purpose, the salvation of the world. His purpose is our purpose and if we are truly His then we are willing to give up our lives for His purposes, whether it means dying to our own worldly desires and / or dying a martyr's death on the missions field.

We are not called to lead rebellions for the simple fact that Christ's idea of leadership and that of the world's are two completely differently mindsets. Christ did not exalt Himself despite the fact that He was equal with God. Christ came to serve and to give his life for dying world. Why? Because His motives were holy and righteous motivated by love and compassion. So should our motives be.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Are we not the body of Christ? Did Christ lead a rebellion against Rome as many of His countrymen believed,

No, He lead a rebellion against the Judean Herodians.

hoped and prayed that the Messiah would? No He did not. Why? Because He had a higher purpose, the salvation of the world. His purpose is our purpose and if we are truly His then we are willing to give up our lives for His purposes, whether it means dying to our own worldly desires and / or dying a martyr's death on the missions field.

We are not called to lead rebellions for the simple fact that Christ's idea of leadership and that of the world's are two completely differently mindsets. Christ did not exalt Himself despite the fact that He was equal with God. Christ came to serve and to give his life for dying world. Why? Because His motives were holy and righteous motivated by love and compassion. So should our motives be.

"Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"

True Christians have never submitted to the world order but have fought against it whether it be with truth, justice or the sword, Christian is a representative of Christ on earth, and we are to do the will of God on earth, God is not a pacifist.

 

[MahogonySnail]

I agree with Cup, otherwise christians would have to take th emark of the beast if we were to submit to all governing authorities.

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

I agree with Cup, otherwise christians would have to take th emark of the beast if we were to submit to all governing authorities.

Read the entire the entire thread. No one said that christians have to "submit" to anyone but the will of God. However, what is implied is that there is no room in the will of God for man taking justice into his owns hands thus leading a rebellion or an assassination attempt. Our role is to be God's voice, hands and feet during times of great turmoil and oppression.

We are to not only preach the love of God and salvation but we are also to express the love of God through our words and deeds. As I said before, we are called to be the calm in the middle of the storm. To walk by faith and not by sight just as Elisha did when surrounded by armies of the enemy. We are to address the needs of the people from a spiritual perspective as we'll as from a physical one.

This idea that we should lead rebellions thus giving in to our own fleshly desires to dispense our own brand of justice or vindication or whatever is utter nonsense. God has called us to a live a life beyond that. How do we accomplish it? By becoming servants, making ourselves "low" and trusting God to deliver us in our hour of need. Then and only then will God chose to exalt us just as He did with Joseph in Egypt, Daniel in Babylon and Esther in Persia. Let's not forget Shadrack, Meshack & Abednigo...

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

No, He lead a rebellion against the Judean Herodians.



"Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"

True Christians have never submitted to the world order but have fought against it whether it be with truth, justice or the sword, Christian is a representative of Christ on earth, and we are to do the will of God on earth, God is not a pacifist.

Christ "rebelled" against no one. Herod and the priesthood that he established was illegitimate. If Christ was guilty of anything it was that He was a radical reformer just as John the Baptizer before Him. Both understood and observed the Torah as God originally intended it to be, not as the religion of Israel had evolved into due to exile and centuries of compromise and oppression.