Conditional Salvation

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Mar 28, 2014
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#21
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Seems to roundly refute your assumption.

btw, we endure, due to the fact we are saved.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition;.......indicates that some draw back unto perdition...from a saved position...

them that believe to the saving of the soul.......indicates that some believe to the saving of the soul...that is until they die or Christ comes whichever comes first...

the fact that we are saved by grace through faith means our faith must continue to the end...that is how we endure...


I find it difficult to transfer the confidence Paul has in the church at Philippi, to anyone today since Paul does not know you...
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#22
The only condition is faith in the work of the cross. there is nothing else, except man made lies.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#23
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition;.......indicates that some draw back unto perdition...from a saved position...

them that believe to the saving of the soul.......indicates that some believe to the saving of the soul...that is until they die or Christ comes whichever comes first...

the fact that we are saved by grace through faith means our faith must continue to the end...that is how we endure...


I find it difficult to transfer the confidence Paul has in the church at Philippi, to anyone today since Paul does not know you...
Your logic is jumping to assumptions.
The author simply says 'we are not of them...' does not say what group 'them' is; he only says we are not of 'them' .
Christ is faithful to the end, not 'our' faith...

John 6:37, 39, 44 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Scripture + human reason=your opinion.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#24
Get em cross get em. In love I mean
 
Mar 28, 2014
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#25
Your logic is jumping to assumptions.
The author simply says 'we are not of them...' does not say what group 'them' is; he only says we are not of 'them' .
Christ is faithful to the end, not 'our' faith...

John 6:37, 39, 44 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Scripture + human reason=your opinion.
them that shrink back (group).......them that have faith unto the saving of the soul (group)

[SUP]38 [/SUP]But my righteous one shall live by faith: And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.



[SUP]
John 6:37, 39, 44 speaks of those who come to Christ....not those who draw back.....


45 [/SUP]It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#26
them that shrink back (group).......them that have faith unto the saving of the soul (group)

[SUP]38 [/SUP]But my righteous one shall live by faith: And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.



[SUP]
John 6:37, 39, 44 speaks of those who come to Christ....not those who draw back.....


45 [/SUP]It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Group? Yes!
Which group?

Not this group...

John 6:37, 39 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
aka...the Church, His Body.
 
Sep 16, 2014
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#27
Hold on there a minute.."omniscience of God is still factored by choices of men" . This statement takes away the omniscience of God. The omniscience of God is that he knows ALL things past present and future all at one time as in right here right now. You are saying by this one statement that God has no idea what we are going to do. If God is only omniscient by our choices then that means we can take God by surprise as to what we might do. Not only do you take away God's omniscience but you take away God's Sovereignty. You put us in control not God. By removing any little bit of the incommunicable attributes of God then God is no longer God.

You just made God revolve around us not us revolve around God.
I realize how probably few would dare question God's omniscience, but especially in Sunday School settings there's at least one challenge about that posed to me each year. I won't defend it now. The reason is simply being embarrassed not coming up with absolute scripture support. Many verses declare how God knows all that IS, and of course all that was. He is linked to knowing dispositions while twins are in the womb, like with Jacob and Esau. Well, that is still an IS in that case. Can you show some verses in context proving God allows Himself to know the outcome of every choice people will be faced with? Attempting to come back with a good lesson to support omniscience, I got that study affected by the fact God chooses to forget forgiven sins, so that information is beyond Him forever. He chooses to do that. That alone reduces omniscience, else He really doesn't forget some things. I think He does in fact leave some of the drama with us, all of us often changing our minds multiple times a day. What matters is the final decision so action(s" can be taken. It isn't that God can't know all that, but I doubt He gives effort to retain foolishness day in and out. A benefit of being God must surely be ability to control all your thoughts, casting down vain imaginations, and idle things that are meaningless like how many times I bit down on some gum today. In ministry to troubled people I am presented a lot of awful imaginations and extreme vanity told to me that sometimes are very hard to cast out, being too odd or mysterious. I mull their thoughts a bit to see if there's a clue about what bothers them most, then "spit it out" as quickly as possible.

With His children whose hearts are gladly open to God I believe He delights to fellowship alongside our pitiful contributions of conversation.

Sovereignty is another one. Sure, God could exercise total sovereignty, but then He could be accused by Satan as causing wars and pestilence, etc. He actually gave Adam sovereignty over creation until he sinned, then Satan became earth's lord until Jesus came. Satan's prize was power of the fear of death.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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#28
Group? Yes!
Which group?

Not this group...

John 6:37, 39 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
aka...the Church, His Body.
and you say I play silly games.....there is no third group....them that shrink back (group 1)

them that have faith unto the saving of the soul (group 2)this is the same group you are referring to (church)
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#29
Paul was writing to a people who believed some Jewish Christians who thought gentiles should first obey all of what Jews had been told to do before Christ was crucified and Jew and gentile became one under Christ. We are reading it as gentiles who think anything Jewish is Judaism we wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.

Because of these entirely different viewpoints, we are not going to be able to understand what Paul is saying in Galatians.
Yes it can be understood what Paul is saying to the Galatians. Paul converted them with the gospel truth, false Judiazing teachers lead the Galatians astray back to the OT law falsely teaching the Galatians they had to be circumcised according to that law to be justified. So Paul condemns them (fallen from grace) for leaving the NT gospel by which they were justified.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#30
The only condition is faith in the work of the cross. there is nothing else, except man made lies.
Faith saves, not faith only and iff one quits meeting the condition of having faith he becomes lost.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#31
The Greek present tense:
The present tense usually denotes continuous kind of action. It shows 'action in progress' or 'a state of persistence.' When used in the indicative mood, the present tense denotes action taking place or going on in the present time.
Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)

THe Greek present tense generally gets overlooked by Eternal Securists:



Jn 6:27 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

If one quits coming to Christ he will be cast out

Jn 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

If one quits believing he can perish.
The verb "should" in the subjunctive mood often gets overlooked by Eternal Securists. Subjunctive mood: "The subjunctive mood indicates probability or objective possibility. The action of the verb will possibly happen, depending on certain objective factors or circumstances. It is oftentimes used in conditional statements (i.e. 'If...then...' clauses) or in purpose clauses."

So one may possibly perish or not depending on the circumstance if he continues (present tense) to believe.

Jn 6:35,40 "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth (present tense) on me shall never thirst. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which (present)the Son, and believeth (present tense) on him, may (subjunctive mood) have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

One "MAY" have everlasting life depending on if he continues to believe.

Jn 11:26 "And whosoever liveth (present) and believeth (present) in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

If one quits living and believing in Christ can die.

Mt 7:24 "
Therefore whosoever heareth (present) these sayings of mine, and doeth (present) them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:"

If one quits hearing and doing he is likened to the foolish man, verse 26.

Mt 7:21 "No
t every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth (present) the will of my Father which is in heaven."

The ones that quit doing do not enter the kingdom of heaven.

1 Jn 3:7 "
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth(present) righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."

One must continue to do righteousness to continue to be righteous. If one quits doing righteousness he is no longer of God, 1 Jn 3:10.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#32
God imputes His righteousness to the believer. Mans righteousness is never good enough to please God.

Your understanding of the scriptures in wrong based on a failed philosophy of corrupt men.

The only way a man can be righteous is for God to make him righteous.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
E

elf3

Guest
#33
I realize how probably few would dare question God's omniscience, but especially in Sunday School settings there's at least one challenge about that posed to me each year. I won't defend it now. The reason is simply being embarrassed not coming up with absolute scripture support. Many verses declare how God knows all that IS, and of course all that was. He is linked to knowing dispositions while twins are in the womb, like with Jacob and Esau. Well, that is still an IS in that case. Can you show some verses in context proving God allows Himself to know the outcome of every choice people will be faced with? Attempting to come back with a good lesson to support omniscience, I got that study affected by the fact God chooses to forget forgiven sins, so that information is beyond Him forever. He chooses to do that. That alone reduces omniscience, else He really doesn't forget some things. I think He does in fact leave some of the drama with us, all of us often changing our minds multiple times a day. What matters is the final decision so action(s" can be taken. It isn't that God can't know all that, but I doubt He gives effort to retain foolishness day in and out. A benefit of being God must surely be ability to control all your thoughts, casting down vain imaginations, and idle things that are meaningless like how many times I bit down on some gum today. In ministry to troubled people I am presented a lot of awful imaginations and extreme vanity told to me that sometimes are very hard to cast out, being too odd or mysterious. I mull their thoughts a bit to see if there's a clue about what bothers them most, then "spit it out" as quickly as possible.

With His children whose hearts are gladly open to God I believe He delights to fellowship alongside our pitiful contributions of conversation.

Sovereignty is another one. Sure, God could exercise total sovereignty, but then He could be accused by Satan as causing wars and pestilence, etc. He actually gave Adam sovereignty over creation until he sinned, then Satan became earth's lord until Jesus came. Satan's prize was power of the fear of death.
When God says He forgets our sin it doesn't mean that He doesn't "remember" them anymore. What this means is God doesn't "dwell" on them anymore. When telling us how to forgive He tells us the same thing. Now we as humans have a really hard time sometimes not dwelling on things done against us. God however in His Sovereignty wills Himself not to dwell on our sins we have repented of. He doesn't "forget" them He just doesn't dwell on them.

I'll be back to try and answer you other question later when I have more time. Not saying I am right you are wrong for if I am wrong in my understanding I'll admit it. Family is waking up which means my "quiet time" is over lol.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#34
God imputes His righteousness to the believer. Mans righteousness is never good enough to please God.

Your understanding of the scriptures in wrong based on a failed philosophy of corrupt men.

The only way a man can be righteous is for God to make him righteous.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
The obedient believer is put into Christ, Hen 5:9; Gal 3:27 where he is covered by Christ's perfect righteousness. But if one quits believing he falls from Christ becoming lost in his own unrighteousness.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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#35
Group? Yes!
Which group?

Not this group...

John 6:37, 39 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
aka...the Church, His Body.
A gross misapplication of John 10:39. Vs 39 has nothing to do with believers or church or elect. It has to do with what was given to Christ which is everything, aligns with Col 1:20. Christ redeemed the world and everything in it. The vs you need is 40, those that see and believe will be raised to be with Him. The word "it" in vs 39 actually refers to our natures. Christ by His Incarnation, took on our mortal natures to raise them to life, immortality. He did that for all men since we all have the same nature, unless you care to posit that we as human beings don't all have the same nature.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#36
The obedient believer is put into Christ, Hen 5:9; Gal 3:27 where he is covered by Christ's perfect righteousness. But if one quits believing he falls from Christ becoming lost in his own unrighteousness.
False philosophy.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For God made Christ Who knew no sin to be sin for us that we who knew no righteousness might be made the very righteousness of God in Him.

We are by virtue of the new birth new creatures in Christ. We have a new nature after the Spirit. We as we must act according to our nature. When lost in sin we follow our sin nature. Now with newness of life in Christ we follow our new Spiritual nature. Yes these two natures war against one another but Christ has promised that as He was victorious He will make us also the victors over sin, death and hell.

Since by your own testimony you have never received the Holy Spirit you cannot know these things and continue to operate in darkness. There is still time for today is the day of salvation to those who will receive Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Feb 21, 2012
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#37
Faith saves, not faith only and iff one quits meeting the condition of having faith he becomes lost.
How does one who has been saved by faith in Jesus Christ and faith only, 'fall back' or 'shrink back' from faith in Jesus Christ? Doesn't say that they are in danger of losing salvation - it says: "my soul shall have no pleasure in him" - To believe that YOUR works helps God save you is NOT FAITH in Jesus Christ. For us to shrink back from our faith in Christ and try to supplement what he has done by our own works is to trod under foot the Son of God, and to count the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and does despite unto the Spirit of grace. Cast not away therefore your confidence - Confidence in what? - the work that Jesus Christ accomplished.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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#38
When God says He forgets our sin it doesn't mean that He doesn't "remember" them anymore. What this means is God doesn't "dwell" on them anymore. When telling us how to forgive He tells us the same thing. Now we as humans have a really hard time sometimes not dwelling on things done against us. God however in His Sovereignty wills Himself not to dwell on our sins we have repented of. He doesn't "forget" them He just doesn't dwell on them.

I'll be back to try and answer you other question later when I have more time. Not saying I am right you are wrong for if I am wrong in my understanding I'll admit it. Family is waking up which means my "quiet time" is over lol.
brother I don't understand what you are trying to say but ...if God says he will not remember them I believe him...and thats what he says...If God forgives my sins then I have no sins .....and now a new beginning...if he remembers them it means I am still in sin...
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]by the way which he dedicated for us, a new and living way, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
[SUP]21 [/SUP]and having a great priest over the house of God;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience: and having our body washed with pure water,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]let us hold fast the confession of our hope that it waver not; for he is faithful that promised:
 
Mar 28, 2014
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#39
How does one who has been saved by faith in Jesus Christ and faith only, 'fall back' or 'shrink back' from faith in Jesus Christ? Doesn't say that they are in danger of losing salvation - it says: "my soul shall have no pleasure in him" - To believe that YOUR works helps God save you is NOT FAITH in Jesus Christ. For us to shrink back from our faith in Christ and try to supplement what he has done by our own works is to trod under foot the Son of God, and to count the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and does despite unto the Spirit of grace. Cast not away therefore your confidence - Confidence in what? - the work that Jesus Christ accomplished.
so one can shrink back to perdition and still not lose salvation?...vs 38 is saying if a righteous one shrink back...that means he shrinks back to unrighteousness....
[SUP]38 [/SUP]But my righteous one shall live by faith: And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
 

Pemican

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2014
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#40
The word "saved" in the Bible does not always refer to eternal salvation. It may also refer to deliverance from trouble or discipline. You have to look at the context of the passage to determine whether the passage is talking about eternal salvation or deliverance from trouble etc.