Conditional Salvation

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Mar 28, 2014
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The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. I preach THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST. You preach salvation by water and works and completely abstaining from sin. You preach a DIFFERENT GOSPEL. Being self-attached to the vine and bearing no fruit and not abiding is not being in the body of Christ.
so your gospel has no baptism....faith without works...and don't abstain from sin...



When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? "the body of Christ" (1 Corinthians 12:13). John 7:38-39 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. The phrase "in me" (in the vine) does not mean the same thing as Paul’s words ..baptized by ONE SPIRIT into ONE BODY.. (1 Corinthians 12:13). So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established. So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, (like Judas Iscariot) and the vital which bears fruit - like the remaining 11 disciples). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity.
so you think Jesus had no power to forgive sins and to save before he died on the cross?...go read ...the words that I speak unto you they are spirit and they are life...was it not the same Jesus that called Lazarus from the grave....Jesus describes himself as the true vine and you say ...if one abides in the true vine they cannot bear fruit ....

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Already ye are clean because of the word which I have spoken unto you.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; so neither can ye, except ye abide in me.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.

something is terribly wrong with you....


Yes he is. Self attached branches that bear no fruit and do not abide are not believers. You need to learn how to rightly divide the word of truth, but first you need to repent and believe the gospel. Posts #353 and #370 went right over your head.
where do you come up with these crazy ideas....
how are non believers attached to Christ?
self attached branches.....
 
Jan 19, 2013
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and you assume it has nothing to do with salvation? is our deliverance not from sin and death....?
Salvation ultimately is deliverance from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) at the final judgment.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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I make no such assumptions.
Deliverance can be from sin and not unto death. Not all sin leads to a loss of salvation.
Can the latter end of someone already going to hell be any worse than the beginning? Read it and put the thing in context.
Maybe the verse above it would help you to do so.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption:
for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

You can have a person that is unable to stop a habbitual sin, like smoking or cursing, hating themselves for it and repenting often, like the publican who went home justified, and still go to heaven. It is a matter and condition of the heart, not the sin itself.
you are saying as long as the heart say ok you can sin?...say you are sorry and go on sinning?...sin separates us from God.....
Romans 6:1-3King James Version (KJV)
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed

and the wages of sin is still death...as far as I know....
 
E

elf3

Guest
Because of God's grace and my faith in Jesus I am not scared of death. Of I had to rely on baptism and my "good works" to be saved I would be scared to death.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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the salvation of man is conditional upon one thing:

the grace of God through His Son Jesus Christ.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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We are hopeless without Jesus. I am serious. If we have to work for our salvation then I am give up.

Just have a faith in Him, he will do it for us.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Because of God's grace and my faith in Jesus I am not scared of death. Of I had to rely on baptism and my "good works" to be saved I would be scared to death.
well God says to be baptised and do good works...and you must rely on what God says....but you deny God's word and teach false doctrine...
 
Mar 28, 2014
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the salvation of man is conditional upon one thing:

the grace of God through His Son Jesus Christ.
a good saying but it is only when you apply everything that Jesus Christ teaches to your life will it work...
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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so your gospel has no baptism....faith without works...and don't abstain from sin...
The gospel is not baptism. The gospel is the good news of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:1 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scripture. Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who (gets water baptized? NO) for everyone who BELIEVES.. The gospel is not salvation by H20 or baptized or condemned. That is a "different" gospel that you preach. 2 Corinthians 4:3 - But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

"Faith without works is dead" does not mean that a dead faith produces works in order to become a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works, but that is the only interpretation that the natural man can understand (1 Corinthians 2:14). Just as I have explained to you before. In James 2:14, James said says/claims he has faith but has no works. James did not say that the hypothetical person actually has faith. James even points out can that faith save him. What kind of faith is that? Empty profession of faith/dead faith. If you say/claim you have faith but have no works to validate your claim, you demonstrate that you have a dead faith, not genuine faith which is evidenced by good works. So "faith without works is dead" and it's not because works are the source of life in faith (we have been made alive together with Christ/source of life - by grace through faith - Ephesians 2:5-8) but because works are the fruit and demonstrative evidence that our faith is alive.

Abstaining from sin is the goal, yet we are not sinless and perfect. So your "different" gospel is salvation by water and works and sinless perfection. This is a different gospel, a perverted gospel that cannot save.

so you think Jesus had no power to forgive sins and to save before he died on the cross?..
Never said that. Strawman argument, as usual.

.go read ...the words that I speak unto you they are spirit and they are life...was it not the same Jesus that called Lazarus from the grave....Jesus describes himself as the true vine and you say ...if one abides in the true vine they cannot bear fruit
No, if one abides in the true vine, they will bear fruit. John 15:5 - I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; (and those who don't abide) - for without Me you can do nothing.

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Already ye are clean because of the word which I have spoken unto you.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; so neither can ye, except ye abide in me.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.
Notice that Jesus mentions branches that bear/produce no fruit and branches that bear/produce fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear/produce fruit but then later stop bearing/producing fruit. Also notice in verse 3 - You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. ALL of them? NO! John 13:10 - Jesus said to him, "He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, "You are not all clean." Judas is the self-attached branch who did not abide and was taken away.

something is terribly wrong with you....
LOL! How ironic. Coming from you, I'll take that as a compliment.

where do you come up with these crazy ideas....how are non believers attached to Christ? self attached branches..
I already explained this to you. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, (like Judas Iscariot) and the vital which bears fruit - like the remaining 11 disciples). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity.

John is fond of this word "abide." He uses the term "meno" several times in his writings. Underlying the meaning of this term is to remain, continue, not depart and is inseparable from believing. Negatively this is seen in chapter five of John’s gospel: "And you do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent" (John 5:38). Positively, it occurs in this sense of believing in chapter six: "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him". "He who believes" in Christ is equivalent to “he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood” because the result is the same, eternal life. The parallel is even more striking between verses 40 and 54:

"Everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day" (v40).

"Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day" (v54).

1 John 4:15 - Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Son of God (even the devils believe that), or some lip service confession by an unbeliever, but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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The gospel is not baptism. The gospel is the good news of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:1 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scripture. Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who (gets water baptized? NO) for everyone who BELIEVES.. The gospel is not salvation by H20 or baptized or condemned. That is a "different" gospel that you preach. 2 Corinthians 4:3 - But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Mark 16:15-16American Standard Version (ASV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

believe what? believe the gospel...how will they believe and be baptised if it was not preached in the gospel?




"Faith without works is dead" does not mean that a dead faith produces works in order to become a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works, but that is the only interpretation that the natural man can understand (1 Corinthians 2:14). Just as I have explained to you before. In James 2:14, James said says/claims he has faith but has no works. James did not say that the hypothetical person actually has faith. James even points out can that faith save him. What kind of faith is that? Empty profession of faith/dead faith. If you say/claim you have faith but have no works to validate your claim, you demonstrate that you have a dead faith, not genuine faith which is evidenced by good works. So "faith without works is dead" and it's not because works are the source of life in faith (we have been made alive together with Christ/source of life - by grace through faith - Ephesians 2:5-8) but because works are the fruit and demonstrative evidence that our faith is alive.
you babble on and on but that does not change faith without works is dead...bottom line...you have faith without works...it does not matter what faith you have ...without works it is dead...




Abstaining from sin is the goal, yet we are not sinless and perfect. So your "different" gospel is salvation by water and works and sinless perfection. This is a different gospel, a perverted gospel that cannot save.
show where the scripture says ...don't be baptised...don't do works and continue in sin....and I will show you otherwise...


No, if one abides in the true vine, they will bear fruit. John 15:5 - I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; (and those who don't abide) - for without Me you can do nothing.
again you make claims without reading...
No, if one abides in the true vine, they will bear fruit.
[SUP]2[/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Notice that Jesus mentions branches that bear/produce no fruit and branches that bear/produce fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear/produce fruit but then later stop bearing/producing fruit. Also notice in verse 3 - You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. ALL of them? NO! John 13:10 - Jesus said to him, "He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, "You are not all clean." Judas is the self-attached branch who did not abide and was taken away.
vs 2 would apply to all who bears no fruit ...those who bear are purged that they may bear more...if they refuse to bear they will be cut off...




I already explained this to you. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, (like Judas Iscariot) and the vital which bears fruit - like the remaining 11 disciples). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity.
this is babble you are either in him or not...you keep making up things...


John is fond of this word "abide." He uses the term "meno" several times in his writings. Underlying the meaning of this term is to remain, continue, not depart and is inseparable from believing. Negatively this is seen in chapter five of John’s gospel: "And you do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent" (John 5:38). Positively, it occurs in this sense of believing in chapter six: "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him". "He who believes" in Christ is equivalent to “he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood” because the result is the same, eternal life. The parallel is even more striking between verses 40 and 54:

"Everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day" (v40).

"Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day" (v54).

1 John 4:15 - Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Son of God (even the devils believe that), or some lip service confession by an unbeliever, but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.
and if he is your Lord and Saviour...you repent and get baptised in his name ....do good works and abstain from sins...
you have to practice what you preach.....talk the talk and walk the walk.....
 
E

elf3

Guest
well God says to be baptised and do good works...and you must rely on what God says....but you deny God's word and teach false doctrine...
Read Romans 10 see what God through Paul says.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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a good saying but it is only when you apply everything that Jesus Christ teaches to your life will it work...
even when we do every good thing written in the book, it's still only His mercy that allows us to stand.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Thy people are free-will gifts in the day of Thy strength,
in the honours of holiness, From the womb, from the morning, Thou hast the dew of thy youth.

(Psalm 110:3)

because we are saved by grace, not works, we are free-will offerings, not under the compulsion of the law.

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give,
not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

(2 Corinthians 9:7)

in this way we submit to baptism into Him as 'the answer of a good conscious'

in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord
(Philemon 1:14)

because in the same way God, while we are undeserving, performed service and gave this precious gift to us

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
(Philippians 2:5-7)

to the young man who had followed the law all the days of his life, Jesus asked that He do a thing outside the law, to sell all his possessions for the poor, saying that in this way he might be perfect.

we are being perfected by His Holy Spirit, teaching us to do every work in faith through love.

For God has not given us a spirit of fear,
but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

(2 Timothy 1:7)

so then if we baptize by force and coercion, to what end?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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even when we do every good thing written in the book, it's still only His mercy that allows us to stand.
No doubt and it states clearly...THERE is NOT A JUST MAN upon the earth that does good and sins not......Ecclesiastes 7....this was written during the reign of Solomon.....there were priests, prophets and men of God on the planet when this was written and NO just man to be found who practiced GOOD....

Not one sin recorded about Daniel and yet he confessed his SINS....why...because all are sinners and sin and fail on a regular basis......!

It is Christ through us that does the work....any good from us comes from Christ dia us dia the Holy Spirit and the word of God!
 
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Mar 28, 2014
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No doubt and it states clearly...THERE is NOT A JUST MAN upon the earth that does good and sins not......Ecclesiastes 7....this was written during the reign of Solomon.....there were priests, prophets and men of God on the planet when this was written and NO just man to be found who practiced GOOD....

Not one sin recorded about Daniel and yet he confessed his SINS....why...because all are sinners and sin and fail on a regular basis......!

It is Christ through us that does the work....any good from us comes from Christ dia us dia the Holy Spirit and the word of God!
shall we continue in sin ???what say you ...
Romans 6:2
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

seems like you want to continue to live in sin...
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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shall we continue in sin ???what say you ...
Romans 6:2
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

seems like you want to continue to live in sin...
would you say the same thing to Paul? that it seems like he wants to continue in sin?

when what Paul had said was the very same thing, that we are saved by grace, not works, and all of us undeserving?

this is exactly why Paul asks this rhetorical question you quoted - because to the carnal mind it "seems this way" when he says the works of the flesh cannot ever earn the gift of God.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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would you say the same thing to Paul? that it seems like he wants to continue in sin?

when what Paul had said was the very same thing, that we are saved by grace, not works, and all of us undeserving?

this is exactly why Paul asks this rhetorical question you quoted - because to the carnal mind it "seems this way" when he says the works of the flesh cannot ever earn the gift of God.
I am saying it to you..we are saved by grace through faith and faith without works is dead....are we not created unto good works???? lets say you invested you life savings into a piece of equipment and when you plug it in it does not work...will you keep it as a decoration or will you return it from whence it came? In the same way we are created unto good works and if you do no good works ...then you return to where you came from...
John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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shall we continue in sin ???what say you ...
Romans 6:2
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

seems like you want to continue to live in sin...

You know...you seem to jump to conclusions and accuse on a regular basis especially if you don't know what you are talking about so keep on being led by your father the devil as he is the accuser of the brethren....NO WHERE did I say that I want to CONTINUE to live in sin so quit LYING through your teeth!
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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it is not sin to elevate our thinking and understand spiritual things.

to admit that i can never be good enough to justify the gift of salvation is not to say "there is no reason to pursue righteousness"

you may need to prick a horse or hold a carrot in front of a mule to make it carry the cart into town, but if you set it free, it will return home without goading.

:)