Conditional Salvation

[SeaBass]

Gal 5:4 "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified (present tense) by the law; ye are fallen (aorist tense; indicative mood) from grace."

In writing this epistle "unto the churches of Galatia" Paul says the ones who were trying to justified by the law "are fallen from grace"
THe present tense of the verse shows that some had actually fallen from grace. The aorist tense show they were already fallen and the indicative mood is a statement of fact, that is, the falling had already, really occurred.

Logically, one cannot fall from God's grace unless he was first in God's grace.

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Heb 6:4,5 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,"

The Hebrew writer is referring to those that are Christians.

Heb 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

The KJV, RSV along with some other versions added the first word "if" in an attempt to show the possibility of a Christian falling away. But the word "if" is not in the original texts.

The literal translation of the verse better reads "and having fallen away". The aorist tense shows the falling away has actually happened to some and not just a possibility.


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2 Pet 2:20-22 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Peter refers to Christians that have escaped the pollution (defilement, influence of sin) of the world though the knowledge of Christ (Heb 10:26). The Christians can become "again entangled". Logically one must be out of the entanglement of the pollution of this world for him to become "AGAIN" entangled. One cannot always be entangled and become "AGAIN" entangled.

"and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning".
If they were lost before becoming a Christian and now lost on the latter end, why then is being lost in the end worse than being lost at the beginning? After all, lost is lost. The latter end is worse for in the begiinning before becoming a Christian they sinned in ignorance but after coming into the knowledge of Christ they obeyed the gospel and became a Christian. Yet being lost in the end is worse for they are lost having had the knowledge of Christ but simply now do not care they are lost and are unwilling to do anything about their lost conditions. At the beginning they were willing to do something about their lost state, but in the end they have no concern now for their lost state. As those in Heb 6:6, after becoming Christians but now fallen away in the end, they now have no concern about their salvation seeing they continue to put Christ to shame and continue to crucify Him.

"But it is happened unto them"
The verb 'happened" is perfect tense, indicative mood. Perfect tense shows it has happened, not possibly could happen but as a matter of fact (indicative mood) did happen where they actually, really are " again entangled" and have " turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."


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Heb 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

"take heed" a warning. No sense in warning about something that cannot, will not happen. The warning itself implies it can happen.

"brethren" Christians

" lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief," Unbelief is from the heart.

"departing from the living God" one cannot depart from God if he were never with God.

 

[SeaBass]

Jn 15:5,6 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Jesus tells his disciples (branches) to abide in Him and bear much fruit. If not, the disciple/branch is "cast forth". Logically one cannot be "cast forth" from the vine unless he was part of the vine. Cast forth "into the fire, and they are burned", a description of hell.

 

[SeaBass]

1 Cor 15:1,2 "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."

Paul here is speaking to brethren?Christians. Paul ties the conditional word "if" with saved...saved "IF" ye keep in memory. So while salvation is not merited, it is conditional. The Greek word for vain is eike meaning without success, no result.

 

[biscuit]

I agree with your premises from a Christian perspective. However, I believe God sees it differently.

Since He is omniscient, He can view our lives from Day 1 to the last day to say we are to have eternal life. He can view our entire life in a matter of seconds and doesn't have to wait until we get our act together. He already know this before we are born.

The member to Heaven must be very small because He will give the earth's inhabitants a second chance to accept Jesus Christ as Savior.

 

[SeaBass]

Col 1:22,23 "In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"

Paul writing to "saints" and "faithful brethren" and begins the verse with the conditional word "IF". They could only be unblameable and unreproveable "IF" they continue in the faith with "the faith" referring to the body of information making up the NT gospel.

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2 Tim 2:12,13 "if we endure, we shall also reign with him: if we shall deny him, he also will deny us: if we are faithless, he abideth faithful; for he cannot deny himself"

Paul, writing to a Christian, Timothy. Once again Paul uses the conditional word "IF", If one endures,/suffers with Christ he "may" also be glorified together, Rom 8:17.

Paul says "IF WE are faithless" Paul includes himself in this conditional phrase. Paul implies the Christian can become faithless:
Those who understand this passage as containing soothing, comforting voices for the sinner, for the faithless Christian who has left his first love, are gravely mistaken ... This is one of the sternest passages in the Book of Life; for it tells how it is impossible for the pitiful Redeemer to forgive in the future life ... He cannot treat the faithless as though he were faithful - cannot act as though faithfulness and faithlessness were one and the same thing. H. D. M. Spence

 

[SeaBass]

Heb 10:38,39 "But my righteous one shall live by faith: And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him. But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul."

The Hebrew writer speaks of the possibility ("IF") of a righteous one shrinking back unto perdition. Logically one cannot shrink back unto perdition if he were always in perdition

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Mt 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

Jesus makes being "saved" conditional upon enduing unto the end.

 

[crossnote]

Heb 10:38,39 "But my righteous one shall live by faith: And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him. But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul."The Hebrew writer speaks of the possibility ("IF") of a righteous one shrinking back unto perdition. Logically one cannot shrink back unto perdition if he were always in perdition-----------------------------------------------------------------------Mt 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."Jesus makes being "saved" conditional upon enduing unto the end.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Seems to roundly refute your assumption.

btw, we endure, due to the fact we are saved.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[Word_Swordsman]

1 Cor 15:1,2 "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."

Paul here is speaking to brethren?Christians. Paul ties the conditional word "if" with saved...saved "IF" ye keep in memory. So while salvation is not merited, it is conditional. The Greek word for vain is eike meaning without success, no result.

AMEN That is good preaching. By that may all inherit a saving fear of the Lord, gaining much knowledge, wisdom, and understanding unto a final salvation.

 

[kennethcadwell]

And here is another;


Romans 11:19-22


Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.


Does not say if here, it says provided you continue.
If you don't continue in Him, you will be cut off.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

I agree with your premises from a Christian perspective. However, I believe God sees it differently.

Since He is omniscient, He can view our lives from Day 1 to the last day to say we are to have eternal life. He can view our entire life in a matter of seconds and doesn't have to wait until we get our act together. He already know this before we are born.

The member to Heaven must be very small because He will give the earth's inhabitants a second chance to accept Jesus Christ as Savior.

How can the Children of God, taught of the Holy Spirit, possess different thinking, opposing the Father?

Next, omniscience with God is still factored by choices of men, else there really is no free will choice among men. God would undoubtedly love to keep a hand on all outcomes, but if He knows and doesn't stop a man from taking the wrong turn, how could He be Just? Instead it still boils down to OUR choices to be JUDGED by God in the end. Yes, God can "know" our disposition while in the womb, so yes, even before creation of man. But still, knowing all that, Esau was allowed opportunities to choose right, and not offend God by selling out his precious birthright so flippantly. Easu was granted to choose, and chose wrongly. He should have immediately tended to his dying father even while horribly hungered. That choice justified hatred of that choosing from God. That choice was so bad that God had to bless Joseph who was the literal thief of the birthright! That choice led to God completely opposing the whole of the Edomites, heirs of Esau. Did God prefer that? No. He hated the choice that led to that, thus blaming Esau personally.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Seems to roundly refute your assumption.

btw, we endure, due to the fact we are saved.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

The "we" Paul refereed to the Christian community who held the truth in righteousness. Paul makes it clear that those who return to unrighteousness can't possibly remain counted among the righteous in Christ. It is either serve the Lord, or return to serve Satan. Yes, if saved, which is in fact delegated to a future event beyond this fleshy world, as in "shall be saved".
Mark 13:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

[HR][/HR] 1 Peter 4:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

That is a direct indication some would not endure to the end, like Judas and these three who were disciples of Paul that departed from the teachings of Paul, and apparently Christ:
1 Timothy 1:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
[HR][/HR] 2 Timothy 2:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;


Paul put them at the feet of Satan, like he did the fornicator in 1 Cor 5, for a terrible ride in hopes they would come to themselves by the truth. Judas didn't, we know. The other two? We don't. We will see that trial at the judgment seat of Christ, maybe at the final judgment at the Father's throne.

 

[SeaBass]

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Seems to roundly refute your assumption.

btw, we endure, due to the fact we are saved.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

The Hebrew writer was expressing his confidence that those Hebrews he was writing to would be of "the just that live by faith" and not of those who "draw back unto perdition". Why would the Hebrew speak about "them who draw back unto perdition" if such persons do not exist?

Phil 1:5,6 "For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"

Paul was confident God would continue a good work in them for they had remained faithful in the gospel "from the first day unto now"

Two sides to salvation:
1) Man's faithfulness to God
2) God's faithfulness to man

The Philippian Christians were faithful to God by remaining in the gospel and in turn God will be faithful to them by continuing that good work in them.

On the other hand, Paul wrote to Galatia "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:" Unlike the Philippians that had faithfully remained in the gospel, some at Galatia had not remained in the gospel and nowhere does Paul have the same confidence in God continuing a good work in those at Galatia as those in Phillipi, but instead said to the Galatians "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth" and "I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain "and "ye are fallen from grace"

No verse teaches or guarantees one will endure because he is saved. 2 Tim 2:12 "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:" "IF" we suffer/endure. The "if" shows enduing in order to reign is conditional, not a guarantee.

Verses do not contradict each other. There is no "eternal security" in any of the verses I have posted or in any of the verses you posted.

 

[RedTent]

The Hebrew writer was expressing his confidence that those Hebrews he was writing to would be of "the just that live by faith" and not of those who "draw back unto perdition". Why would the Hebrew speak about "them who draw back unto perdition" if such persons do not exist?

Phil 1:5,6 "For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"

Paul was confident God would continue a good work in them for they had remained faithful in the gospel "from the first day unto now"

Two sides to salvation:
1) Man's faithfulness to God
2) God's faithfulness to man

The Philippian Christians were faithful to God by remaining in the gospel and in turn God will be faithful to them by continuing that good work in them.

On the other hand, Paul wrote to Galatia "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:" Unlike the Philippians that had faithfully remained in the gospel, some at Galatia had not remained in the gospel and nowhere does Paul have the same confidence in God continuing a good work in those at Galatia as those in Phillipi, but instead said to the Galatians "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth" and "I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain "and "ye are fallen from grace"

No verse teaches or guarantees one will endure because he is saved. 2 Tim 2:12 "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:" "IF" we suffer/endure. The "if" shows enduing in order to reign is conditional, not a guarantee.

Verses do not contradict each other. There is no "eternal security" in any of the verses I have posted or in any of the verses you posted.

Paul was writing to a people who believed some Jewish Christians who thought gentiles should first obey all of what Jews had been told to do before Christ was crucified and Jew and gentile became one under Christ. We are reading it as gentiles who think anything Jewish is Judaism we wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.

Because of these entirely different viewpoints, we are not going to be able to understand what Paul is saying in Galatians.

 

[breno785au]

How can the Children of God, taught of the Holy Spirit, possess different thinking, opposing the Father?

Maybe because there are too many 'teachers'? Like too many cooks spoil the broth

 

[crossnote]

And here is another;


Romans 11:19-22


Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.


Does not say if here, it says provided you continue.
If you don't continue in Him, you will be cut off.

Not pertaining to an individuals salvation but the mercy of God upon the Gentiles.

 

[crossnote]

The "we" Paul refereed to the Christian community who held the truth in righteousness. Paul makes it clear that those who return to unrighteousness can't possibly remain counted among the righteous in Christ. It is either serve the Lord, or return to serve Satan. Yes, if saved, which is in fact delegated to a future event beyond this fleshy world, as in "shall be saved".
Mark 13:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

[HR][/HR] 1 Peter 4:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

That is a direct indication some would not endure to the end, like Judas and these three who were disciples of Paul that departed from the teachings of Paul, and apparently Christ:
1 Timothy 1:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
[HR][/HR] 2 Timothy 2:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;


Paul put them at the feet of Satan, like he did the fornicator in 1 Cor 5, for a terrible ride in hopes they would come to themselves by the truth. Judas didn't, we know. The other two? We don't. We will see that trial at the judgment seat of Christ, maybe at the final judgment at the Father's throne.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,(present tense) and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (past tense)

1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life (present tense), and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; (present tense)and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life (assurance), and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Don't set yourselves up as enemies of assurance by planting works as a requirement of eternal life.

 

[crossnote]

The Hebrew writer was expressing his confidence that those Hebrews he was writing to would be of "the just that live by faith" and not of those who "draw back unto perdition". Why would the Hebrew speak about "them who draw back unto perdition" if such persons do not exist?

Phil 1:5,6 "For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"

Paul was confident God would continue a good work in them for they had remained faithful in the gospel "from the first day unto now"

Two sides to salvation:
1) Man's faithfulness to God
2) God's faithfulness to man

The Philippian Christians were faithful to God by remaining in the gospel and in turn God will be faithful to them by continuing that good work in them.

On the other hand, Paul wrote to Galatia "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:" Unlike the Philippians that had faithfully remained in the gospel, some at Galatia had not remained in the gospel and nowhere does Paul have the same confidence in God continuing a good work in those at Galatia as those in Phillipi, but instead said to the Galatians "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth" and "I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain "and "ye are fallen from grace"

No verse teaches or guarantees one will endure because he is saved. 2 Tim 2:12 "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:" "IF" we suffer/endure. The "if" shows enduing in order to reign is conditional, not a guarantee.

Verses do not contradict each other. There is no "eternal security" in any of the verses I have posted or in any of the verses you posted.

Verses don't contradict unless you misapply them.

SeaBass writes, [''The Hebrew writer was expressing his confidence that those Hebrews he was writing to would be of "the just that live by faith" and not of those who "draw back unto perdition". Why would the Hebrew speak about "them who draw back unto perdition" if such persons do not exist?'']

Such persons do exist, they are called 'professing christians' who do not possess true Life.
Why did Paul give such high words to the 'carnal' Corinthian Church before rebuking them as well?

1 Corinthians 1:2, 4, 8-9 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

So if you make your case on the Hebrews you must also make it with the Corintian Church, plagued with sins, as well.

 

[elf3]

How can the Children of God, taught of the Holy Spirit, possess different thinking, opposing the Father?

Next, omniscience with God is still factored by choices of men, else there really is no free will choice among men. God would undoubtedly love to keep a hand on all outcomes, but if He knows and doesn't stop a man from taking the wrong turn, how could He be Just? Instead it still boils down to OUR choices to be JUDGED by God in the end. Yes, God can "know" our disposition while in the womb, so yes, even before creation of man. But still, knowing all that, Esau was allowed opportunities to choose right, and not offend God by selling out his precious birthright so flippantly. Easu was granted to choose, and chose wrongly. He should have immediately tended to his dying father even while horribly hungered. That choice justified hatred of that choosing from God. That choice was so bad that God had to bless Joseph who was the literal thief of the birthright! That choice led to God completely opposing the whole of the Edomites, heirs of Esau. Did God prefer that? No. He hated the choice that led to that, thus blaming Esau personally.

Hold on there a minute.."omniscience of God is still factored by choices of men" . This statement takes away the omniscience of God. The omniscience of God is that he knows ALL things past present and future all at one time as in right here right now. You are saying by this one statement that God has no idea what we are going to do. If God is only omniscient by our choices then that means we can take God by surprise as to what we might do. Not only do you take away God's omniscience but you take away God's Sovereignty. You put us in control not God. By removing any little bit of the incommunicable attributes of God then God is no longer God.

You just made God revolve around us not us revolve around God.

 

[SeaBass]

1 Tim 3:2,6 "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;...Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil."

A Christian can fall into condemnation as incurred by the devil.

 

[SeaBass]

Verses don't contradict unless you misapply them.

SeaBass writes, [''The Hebrew writer was expressing his confidence that those Hebrews he was writing to would be of "the just that live by faith" and not of those who "draw back unto perdition". Why would the Hebrew speak about "them who draw back unto perdition" if such persons do not exist?'']

Such persons do exist, they are called 'professing christians' who do not possess true Life.
Why did Paul give such high words to the 'carnal' Corinthian Church before rebuking them as well?

1 Corinthians 1:2, 4, 8-9 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

So if you make your case on the Hebrews you must also make it with the Corintian Church, plagued with sins, as well.

Heb 10:38 "But my righteous one shall live by faith: And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him."

The Hebrew writer is talking about a "righteous one" that shrinks back.

Heb 10:39 "But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul."

One is either in a saved condition or in perdition. If eternal security were true it would be impossible for one to shrink from as saved condition to a lost condition. Again, logically one cannot go BACK to a lost condition if here were always in a lost condition, that is, you cannot go BACK to something you never left.

1 Cor 1:8 cannot, does not contradict Heb 10:38,39 or the many conditional verses with the word "IF" as already mentioned in this thread. Nor does it contradict 1 Cor 10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." Nor does Paul contradict himself when he says he can become a reprobate, 1 Cor 9:27.

1 COr 1:6 "Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:"

As long as the testimony of Christ (the gospel) remains confirmed in those Corinthians, which was the source of all their blessings, then God would confirm them. Just like the Philippians had faithfully remained in the gospel from first day until now, God would continue to work a good work in them.