The law of Christ

just-us-2 · Oct 23, 2014

JGIG said:

The subject of this post is, and I quote, “The law of Christ” and if you had studied to learn about the covenants, you would not make such an unlearned statement.

Looking over the fourteen or so posts you have made on this thread, it is obvious you have no understanding of the covenants or what it means to be in covenant with God. However, I am impressed by your willingness to let everyone realize that you are a babe in Christ, which allows us to take that into consideration when we post comments to you. I am much less bold than that and that may be a fault in me.
I tend to stick with the words of the first chapter of James as I have made a fool of myself before by blurting out things that popped into my mind.
James 1:19 Therefore, my dear brothers, let every person be quick to listen but slow to speak, slow to get angry;
20 for a person's anger does not accomplish God's righteousness!
21 So rid yourselves of all vulgarity and obvious evil, and receive meekly the Word implanted in you that can save your lives.
22 Don't deceive yourselves by only hearing what the Word says, but do it!
23 For whoever hears the Word but doesn't do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror,
24 who looks at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.
25 But if a person looks closely into the perfect Torah, which gives freedom, and continues, becoming not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work it requires, then he will be blessed in what he does.
26 Anyone who thinks he is religiously observant but does not control his tongue is deceiving himself, and his observance counts for nothing.

I will be happy to help you if I can. I know it pleases God when His children discuss and study His Word peaceably so edification takes place.

dalconn · Oct 23, 2014

If we walk in love we have fulfilled the law of Christ...I was never under the law because Im a gentile

Romans 13:10
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

john832 · Oct 23, 2014

peacefulbeliever said:

Not sure where you heard this but you need to read the O.T. a little,

First of all, the term Jew comes from Judah, one tribe of twelve (actually thirteen, if you count Ephraim and Manasseh. The Bible calls them separate tribes and they had separate inheritances when they went into the land.)

There came a division after the death of Solomon...

1Ki 11:43 And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

1Ki 12:3 That they sent and called him. And Jeroboam and all the congregation of Israel came, and spake unto Rehoboam, saying,
1Ki 12:4 Thy father made our yoke grievous: now therefore make thou the grievous service of thy father, and his heavy yoke which he put upon us, lighter, and we will serve thee.

1Ki 12:6 And king Rehoboam consulted with the old men, that stood before Solomon his father while he yet lived, and said, How do ye advise that I may answer this people?
1Ki 12:7 And they spake unto him, saying, If thou wilt be a servant unto this people this day, and wilt serve them, and answer them, and speak good words to them, then they will be thy servants for ever.
1Ki 12:8 But he forsook the counsel of the old men, which they had given him, and consulted with the young men that were grown up with him, and which stood before him:
1Ki 12:9 And he said unto them, What counsel give ye that we may answer this people, who have spoken to me, saying, Make the yoke which thy father did put upon us lighter?
1Ki 12:10 And the young men that were grown up with him spake unto him, saying, Thus shalt thou speak unto this people that spake unto thee, saying, Thy father made our yoke heavy, but make thou it lighter unto us; thus shalt thou say unto them, My little finger shall be thicker than my father's loins.
1Ki 12:11 And now whereas my father did lade you with a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke: my father hath chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.

1Ki 12:20 And it came to pass, when all Israel heard that Jeroboam was come again, that they sent and called him unto the congregation, and made him king over all Israel: there was none that followed the house of David, but the tribe of Judah only.

King Rehoboam was the house of David and was left with only Judah with the capital at Jerusalem. Ten tribes of Israel followed Jereboam and he became king with a capital at Samaria.

1Ki 12:21 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.

and here we see Rehoboam gathering Judah to fight against Israel. They became separate.

john832 · Oct 23, 2014

If you will look into history just a little, you will find that Israel went into captivity in around 740 to 719BC...

"The Northern Kingdom of Israel was conquered by the Neo-Assyrian monarchs, Tiglath-Pileser III (Pul) and Shalmaneser V. The later Assyrian rulers Sargon II and his son and successor, Sennacherib, were responsible for finishing the twenty-year demise of Israel's northern ten-tribe kingdom, although they did not overtake the Southern Kingdom. Jerusalem was besieged, but not taken. The tribes exiled by Assyria later became known as the Ten Lost Tribes." - Wikipedia

"In 722 BC, nearly twenty years after the initial deportations, the ruling city of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, Samaria, was finally taken by Sargon II after a three-year siege started by Shalmaneser V." - Wikipedia

The date of 722/719BC is recognized as the finality of the captivity of Israel, the date Samaria was taken.

But what about Judah?

"The Babylonian captivity (or Babylonian exile) is the period in Jewish history during which a number of Jews of the ancient Kingdom of Judah were captives in Babylonia. After the Battle of Carchemish in 605 BCE, Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem, resulting in tribute being paid by King Jehoiakim.[1] Jehoiakim refused to pay tribute in Nebuchadnezzar's fourth year, which led to another siege in Nebuchadnezzar's seventh year, culminating with the death of Jehoiakim, and the exile of King Jeconiah, his court and many others; Jeconiah's successor Zedekiah and others were exiled in Nebuchadnezzar's eighteenth year; a later deportation occurred in Nebuchadnezzar's twenty-third year. These deportations are dated to 597 BCE, c. 587 BCE, and c. 582 BCE, respectively." - Wikipedia

Two separate nations went into captivity at two different times. Only one came back to the land...

"After the fall of Babylon to the Persian king Cyrus the Great in 539 BCE, exiled Jews began to return to the land of Judah. According to the biblical book of Ezra, construction of a second temple in Jerusalem began at this time. All these events are considered significant in Jewish history and culture, and had a far-reaching impact on the development of Judaism." - Wikipedia

This is the famous decree of Artaxerxes that Daniel refers to...

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Ezr 7:12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time.
Ezr 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

Judah came back, Israel never did and became known as the Diaspora. We call them the "Lost Ten Tribes" today.

JGIG · Oct 23, 2014

peacefulbeliever said:

peacefulbeliever -

What you are seeing here is those who advocate the keeping of Old Covenant practices easing you into what's called the 'Two House/Ephraimite' or 'Ten Lost Tribes' doctrine popular in much of the Law 'keeping' community.

The main thrust is this: That because the New Covenant was only with Israel/the Jews, when you are saved, it's because you responded to a special 'calling' - that you are really a part of the Ten Lost Tribes, being 'grafted' back into Israel. They define Gentiles as 'out of covenant Israel', and that when you come to Christ, you are grafted again into Israel - and here's the catch - are then subject to Her Law.

They believe that the mystery of the Gospel is how God reunites all the tribes of Israel (and they have to redefine the Biblical definition of 'Gentile' to build their theological contraption), when the Scriptures clearly state that the mystery of the Gospel is this:

Excerpted from Gateways into the Hebrew Roots Movement – An Examination of ‘Identity Crisis’ and Related Teachings of Jim Staley, from the section, Who are you? An heir by faith according to Promise or an heir according to tribal affiliation?:

Ephesians 3:1-6
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— 2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.

6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

The mystery of the Gospel is that Gentiles get to share in the promise through faith — that means the New Covenant promises made in Jeremiah 31 as well as the promises made to Abraham. No matter what promises God has made, they are YES in Christ (2 Corinthians 1:20)!

Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

And to clarify, the terms Jew, Israel(ite), and Hebrew were interchangeable by Paul’s time. From Exit and Support Network:

The Apostle Paul was addressed in three ways:

[*=1] As a Hebrew (Phil. 3:5).
[*=1]As an Israelite (2 Cor. 11:22).
[*=1]As a Jew (Acts 21:39; 22:3).

Obviously, Paul recognized no such distinctions as invented by this theory. All terms interchange.

_____________________

The Two House/Ten Lost Tribes doctrine is very complicated (as opposed to the simplicity of the Gospel). The above article is very long, but goes in depth regarding where a lot of what Torah folk have come to believe about who they are and why they believe they MUST 'keep' Old Covenant Law to stay in covenant with God. Again, that link is,

Gateways into the Hebrew Roots Movement – An Examination of ‘Identity Crisis’ and Related Teachings of Jim Staley

It does address the teachings of one particular teacher in the HRM, but the bones of what he teaches is a good representation of what we see in the HRM belief system. An important, related article is,

Hebrew Roots Movement – Believers are Grafted Into and Become Israel? Um . . . No.

If you choose to read through those two articles, I think you will have a more full picture of the doctrines these folks hold to and the things to which they allude in their posts. They tend to be a bit cryptic in what they write to draw out questions so that they can provide answers from their false theology.

I hope that helps.

Grace and peace,
-JGIG

john832 · Oct 23, 2014

JGIG said:

peacefulbeliever -

What you are seeing here is those who advocate the keeping of Old Covenant practices easing you into what's called the 'Two House/Ephraimite' or 'Ten Lost Tribes' doctrine popular in much of the Law 'keeping' community.

The main thrust is this: That because the New Covenant was only with Israel/the Jews, when you are saved, it's because you responded to a special 'calling' - that you are really a part of the Ten Lost Tribes, being 'grafted' back into Israel. They define Gentiles as 'out of covenant Israel', and that when you come to Christ, you are grafted again into Israel - and here's the catch - are then subject to Her Law.

They believe that the mystery of the Gospel is how God reunites all the tribes of Israel (and they have to redefine the Biblical definition of 'Gentile' to build their theological contraption), when the Scriptures clearly state that the mystery of the Gospel is this:

Excerpted from Gateways into the Hebrew Roots Movement – An Examination of ‘Identity Crisis’ and Related Teachings of Jim Staley, from the section, Who are you? An heir by faith according to Promise or an heir according to tribal affiliation?:

Ephesians 3:1-6
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— 2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.

6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

The mystery of the Gospel is that Gentiles get to share in the promise through faith — that means the New Covenant promises made in Jeremiah 31 as well as the promises made to Abraham. No matter what promises God has made, they are YES in Christ (2 Corinthians 1:20)!

Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

And to clarify, the terms Jew, Israel(ite), and Hebrew were interchangeable by Paul’s time. From Exit and Support Network:

The Apostle Paul was addressed in three ways:

[*=1] As a Hebrew (Phil. 3:5).
[*=1]As an Israelite (2 Cor. 11:22).
[*=1]As a Jew (Acts 21:39; 22:3).

Obviously, Paul recognized no such distinctions as invented by this theory. All terms interchange.

_____________________

The Two House/Ten Lost Tribes doctrine is very complicated (as opposed to the simplicity of the Gospel). The above article is very long, but goes in depth regarding where a lot of what Torah folk have come to believe about who they are and why they believe they MUST 'keep' Old Covenant Law to stay in covenant with God. Again, that link is,

Gateways into the Hebrew Roots Movement – An Examination of ‘Identity Crisis’ and Related Teachings of Jim Staley

It does address the teachings of one particular teacher in the HRM, but the bones of what he teaches is a good representation of what we see in the HRM belief system. An important, related article is,

Hebrew Roots Movement – Believers are Grafted Into and Become Israel? Um . . . No.

If you choose to read through those two articles, I think you will have a more full picture of the doctrines these folks hold to and the things to which they allude in their posts. They tend to be a bit cryptic in what they write to draw out questions so that they can provide answers from their false theology.

I hope that helps.

Grace and peace,
-JGIG

What a load of MBFM.

just-me · Oct 23, 2014

john832 said:

?????????????????? Medium-Band Frequency Modulation

Am I right???

Mechanically Bonded Fiber Matrix
Mouse Based File Manager
Moreton Bay Fig Morris

JGIG · Oct 23, 2014

john832 said:

That is essentially British Israelism with a Hebrew Roots twist.

The reality is that while many in the Northern Tribes were assimilated into the peoples of the world – that was part of God’s judgement upon them for their idolatry – many did come back.

This article gives a short and common sense view of the matter; this article a longer viewpoint from a Messianic Jewish Rabbi.

And folks, British Israelism is what was made popular by the cultist, Herbert Armstrong, founder of the now defunct 'Worldwide Church of God', which, when it broke apart resulted in splinter groups, many of which morphed into the Hebrew Roots Movement, or those who advocate Torah observance for believers in Christ as you see promoted by many here.

Excerpted from Gateways into the Hebrew Roots Movement – An Examination of ‘Identity Crisis’ and Related Teachings of Jim Staley:

[Torah folk like to] mention of “Prof. C.A.L. Totten (1851-1908) of Yale University”.

Totten was a proponent of British Israelism, which over time has morphed into beliefs ranging from the Two House/Ephraimite theology (basically British Israelism with a Hebrew Roots twist and is what Staley is teaching here), to the distinctly more racist Christian Identity Movement.

Both ends of the spectrum like to quote Totten:

“His name still surfaces from time to time in Christian Identity literature . . . usually as ‘Prof. Totten of Yale’. While Identity writers disdain intellectuals and academics [note that Staley does this, as well], they seem pathetically grateful for any instance in which the halo of academic prestige shines on their ideas. In Totten’s case, however, the tie to Yale was tenuous indeed.

“In 1868, the Sheffield Scientific School at Yale was designated Connecticut’s land-grant college. While that carried financial benefits for the institution, it also obligated Sheffield to provide military instruction for its students. Yale was able to secure a waiver of the drill requirements and was obliged only to provide senior students with a mandatory course of lectures in ‘military science’. These proved unproductive, and in 1877, Sheffield adopted a slightly different plan in cooperation with the United States Engineering School, whose officers were to provide six lectures each year on strategy, ordnance, fortification, and similar topics. One of the early officers detailed to this position of professor of military science and tactics was a lieutenant in the artillery named Charles Totten, who held the post from 1889 until 1892.

“Totten’s course appears to have been more successful than earlier military training programs at Yale, but his affiliation with the university was not substantially different from that of Reserve Officer’s Training Corps later on.”

So in reality, Totten was not at Yale as a theologian, but a giver of 24 lectures over 4 years at Yale regarding military science.

Totten has no designation after his name indicating that he was ever a true professor at all, let alone a designation that gives him credibility as a theologian.

Billing him as a ‘Yale Professor’ gives Totten and his views acedemic weight and authority that he does not in reality have. Not to diminish the man and his accomplishments, but C.A.L. Totten was neither a theologian nor a professor.

Yet the theological quote from Totten, whose modern-day designation would have been the equivalent of a Yale R.O.T.C. instructor, is “One of the most amazing quotes that you have ever seen and that I have ever seen” according to Staley. Here is the quote as seen in the ‘Identity Crisis’ video:

“I can never be too thankful to the Almighty that in my youth he used the late Professor Wilson to show me the difference between the two houses. The very understanding of this difference is the KEY by which almost the entire Bible becomes intelligible, and I cannot state too strongly that the man who has not yet seen that (the house of) Israel of the Scripture is totally distinct from the Jewish people, is yet in the very infancy, the mere alphabet of Biblical study, and that to this day the meaning of seven-eighths of the Bible is shut to his understanding.”—Professor C.A.L. Totten (1851-1908) of Yale University

And I hate to beat a dead horse, but John Wilson was not a professor either.

So we have Jim Staley [Torah folk] quoting a ‘professor’ (Totten) who was not a professor who referred to another professor (Wilson) who was also not a professor. Jim Staley is just preaching an updated version of British Israelism with a full Hebraic twist and a recalibrated definition of Gentile, referring to professors who really aren’t professors to give his claims credibility.

I know that at least one poster on this thread has referred to Totten's work, so I'm not barking up an imaginary tree by bringing this up

.

-JGIG

crossnote · Oct 23, 2014

john832 said:

Convicted? How about a reasonable defense instead of alpha-beta soup.

just-me · Oct 23, 2014

I got it

M=more
B=bad discriptions
F=from the
M=misguided

JGIG · Oct 23, 2014

crossnote said:

just-me said:

They cannot defend their position without referring to sources that are refutable and/or taking many, many Scriptures out of context.

The sad thing is that many of them don't even know where the doctrines they've adopted really come from.

I encourage them to do some more research from outside Torah-centric/British Israelism/Lost Tribes sources.

-JGIG

crossnote · Oct 23, 2014

JGIG said:

and those who haven't an argument resort to nah-nah ...nah-nah-nah.

just-me · Oct 23, 2014

It is sad when those who fight against the law cannot comprehend its spiritual aspects. It's like beating the air cause it isn't there.

1 Corinthians 9:26 So I run with purpose in every step. I am not just shadowboxing.

just-us-2 · Oct 23, 2014

just-me said:

Their day will come. Matthew 7:21-23 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

just-us-2 · Oct 23, 2014

Romans 16:17-18 (KJV)
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Colossians 4:6 (KJV)
6 Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

john832 · Oct 23, 2014

just-me said:

We have a winner!

john832 · Oct 23, 2014

JGIG said:

How about showing me the historical data that says that the ten tribes were reunited with Judah and Benjamin? You got that handy do you?

crossnote · Oct 23, 2014

Sounds like a bunch of cats licking their wounds after an altercation. LOL

just-me · Oct 23, 2014

Jesus describes the guts of the law given to Moses, and then adds not to neglect the rest of it. (Matthew 23:23)

The guts of the law are judgment, mercy, and faith.

Some have brought up the difference between the old and new covenants on this thread, or, if you will the old and new testaments. Some people may not know that the "fruit of the Spirit" is actually found first in old testament teaching.

Loving God Deuteronomy 5:10 Exodus 20:6
Loving your neighbor Leviticus 19:18
Joy 1 Kings 1:40 Isaiah 12:3
Peace exodus 18:23 Leviticus 3:6
Longsuffering and Goodness (God's attributes) Exodus 34:6
Gentleness 2 Samuel 22:36
Faith Habakkuk 2:4
Meekness Psalm 45:4
Temperance as in not to covet Exodus 20:17

Isaiah 32:15-17 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then judgment shall dwell in the wilderness, and righteousness remain in the fruitful field.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.

just-me · Oct 23, 2014

crossnote said:

Where's the love man? LOL
If you lick your own wounds you're supposed to lick mine too.

waaaawaaa ROTF LOL
thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: Leviticus 19:18b
Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:18

The law of Christ

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