Circumcision is not the law of Moses

[just-me]

It is ridiculous for people to keep mentioning that circumcision was instigated in the Sinaitic covenant, and then use it as an argument against the law as Paul wrote that it didn't mean anything in the New Covenant. It's time to wake up and smell the coffee!

Galatians 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Circumcision began as the sign of the covenant with Abraham extending to his seed which ultimately became Israel.
Genesis 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

There is no law of circumcision in the Sinaitic covenant. It is not the law of Moses.
John 7:22-23
22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken ; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Moses' son is circumcised before the 10 plagues in Egypt.
Exodus 4:26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

Circumcision of the stranger so they can participate in eating the passover lamb
Exodus 12:44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.

48 days after passover, Israel arrived at mount Sinai. There is no further mention of circumcision in the book of Exodus.

A year later, the temple was finally completed and the Levities were then given instructions.
Exodus 40:17 And it came to pass in the first month in the second year, on the first day of the month, that the tabernacle was reared up .

Relating to cleansing concerning giving birth and circumcising a woman's baby boy.
Leviticus 12:3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

What is commanded is the following verses(as we summarize the rebellion of Israel) in relation to Paul's writings in Colossians chapter 2. There is no controversy in scripture. The controversy comes from those that don't know the spiritual significance of circumcision written in the law.

Deuteronomy 10:6 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Colossians 2:10-11
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Those who are using this argument to negate the law should take note and do what God told the children of Israel and circumcise the foreskin of their heart no longer being stiffnecked. There is no valid argument against the law using this example.

 

[Selihah]

Are you saying that according to Paul outward circumcision is nolonger a necessity? Are you sure you want to follow Paul on that?

 

[KohenMatt]

Are you saying that according to Paul outward circumcision is nolonger a necessity?

It's not a necessity for salvation (never was), which is what Paul was teaching.

It's wise for Christians to do, though.

 

[RedTent]

Are you saying that according to Paul outward circumcision is nolonger a necessity?

Yes!! Outward circumcision was done to express the separation of God's people from those who rejected God. In the days it was asked of us, those who accepted God became Jews, as Ruth did. It also symbolized becoming spiritually minded. It was not the end of the law for these things, it was a lead to the law. Now we have the Holy Spirit to do this and physical circumcision is not needed. Even back when it was performed, if it was performed only by the letter and not the spirit, it was considered useless by the Lord.

 

[Mem]

It's not a necessity for salvation (never was), which is what Paul was teaching.

It's wise for Christians to do, though.

It may help to know the benefits of circumcision, and how it may relate to the heart. Added sensitivity? Cleanliness? Less likely to get caught in a zipper?

 

[Selihah]

If you and Paul say it is nolonger a necessity to be circumcised outwardly because you now have a spirit to guide you to salvaton. How do explain the words of our Creator when He said:

​"Behold, the days come, says Yehovah, that I will punish all those who are circumcised with the uncircumcised; Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the Ammonites, and Moab, and all who dwell in the wilderness; for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all of the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."

I don't have a spirit guide, just a high school education, eyes and a brain that can see and understand english. My take on this is the outwardly circumcised (Israel) whose heart is not circumcised will be punished with the uncircumcised Gentile nations. Therefore I would suggest that we are to be both circumcised outwardly and in are heart. Because if you are only circumcised ourtwardly and not in the heart you will thrown in and punished with the uncircumcised Gentiles.

I have more to post later.

 

[just-me]

If you and Paul say it is nolonger a necessity to be circumcised outwardly because you now have a spirit to guide you to salvaton. How do explain the words of our Creator when He said:

I don't have a spirit guide, just a high school education, eyes and a brain that can see and understand english. My take on this is the outwardly circumcised (Israel) whose heart is not circumcised will be punished with the uncircumcised Gentile nations. Therefore I would suggest that we are to be both circumcised outwardly and in are heart. Because if you are only circumcised ourtwardly and not in the heart you will thrown in and punished with the uncircumcised Gentiles.

I have more to post later.

There are some that could be offended talking about male genitals, but I'll be as prudent as possible. To begin with, the man sows the seed to procreate. Circumcision causes the sensitive nature to be more pronounced as to desire more frequency of intimacy. There is more concerning sensitivity, but I feel it not necessary. Therefore that is how Israel became such a huge people in a short time. There were only 70 that came to Egypt and hundreds of thousands who left after 430 years. Keeping the number of people in mind, there were only 2 people that crossed the Jordan who were over the age of 60 in the entire nation. Everybody else was 60 years old or younger. They multiplied extremely fast, and this was due to circumcision. That was the entire reason for circumcision. It is equated with the promise to Abraham and being the patriarch of a great nation.

Circumcising of the heart is to become sensitive to spiritual reproduction, and loving others as G-d has instructed in His law to Moses. We multiply by the principles/seed given and planted by spiritual relationships with others. This seed planting is also teaching our children with our circumcised heart that abides within us by G-d's instruction. Therefore, a circumcised heart becomes much more important in the law than a circumcised male organ as it was during the days of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel. From Abraham to the time of the exodus from Egypt physical circumcision was important for G-d's purpose and timetable for His will to be done. Nevertheless, circumcision of the heart was/is a priority that was given to Israel via Moses as directed by G-d for the purpose of showing the world G-d's greatness. G-d's priority today is the same as the law. It is having a sensitive/circumcised heart that is not stiffnecked/rebellious so others will see G-d's grace toward us as believers in Him, His statutes and precepts so we may live, and be blessed.

"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. (Deuteronomy 30:6)

 

[KohenMatt]

It may help to know the benefits of circumcision, and how it may relate to the heart. Added sensitivity? Cleanliness? Less likely to get caught in a zipper?

God told His people to do it as a sign of the covenant that they were a part of to be set apart.
While there is some debate, there are many health benefits to doing it, especially on the 8th day, as the body is better prepared to handle the circumcision.
It is cleaner to be circumcised.

 

[psychomom]

God told His people to do it as a sign of the covenant that they were a part of to be set apart.
While there is some debate, there are many health benefits to doing it, especially on the 8th day, as the body is better prepared to handle the circumcision.
It is cleaner to be circumcised.

unless one bathes daily?

(jk)

 

[just-me]

If you and Paul say it is nolonger a necessity to be circumcised outwardly because you now have a spirit to guide you to salvaton. How do explain the words of our Creator when He said:

Jeremiah 9:25-26

​"Behold, the days come, says Yehovah, that I will punish all those who are circumcised with the uncircumcised; Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the Ammonites, and Moab, and all who dwell in the wilderness; for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all of the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart. "

This following verse describes a "stiffnecked" attitude that has an uncircumcised heart. In this case physical circumcision is the same in the sight of G-d as not being circumcised physically.

Jeremiah 9:23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:

This next verse describes a sensitive attitude toward G-d's direction, and exemplifies a circumcised heart that sincerely desires understanding and knows G-d.

Jeremiah 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

G-d would have destroyed Israel because they didn't trust that He would take care of them under physically impossible circumstances. Moses pleaded with G-d not to destroy them, but there was only one way that G-d would not do that, and that would be if their hearts were circumcised even though they were circumcised physically. This is the story in Numbers, and then Moses recounts the story in Deuteronomy.

Numbers 14:11-12
11 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?
12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.

Numbers 14:20-22
20 And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word:
21 But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.
22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

Deuteronomy 10:10-14
10 And I stayed in the mount, according to the first time, forty days and forty nights; and the LORD hearkened unto me at that time also, and the LORD would not destroy thee.
11 And the LORD said unto me, Arise , take thy journey before the people, that they may go in and possess the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give unto them.
12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy G-d require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy G-d, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy G-d with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
13 To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy G-d, the earth also, with all that therein is.

Paul also recounts the story as he wrote in 1 Corinthians chapter 10. Take special note of verse 26.

Deuteronomy 10:15-22
15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day. 16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
17 For the LORD your G-d is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great G-d, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
18 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.
19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. (Moses makes a spiritual comparison)
20 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy G-d; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.
21 He is thy praise, and he is thy G-d, that hath done for thee these great and terrible things, which thine eyes have seen.
22 Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and ten persons; and now the LORD thy G-d hath made thee as the stars of heaven for multitude.

These principles also hold true in what many believers call the New Covenant.
Colossians 2:10-11
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (Messiah)

I refer you to this post

 

[Timeline]

Circumcision preceded the Law of Moses, but we are told:

Galatians 5:2
Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

Galatians 4-5
4 Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, [SUP]2 [/SUP]but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. [SUP]3 [/SUP]So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, [SUP]5 [/SUP]so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” [SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.[SUP]8 [/SUP]However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. [SUP]9 [/SUP]But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? [SUP]10 [/SUP]You observe days and months and seasons and years. [SUP]11 [/SUP]I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I beg of you, brethren, become as I am, for I also have become as you are. You have done me no wrong; [SUP]13 [/SUP]but you know that it was because of a bodily illness that I preached the gospel to you the first time; [SUP]14 [/SUP]and that which was a trial to you in my bodily condition you did not despise or loathe, but you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Where then is that sense of blessing you had? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your eyes and given them to me. [SUP]16 [/SUP]So have I become your enemy by telling you the truth? [SUP]17 [/SUP]They eagerly seek you, not commendably, but they wish to shut you out so that you will seek them. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But it is good always to be eagerly sought in a commendable manner, and not only when I am present with you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you— [SUP]20 [/SUP]but I could wish to be present with you now and to change my tone, for I am perplexed about you.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? [SUP]22 [/SUP]For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. [SUP]24 [/SUP]This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For it is written,
“Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For more numerous are the children of the desolate
Than of the one who has a husband.”

[SUP]28 [/SUP]And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. [SUP]29 [/SUP]But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. [SUP]30 [/SUP]But what does the Scripture say?
“Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”


[SUP]31 [/SUP]So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

5 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. [SUP]4 [/SUP]You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? [SUP]8 [/SUP]This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. [SUP]9 [/SUP]A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. [SUP]10 [/SUP]I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, [SUP]20 [/SUP]idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, [SUP]21 [/SUP]envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [SUP]23 [/SUP]gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

 

[just-me]

Circumcision preceded the Law of Moses, but we are told: in this post

I agree with all the scripture you posted but you are talking about 2 different things.

John 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

Whenever the law is mentioned we must take into consideration that there are 3 aspects to the law. The Torah is God's word not Moses' words. The Tanakh is the exacting of the instructions that are centered around loving God, the stranger, and our neighbor as ourselves commonly known as "commandments". The talmud is a document that has incorporated man's understanding to the truth henceforth making it imperfect unlike the original. This can be compared with the "letter of the law." All 3 aspects are labeled as only one (the law) which causes us to misunderstand what Paul was actually referring to. This misunderstanding contradicts what Paul actually believed and taught as we read Acts 24:14.

"But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets."

Let's keep this thread focused on the circumcision of the heart rather than the law that people say speaks of physical circumcision only. These religious beliefs are totally backwards knowing that physical circumcision began with the covenant of Abraham and circumcision of the heart began with the covenant of Israel.

 

[Selihah]

Paul has seemingly convinced many that circumcision is not neccessary. But will someone answer my question regarding that day when God will punish circumcised Israel with the uncircumcised Gentiles? Those are according to my understanding words not spoken by Moses, not Abraham, not Jesus's, nor Paul's words. They are Yehovah's.

It seems to me that Israel's outward circumcision is of no benefit unless their heart is as well. If they rely soley on the outward sign they (Israel) will be lumped together and punished with the Gentiles who are neither circumcised and care nothing of His covenent with Abraham.

 

[Zmouth]

Circumcision preceded the Law of Moses, but we are told:

Galatians 5:2
Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

How many 8 day old babies can knowing receive the circumcision?

Yet the circumcision sure blows the heck out the word of god being from everlasting to everlasting since Ishmael was 13 years old when Abraham circumcised him. But that 'man' child provision, Gen 17:12
if both male and female are mankind, that explains why the female circumcisions in certain areas of Africa.

So then if Paul is a Apostle of Jesus then that must have been Jesus that made the covenant with Abraham or else how would Paul have to the authority to usurp Abraham's God word?

 

[just-me]

Paul has seemingly convinced many that circumcision is not neccessary. But will someone answer my question regarding that day when God will punish circumcised Israel with the uncircumcised Gentiles? Those are according to my understanding words not spoken by Moses, not Abraham, not Jesus's, nor Paul's words. They are Yehovah's.

It seems to me that Israel's outward circumcision is of no benefit unless their heart is as well. If they rely soley on the outward sign they (Israel) will be lumped together and punished with the Gentiles who are neither circumcised and care nothing of His covenent with Abraham.

I answered your question on this post
and also this post

 

[Karraster]

Paul has seemingly convinced many that circumcision is not neccessary. But will someone answer my question regarding that day when God will punish circumcised Israel with the uncircumcised Gentiles? Those are according to my understanding words not spoken by Moses, not Abraham, not Jesus's, nor Paul's words. They are Yehovah's.

It seems to me that Israel's outward circumcision is of no benefit unless their heart is as well. If they rely soley on the outward sign they (Israel) will be lumped together and punished with the Gentiles who are neither circumcised and care nothing of His covenent with Abraham.

After studying what Paul really said, without all the wormwood of mainstream Christian tradition attached, it seems to me that Paul gave special instructions for Gentiles coming into the faith of Abraham, and that they were to start training in Torah and become learned in the way they are supposed to walk. This could mean that grown men were not expected to have surgery, but that from that point on their offspring would fall under the rules set out by our Creator, thus on the male children's 8th day....

I know this will offend many...however, that is my findings.

 

[just-me]

Paul has seemingly convinced many that circumcision is not neccessary. But will someone answer my question regarding that day when God will punish circumcised Israel with the uncircumcised Gentiles? Those are according to my understanding words not spoken by Moses, not Abraham, not Jesus's, nor Paul's words. They are Yehovah's.

It seems to me that Israel's outward circumcision is of no benefit unless their heart is as well. If they rely soley on the outward sign they (Israel) will be lumped together and punished with the Gentiles who are neither circumcised and care nothing of His covenent with Abraham.

Last but not least. I say that the circumcision of the heart has always been more important than the fleshly circumcision. Yes, Abraham was circumcised in the flesh as a seal of the covenant with Him. Because Abraham had faith in G-d's promise, it is evident that Abraham was not "stiffnecked" henceforth revealing that he was circumcised in the heart before circumcised in the flesh. His inward intentions were revealed by an outward significance. It has always been that way in everything G-d has ever endorsed.

 

[Zmouth]

They are Yehovah's.

Who is Yehovah?

 

[Timeline]

How many 8 day old babies can knowing receive the circumcision?

Yet the circumcision sure blows the heck out the word of god being from everlasting to everlasting since Ishmael was 13 years old when Abraham circumcised him. But that 'man' child provision, Gen 17:12
if both male and female are mankind, that explains why the female circumcisions in certain areas of Africa.

So then if Paul is a Apostle of Jesus then that must have been Jesus that made the covenant with Abraham or else how would Paul have to the authority to usurp Abraham's God word?

Galatians is not referring to babies. It is referring to men who were being told to receive circumcision to comply with the command given to Abraham and that carried over into the Law (I am not claiming that it was part of the "given Law of Moses", but the Israelites were told to be circumcised after the 40 years in the wilderness).

Paul was telling those that had not been circumcised that they did not need to be circumcised.

 

[ELECT]

Are you saying that according to Paul outward circumcision is nolonger a necessity? Are you sure you want to follow Paul on that?

[h=1]1 Corinthians 7:19King James Version (KJV)[/h]19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.