The Law is not good enough!

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BradC

Guest
#1
If the rich man kept the law from his youth up and it was not good enough for him to inherit eternal life, how can it be good for anything except to to make sin apparent when it is trespassed? The rich man was told by the Lord that he lacked one thing, to sell all he had and give it to the poor, take up his cross and come and follow Christ (Mark 10, Luke 18). The riches and his possessions stood in the way of the cross and following Christ. The things that take possession of the heart are the things that stop many from taking up a cross and following Christ into his way of salvation and eternal life. Keeping the law has never been good enough for any man to obtain the inheritance of eternal life. The cross is the only way, the only truth and the only life eternal we can obtain by faith and it comes through faith in the work of a person, Jesus Christ and not in keeping the law. It is very difficult for some to only accept Christ without the law being involved, but to include any part of the law would leaven the salvation that we have in the cross of Christ.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#2
Humans aren't good enough, and you are right about what you posted concerning the rich man. God is good enough however, and He gave the law. To say the law isn't good enough is saying that God isn't good enough either. Thank God for His only begotten Son, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. The law is good, we are not. Jesus came to change us, not what His Father ever said.

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.(John 14:10)

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.(John 8:28)
 
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BradC

Guest
#3
Nothing will ever take away from the fact that the law is holy and good and we are thankful for it. However, the law was not good enough and had no power to bring eternal salvation to those who kept and observed it. It was a schoolmaster in bringing many to Christ by revealing sin, but it had no power to deliver the goods of life eternal. Now that Christ has come and was crucified and rose from the dead, the Spirit convicts the world of sin because Christ has condemned sin in his own flesh. The Spirit does not convict the world of sin through the law but through the gospel with the message that sin has been paid for through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. This is the law of the Spirit of life that delivers the sinner from the error of his way, that covers a multitude of sin and delivers us from the body of sin and death. The law is not needed for the flesh because the Spirit has been given for that purpose through what was accomplished on the cross.
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,551
2,171
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#4
O.K. So lets get rid of the law - there's no law, and if there is no law.....Why do we need Jesus? No body has done anything wrong, because there is no law and if there is no law there's no sin.... So what's wrong with our world? Nothings wrong, right?
We don't need any law. Everything is fine.

Does anyone on this Christian chat site really believe this?

I don't.....Think about it.
 
O

oldthennew

Guest
#5
in all my years, I have never heard someone say that 'WORKS' will save them.

undoubtedly our works will determine our position in God's Kingdom.
(MATT.)5:19.

it is obvious to me that those who continue to argue a point that is just not there,
are addicted to 'strife and contention', two things that our Father in heaven tells
us to avoid.

I advise that once you have given your opinion in the matter, abstain from
unprofitable conversation and let the Holy Spirit lead.
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,551
2,171
113
#6
My point is that we need both in order for it to work...... We need the law to show us what God's rules are and what He expects of us. But without the sacrifice of Jesus we are totally lost. We are saved by the blood of Jesus, but if there is no law, then there is no rule book to follow so we need both in this world.

We need to know the law to show us what sin is and why we need a Savior. We can only be save by the blood of Jesus, but the perfect law of love is also valid.
 
Mar 4, 2013
7,761
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#7
O.K. So lets get rid of the law - there's no law, and if there is no law.....Why do we need Jesus? No body has done anything wrong, because there is no law and if there is no law there's no sin.... So what's wrong with our world? Nothings wrong, right?
We don't need any law. Everything is fine.

Does anyone on this Christian chat site really believe this?

I don't.....Think about it.
I don't either. It was by the grace of God that the law was given. Without the law we would not know transgression, and because of continuing transgressions, with this ignorance, we would have no chance for reconciliation. Are we actually adhering to a doctrine that teaches willful ignorance?

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

We cannot be with Him as we continue in sin even if we are ignorant to the sin. There is no excuse for this ignorance because we have the law.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

That's the enmity that has been destroyed through Christ Jesus. Common sense says that you cannot deal with something if you don't know it exists.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Because of human nature we cannot know God's will if we avoid His perfect instructions.

Read Leviticaus 19, Deuteronomy 18, and Deuteronomy 30.

What is the spiritual persuasion that demands us to look at the words of God's law as inferior rather than see ourselves as inferior?
 
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B

BradC

Guest
#8
O.K. So lets get rid of the law - there's no law, and if there is no law.....Why do we need Jesus? No body has done anything wrong, because there is no law and if there is no law there's no sin.... So what's wrong with our world? Nothings wrong, right?
We don't need any law. Everything is fine.

Does anyone on this Christian chat site really believe this?

I don't.....Think about it.
You miss what Jesus did through grace and truth and the blood of the cross because you have been blind-sided by the law. You are a do and do not do person and that is not being lead by the Spirit or walking in the Spirit. Let's use the act of adultery to illustrate because it is used in scripture. Not only has the law forbidden adultery but the Holy Spirit convicts me of adultery because it violates the nature of God. If I commit adultery I grieve the Spirit not the law. The law condemns me because of my transgression but the Spirit convicts me and provides grace to restore me through the blood of Christ. The purpose of the law is to expose sin and condemn the sinner. The purpose of the cross was to put away the sin of the flesh and provide redemption to sinful man by the blood of Christ through the Holy Spirit.

The act of adultery was already judged by the death that Christ suffered when he bore my sin on his own body on that tree. Because Christ was judged for my sin, I am no longer condemned by the law and the blood of Christ cleanses me from the unrighteousness of my act and takes away the effects of my sin. The law can only condemn me but never take away my sin or its effects. This is why that the ministration of the Spirits excels and exceeds the glory of the law and because it does it makes the law inoperative and abolishes it, along with its condemnation.

2 Cor 3:6-12

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
4,011
212
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#9
If the rich man kept the law from his youth up and it was not good enough for him to inherit eternal life, how can it be good for anything except to to make sin apparent when it is trespassed? The rich man was told by the Lord that he lacked one thing, to sell all he had and give it to the poor, take up his cross and come and follow Christ (Mark 10, Luke 18). The riches and his possessions stood in the way of the cross and following Christ. The things that take possession of the heart are the things that stop many from taking up a cross and following Christ into his way of salvation and eternal life. Keeping the law has never been good enough for any man to obtain the inheritance of eternal life. The cross is the only way, the only truth and the only life eternal we can obtain by faith and it comes through faith in the work of a person, Jesus Christ and not in keeping the law. It is very difficult for some to only accept Christ without the law being involved, but to include any part of the law would leaven the salvation that we have in the cross of Christ.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
You're right. The Law can not grant eternal life and salvation. It never could. But it was never intended to.

So we need to drop the argument against those who say "The Law saves", because there are very few, if any, here who believe that. And as oldthennew said,

it is obvious to me that those who continue to argue a point that is just not there,
are addicted to 'strife and contention', two things that our Father in heaven tells
us to avoid.

I advise that once you have given your opinion in the matter, abstain from
unprofitable conversation and let the Holy Spirit lead.
In other words,

Strawman argument. Move along. Nothing to see here.

Next topic.....
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#10
If the rich man kept the law from his youth up and it was not good enough for him to inherit eternal life, how can it be good for anything except to to make sin apparent when it is trespassed? The rich man was told by the Lord that he lacked one thing, to sell all he had and give it to the poor, take up his cross and come and follow Christ (Mark 10, Luke 18). The riches and his possessions stood in the way of the cross and following Christ. The things that take possession of the heart are the things that stop many from taking up a cross and following Christ into his way of salvation and eternal life. Keeping the law has never been good enough for any man to obtain the inheritance of eternal life. The cross is the only way, the only truth and the only life eternal we can obtain by faith and it comes through faith in the work of a person, Jesus Christ and not in keeping the law. It is very difficult for some to only accept Christ without the law being involved, but to include any part of the law would leaven the salvation that we have in the cross of Christ.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
You know I totally agree with you as Paul clearly teaches that a man is justified BEFORE God by FAITH WITHOUT the DEEDS of the LAW=works.........Unfortunately many will disregard this while adding their works, which according to Paul, and the book of Galatians teaches clearly that ANYONE who adds works to faith for salvation, and or to keep salvation teaches a gospel of a DIFFERENT kind which has NO POWER to save and is double cursed to HELL!
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
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#11
You're right. The Law can not grant eternal life and salvation. It never could. But it was never intended to.

So we need to drop the argument against those who say "The Law saves", because there are very few, if any, here who believe that. And as oldthennew said,



In other words,

Strawman argument. Move along. Nothing to see here.

Next topic.....
No offence there Matt, but everybody who teaches works for salvation teaches the law.....and if it is a straw man argument then maybe you can explain why Paul goes to great lengths to expose this heresy as a gospel of a different kind, with no power to save and is double cursed to hell...or maybe Romans and a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law....there seem to be quite a few who teach adherence to the law/works for salvation and it is heretical and is to be hammered on every account with the truth.....!
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
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#12
O.K. So lets get rid of the law - there's no law, and if there is no law.....Why do we need Jesus? No body has done anything wrong, because there is no law and if there is no law there's no sin.... So what's wrong with our world? Nothings wrong, right?
We don't need any law. Everything is fine.

Does anyone on this Christian chat site really believe this?

I don't.....Think about it.
Where in the OP did he say to get rid of the law? Another conclusion jumped to which seems to be the norm around this site by those who place themselves back under the law...or so it seems!
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#13
in all my years, I have never heard someone say that 'WORKS' will save them.

undoubtedly our works will determine our position in God's Kingdom.
(MATT.)5:19.

it is obvious to me that those who continue to argue a point that is just not there,
are addicted to 'strife and contention', two things that our Father in heaven tells
us to avoid.

I advise that once you have given your opinion in the matter, abstain from
unprofitable conversation and let the Holy Spirit lead.
Well, no offence, but you must be isolated, don't read or have bad vision as there are numerous people in here who teach that works save and or attempt to add works to Jesus for biblical salvation.....SO...I am having a hard time understanding how you can say that in good conscience........!
 
Mar 4, 2013
7,761
107
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#14
You miss what Jesus did through grace and truth and the blood of the cross because you have been blind-sided by the law. You are a do and do not do person and that is not being lead by the Spirit or walking in the Spirit. Let's use the act of adultery to illustrate because it is used in scripture. Not only has the law forbidden adultery but the Holy Spirit convicts me of adultery because it violates the nature of God. If I commit adultery I grieve the Spirit not the law. The law condemns me because of my transgression but the Spirit convicts me and provides grace to restore me through the blood of Christ. The purpose of the law is to expose sin and condemn the sinner. The purpose of the cross was to put away the sin of the flesh and provide redemption to sinful man by the blood of Christ through the Holy Spirit.

The act of adultery was already judged by the death that Christ suffered when he bore my sin on his own body on that tree. Because Christ was judged for my sin, I am no longer condemned by the law and the blood of Christ cleanses me from the unrighteousness of my act and takes away the effects of my sin. The law can only condemn me but never take away my sin or its effects. This is why that the ministration of the Spirits excels and exceeds the glory of the law and because it does it makes the law inoperative and abolishes it, along with its condemnation.

2 Cor 3:6-12

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
You didn't read Leviticus 19, Deuteronomy 18, and Deuteronomy 30. These are not condemning. http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/101219-law-not-good-enough.html#post1734157Let's just quote one verse and see if it is nothing more than condemnation.

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Now let's compare this law with the new covenant in Christ Jesus.
Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly ; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly ; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Colossians 2:10-11
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Luke 10:26-27
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Leviticus 19:11-18 sounds very positive to me as we follow the instructions of loving God's way that are written in the law. I'm not condemned by this and am very happy to have these instructions that extends God's righteousness toward me. This is very graceful on His part. I'm am chagrined that you are condemned by these instructions in righteousness. That is a very sorry circumstance.

11 Ye shall not steal , neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.
12 And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
13 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.
14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.
15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD. 17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge , nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
 
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KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
4,011
212
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#15
You're right dc, there are those out there who believe "salvation by works", and that is certainly what Paul is speaking against.

My concern is the continued argument that anyone who keeps the law is trusting in "salvation by works".

If someone wants to speak against "salvation by works", go for it. But they need to be careful that they're not lumping all law-keepers into that category.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#16
Well, no offence, but you must be isolated, don't read or have bad vision as there are numerous people in here who teach that works save and or attempt to add works to Jesus for biblical salvation.....SO...I am having a hard time understanding how you can say that in good conscience........!
I think it's the name of the thread that says "the law is not good enough". Common sense tells me to get rid of something that isn't good enough and get something better. Now concerning the law as not good enough that means that the One who gave it isn't good enough either. I don't think our Lord and Savior ever gave anything that eventually would have not purpose. The way I read scripture is that we live by all He has ever said, and that His word will last forever.
 
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Feb 21, 2012
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#17
I don't either. It was by the grace of God that the law was given. Without the law we would not know transgression, and because of continuing transgressions, with this ignorance, we would have no chance for reconciliation. Are we actually adhering to a doctrine that teaches willful ignorance?

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
UNTIL THE SEED SHOULD COME . . .
We cannot be with Him as we continue in sin even if we are ignorant to the sin. There is no excuse for this ignorance because we have the law.
We are not ignorant of sin because we have the word in our minds and written upon our hearts - we are led by the Holy Spirit and convicted by the Holy Spirit wherein we know when we have done wrong - ask forgiveness and live a life free of condemnation. The OT law was a check list for the nation of Israel to go by to gain righteousness and to bring them into a relationship with God. The law did not fail but man failed in his ability to keep the whole law. Jesus Christ came and gave us holy Spirit whereby we gain righteousness through faith in him and a relationship with God our Father.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

That's the enmity that has been destroyed through Christ Jesus. Common sense says that you cannot deal with something if you don't know it exists.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Because of human nature we cannot know God's will if we avoid His perfect instructions.

Read Leviticaus 19, Deuteronomy 18, and Deuteronomy 30.

What is the spiritual persuasion that demands us to look at the words of God's law as inferior rather than see ourselves as inferior?
Apparently the law was not good enough to bring righteousness - NOT because of the law but because of the sinful nature of man - Jesus Christ death and resurrection brought about a new and living way whereby one becomes righteous through faith in him - Christ fulfilled all the requirements of the Law and through our faith IN HIM we are accepted by God - then through the power of the Holy Spirit one obeys from the heart. [Rom. 6:17]

Hmmmm. . . the Gentiles didn't have the law but by nature did the things contained in the law because it was written on their hearts and their conscience also bore witness to them [Rom. 2:14,15]

But now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And the he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross,
having slain the enmity thereby . . . For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. [Eph. 2:13-16,18]

 
Mar 4, 2013
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#18
UNTIL THE SEED SHOULD COME . . .

We are not ignorant of sin because we have the word in our minds and written upon our hearts - we are led by the Holy Spirit and convicted by the Holy Spirit wherein we know when we have done wrong - ask forgiveness and live a life free of condemnation. The OT law was a check list for the nation of Israel to go by to gain righteousness and to bring them into a relationship with God. The law did not fail but man failed in his ability to keep the whole law. Jesus Christ came and gave us holy Spirit whereby we gain righteousness through faith in him and a relationship with God our Father.

Apparently the law was not good enough to bring righteousness - NOT because of the law but because of the sinful nature of man - Jesus Christ death and resurrection brought about a new and living way whereby one becomes righteous through faith in him - Christ fulfilled all the requirements of the Law and through our faith IN HIM we are accepted by God - then through the power of the Holy Spirit one obeys from the heart. [Rom. 6:17]

Hmmmm. . . the Gentiles didn't have the law but by nature did the things contained in the law because it was written on their hearts and their conscience also bore witness to them [Rom. 2:14,15]

But now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And the he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross,
having slain the enmity thereby . . . For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. [Eph. 2:13-16,18]

Why concentrate on a flaw that isn't God's? He gave it for a divine purpose that is perfect. Why not concentrate on our flaws in a positive manner that is directed toward God. Jesus came to change us, not God's laws. Why do we want to change what is everlasting and not focus on ourselves concerning the truth?
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
4,011
212
63
#19
I think it's the name of the thread that says "the law is not good enough". Common sense tells me to get rid of something that isn't good enough and get something better. Now concerning the law as not good enough that means that the One who gave it isn't good enough either. I don't think our Lord and Savior ever gave anything that eventually would have not purpose. The way I read scripture is that we live by all He has ever said, and that His word will last forever.
Exactly. That's my issue with it as well.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#20
You're right dc, there are those out there who believe "salvation by works", and that is certainly what Paul is speaking against.

My concern is the continued argument that anyone who keeps the law is trusting in "salvation by works".

If someone wants to speak against "salvation by works", go for it. But they need to be careful that they're not lumping all law-keepers into that category.
I can see that and would agree.....I also would state that the (big 10) in essence can be lumped in under Loving God and loving your neighbor.....it is the condemnation of the law that has been lifted for those who are in Christ, but it is still valid to not kill, steal, lie, have idols etc........Maybe a clarification on the Title of the OP.......