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Well Delivery, can you prove that one? Check out Rom 9 & Eph 1 for starters. If a child is not yet born & has done no good nor evil, how do you rule out elect or not? Why do you not agree that a person who is going to trust the SAvior and be born again, is not elect even before he does it?
Now you speak of "all those who confess Jesus as their Lord and Savior." Why do you use the word confess here? How many verses in the Bible do you have for confessing bringing salvation? How many do you have where believing/trusting/faith is the only requirement of salvation on man's part?
Do you know what the verb homologeo (translated "confess means"?)
Salvation is not by works. Thus if you mean "confess Jesus as Lord" as implying that you are promising to obey him for salvation, that is works.
Let's look at a basic passage on this topic; what do you think of this?:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: 4 even as
he chose us in him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be
holy and without blemish before him in love:
5 having foreordained us
unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved: 7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to
his good pleasure which he purposed in him
10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say, 11 in whom also we were made a heritage,
having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;
12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Now you speak of "all those who confess Jesus as their Lord and Savior." Why do you use the word confess here? How many verses in the Bible do you have for confessing bringing salvation? How many do you have where believing/trusting/faith is the only requirement of salvation on man's part?
Do you know what the verb homologeo (translated "confess means"?)
Salvation is not by works. Thus if you mean "confess Jesus as Lord" as implying that you are promising to obey him for salvation, that is works.
Let's look at a basic passage on this topic; what do you think of this?:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: 4 even as
he chose us in him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be
holy and without blemish before him in love:
5 having foreordained us
unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved: 7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to
his good pleasure which he purposed in him
10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say, 11 in whom also we were made a heritage,
having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;
12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Delivery, the idea of election is that in the ancient past, men were chosen by God to be saved. So far as I know, even Arminians grant you that, only they wish to explain it as based on God's foreknowledge of who would believe in the future. I suggest you read your Bible & mark the passages on this subject. Open Romans 9 & take a read, for example.
Alice-in-Wonderland interpretation.
If they are elect, the outcome is certain, however you explain it. In eternity past the outcome was settled long before man was created. The chain moves from foreknown to glorified, all using past tense.
Saying "not prestinated to Heaven" is absurd, because they are predestinated to be conformed to the Image of His Son that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."
If they are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ that implies Heaven. How could anyone be transformed to be as Christ and then denied Heaven???
If they are elect, the outcome is certain, however you explain it. In eternity past the outcome was settled long before man was created. The chain moves from foreknown to glorified, all using past tense.
Saying "not prestinated to Heaven" is absurd, because they are predestinated to be conformed to the Image of His Son that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."
If they are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ that implies Heaven. How could anyone be transformed to be as Christ and then denied Heaven???
C
Romans 9-11 is where Paul is addressing the issue of "the Jews" ... but even there - God foreknew how Abraham would respond to God's "calling" - which in the N.T. Greek means "invitation". "Many are invited but few are chosen."
God would not have called or chosen Abraham if Abraham was going to stay a rebellious pagan -- not with HIS Omniscience!
Search the Scriptures to find conditional salvation as well - besides all of those _ "if you will, I will" and "if you don't - I won't" type verses that God speaks that proves out that our God given 'freewill' has everything to do with how we respond to His invitation.
Atwood, I guess it was your large font that roused me.
God would not have called or chosen Abraham if Abraham was going to stay a rebellious pagan -- not with HIS Omniscience!
Search the Scriptures to find conditional salvation as well - besides all of those _ "if you will, I will" and "if you don't - I won't" type verses that God speaks that proves out that our God given 'freewill' has everything to do with how we respond to His invitation.
Atwood, I guess it was your large font that roused me.
Yes, great observation. But "Jews" is not the only thing mentioned. For example, "For whosoever" means everyone. And Gentiles are specifically mentioned. Esau was a gentile, for crying outloud.
So what do you do with this passage?:
6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: 7 neither, because they are Abraham’s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. 9 For this is a word of promise, According to this season will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. 10 And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac— 11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, 12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. 18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? 21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, 24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Hosea,
I will call that my people, which was not my people;
And her beloved, that was not beloved.
26 And it shall be, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people,
There shall they be called sons of the living God.
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Well, let's see you prove that calling always means invitation. I have read from Gen - Rev and marked all the passages on salvation -- I recommend that to you also.
Now what is your proof for that one? Do you have proof that God doesn't call those who will not respond in the invitational calling? But in Rom 8 everyone called is justified -- so that cannot be mere invitation, for as invitation, many are called, but few chosen. Yet in Rom 8 all the foreknown are called, the called are justified, the justified are glorified.
I have already done my searching. Have you? How does if this, then that prove free will? If you want to go on about free will, how about quoting some verses that address the subject. How about "The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, He turns it withersoever He will." Have you given heed to passages where God appears to override the human will? Does God ever turn me & I shall be turned? Does God ever turn hearts?
Actually Christians disagree on election & explain it differently. But just theorizing doesn't establish much.
Now tell me, when you die where you will go & how do you know?
So what do you do with this passage?:
6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: 7 neither, because they are Abraham’s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. 9 For this is a word of promise, According to this season will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. 10 And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac— 11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, 12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. 18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? 21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, 24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Hosea,
I will call that my people, which was not my people;
And her beloved, that was not beloved.
26 And it shall be, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people,
There shall they be called sons of the living God.
-----------
Well, let's see you prove that calling always means invitation. I have read from Gen - Rev and marked all the passages on salvation -- I recommend that to you also.
Now what is your proof for that one? Do you have proof that God doesn't call those who will not respond in the invitational calling? But in Rom 8 everyone called is justified -- so that cannot be mere invitation, for as invitation, many are called, but few chosen. Yet in Rom 8 all the foreknown are called, the called are justified, the justified are glorified.
I have already done my searching. Have you? How does if this, then that prove free will? If you want to go on about free will, how about quoting some verses that address the subject. How about "The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, He turns it withersoever He will." Have you given heed to passages where God appears to override the human will? Does God ever turn me & I shall be turned? Does God ever turn hearts?
Actually Christians disagree on election & explain it differently. But just theorizing doesn't establish much.
Now tell me, when you die where you will go & how do you know?
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C
The 'absurdity' that you think you see is in term or 'how' God uses the word 'predestinate'. Each place that that word is used [look it up] it's predestinated 'to' something that comes 'with' salvation. Talking about 'those verses' that use that term. It's not a term used regarding a person being "elected or chosen" to be saved without God's foreknowledge of what their response will be to His invitation and they will accept the "invitation" by their own freewill. God doesn't create robots with no freewill to choose.... "Choose you this day whom you will serve".
Commands that require a man's freewill are through-out the Old & New Testaments and their salvation hinges upon their ultimate and final decision of whether to obey His Words or not.
God says regarding His commands that go along with His invitation - "If you will - I will" --- "If you don't - I won't" - from cover to cover. Ezekiel 3:18-21 is just one of hundreds of examples ... and those type examples run right through from the O.T. to the N.T., to the Revelation.
No yellow brick road if you read it without a preformed-chosen bias formed from Augustine/Calvin & Co. Just read The Word as it's written literally.
Even the word "heresy" means "choice, the opinion chosen" .... that's More freewill.
My main point is - God does not just randomly decide before the foundations of the world, who He'll send to Hell without a very good reason ... that they rejected His call, His Words and obedience to them.
God is not willing that any should perish but that all would come unto repentence!
Commands that require a man's freewill are through-out the Old & New Testaments and their salvation hinges upon their ultimate and final decision of whether to obey His Words or not.
God says regarding His commands that go along with His invitation - "If you will - I will" --- "If you don't - I won't" - from cover to cover. Ezekiel 3:18-21 is just one of hundreds of examples ... and those type examples run right through from the O.T. to the N.T., to the Revelation.
No yellow brick road if you read it without a preformed-chosen bias formed from Augustine/Calvin & Co. Just read The Word as it's written literally.
Even the word "heresy" means "choice, the opinion chosen" .... that's More freewill.
My main point is - God does not just randomly decide before the foundations of the world, who He'll send to Hell without a very good reason ... that they rejected His call, His Words and obedience to them.
God is not willing that any should perish but that all would come unto repentence!
E
Christ is coming back to earth (Zechariah:14:3-4), it makes good sense that that's where we will be.Jesus said that we would be with Him: "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also" (John:14:3; compare Isaiah:11:1-9). But where will Jesus be ? Clearly, Jesus is coming back to earth and we will reign with Him here, not in or from heaven. ( Rev 20:4-6 )
C
Atwood, about post #28 --- first off you said "Esau was a gentile" .... with Isaac as a father & Abraham as his grand-father??
It was said that the older would serve the younger brother because God 'foreknew' that Esau would give away his 'birth-right' for a pot of stew.
Next you misquoted me -- I didn't post that calling "always" means invitation. I gave one of the verses directly after that, that uses the word "called" using G2821/2 = invite/invitation. There are other verses like the one I gave as an example in my post that use that particular Greek word as the one I gave you.
Understanding God's ability to know in advance what people will do and combining His Divine sovereignty --- Foreknowledge & Sovereignty --- if you can grasp that combined with His Omniscience as well - you would see how God can work all things together to have a people that choose Him of their own freewill. It may look to you as though these people have been controlled as automatons but God knew what Pharoah's heart would do when he'd be confronted by the True & Living God.
"The same sun that hardens clay - melts ice." In other words - the condition of a man's heart will either bend/melt when confronted with the LORD or harden. God is saying "I" have hardened his heart" - well yes, because of Pharoah's rotten condition, being exposed to the Most High God has that affect on reprobates. Just like the parable of the seeds and the differing places they are sown ... it's all a heart condition and a condition that God knew about that person before the foundations of the world.
To quote you again ... "Now what is your proof for that one? Do you have proof that God doesn't call those who will not respond in the invitational calling?"
In the post you were reponding - I quoted this verse before bringing up Abraham's response to God's calling .... "Many are invited [called] but few are chosen." so I don't know where you are getting this that I didn't say. I believe that God gives the invitation to 'all' [Rom 1 as well] but few are chosen/elect [same word] because their heart is not truly in a condition to receive the Word of God [made flesh or written].
Well, because this conversation is leading no-where & to misquotes & insults and I knew these debates on this topic always does - I can't go on with an age old conflict in The Church and hadn't planned to - from my first post on page one.
It's a free country Atwood and although I attend & am a member of a Reformed Church where I used to live, they don't expect me to agree with Calvinism, at all.
Imagine that!
Signing out now.
Have a peace-filled Monday.
It was said that the older would serve the younger brother because God 'foreknew' that Esau would give away his 'birth-right' for a pot of stew.
Next you misquoted me -- I didn't post that calling "always" means invitation. I gave one of the verses directly after that, that uses the word "called" using G2821/2 = invite/invitation. There are other verses like the one I gave as an example in my post that use that particular Greek word as the one I gave you.
Understanding God's ability to know in advance what people will do and combining His Divine sovereignty --- Foreknowledge & Sovereignty --- if you can grasp that combined with His Omniscience as well - you would see how God can work all things together to have a people that choose Him of their own freewill. It may look to you as though these people have been controlled as automatons but God knew what Pharoah's heart would do when he'd be confronted by the True & Living God.
"The same sun that hardens clay - melts ice." In other words - the condition of a man's heart will either bend/melt when confronted with the LORD or harden. God is saying "I" have hardened his heart" - well yes, because of Pharoah's rotten condition, being exposed to the Most High God has that affect on reprobates. Just like the parable of the seeds and the differing places they are sown ... it's all a heart condition and a condition that God knew about that person before the foundations of the world.
To quote you again ... "Now what is your proof for that one? Do you have proof that God doesn't call those who will not respond in the invitational calling?"
In the post you were reponding - I quoted this verse before bringing up Abraham's response to God's calling .... "Many are invited [called] but few are chosen." so I don't know where you are getting this that I didn't say. I believe that God gives the invitation to 'all' [Rom 1 as well] but few are chosen/elect [same word] because their heart is not truly in a condition to receive the Word of God [made flesh or written].
Well, because this conversation is leading no-where & to misquotes & insults and I knew these debates on this topic always does - I can't go on with an age old conflict in The Church and hadn't planned to - from my first post on page one.
It's a free country Atwood and although I attend & am a member of a Reformed Church where I used to live, they don't expect me to agree with Calvinism, at all.
Imagine that!
Signing out now.
Have a peace-filled Monday.
