Elect, or Gods chosen people

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Markum1972

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2013
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#61
I know the Bible talks about the elect. I believe that God would have all that believes in Jesus Christ and repents of their sins that they would be saved. Is there another point of view on this subject?
The elect are those that are the strongest in faith; this is why it is written "even the elect if possible" when referring to those that will be deceived.

Strongest in faith meaning that they are those that trust nothing they are told unless it comes directly by hearing from God on the matter; not through teachers nor personal understanding through study, but by hearing from God.

And... what Elect has said.
 

Markum1972

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2013
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#62
Your're right. God's elect are all those who confess Jesus as their Lord and Savior and therefore have all their sins forgiven, washed clean by the blood of the Lamb. There are no other elect but born again Christians.
There are not merely born again Christians for it is written that even many of them shall be deceived. 1 Timothy 4 They are as Elect has described and are those that remain faithful until the end.
 

Markum1972

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2013
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#63
It is a much easier concept than many are making it.

God CHOOSES those that remain faithful. Those are the CHOSEN of the elect.
 

Markum1972

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2013
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#64
Thanks for your impute. I am still searching on this subject. A vendor of mine at work keeps preaching Elect, Gods chosen ones, everyone else is going straight to hell. I struggle with that from an all loving God.
The vendor is incorrect.

In 1 Thessalonians 4, it discusses...

Those that are asleep in Jesus and those that are alive in Christ. Here it says to be comforted that God will gather to himself those that are asleep in Jesus.

The elect are those that endure until the day of the Lord through the greatest of tribulations that the earth has ever seen. This is written about in Revelations as well and indicates the number of them.

To understand this, you must also understand who Israel is NOW since the gentiles were grafted in. Many will tell you that they are Jews. This is false. The scriptures say Israel.

There will be 144,000 present at Mount Zion that have endured the times of great sorrows to greet the Lord at his coming on the great and terrible day of the Lord.
 

vic1980

Senior Member
Apr 25, 2013
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#65
Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

are called,and chosen, and faithful.


Faithful Definition
Strong's Concordance

pistos: faithful, reliable
Original Word: πιστός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pistos
Phonetic Spelling: (pis-tos')
Short Definition: trustworthy, faithful, believing
Definition: trustworthy, faithful, believing.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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#67
Your friend likely is talking about Five Point Calvinism
Interesting how people want to go on about Calvinism, as if "Calvinism" established anything. It is the word of God. But since you want to go on about Calvinism, note that Christians disagree among themselves on some of these issue, not all of which are crucial to being a child of God. Norman Geissler is 1 point Calvinist (Eternal Security only), Thiessen's Systematic Theology is 2 point Calvinist (foreknowledge of belief theory), Chafer is 4 point -- all good Christians, IMHO.

I will give my IMHO on Calvinism vs opponents before giving Bible:

Calvinism is based on a careful examination of Bible verse & correlation of the relative passages. You just can't blow off election & predestination, because the Bible clearly teaches it, as any concordance will tell you.

On the other hand, the objectors base their theories on what seems right to them, not scripture. It seems outrageous to some that man should not have free will, that God should decide before they were born who was going to be saved. It just seems unfair. IMHO, that is the ground of their argument, not scripture.

Examples of this kind of thinking:
1) If someone does something for one, he must do it for all (you heard that one in school: Well, If I let you play on the swing, I have to let everyone play on the swing. (Not Bible).

2) It is monstrously unthinkable that God would roast men in a Lake of Fire forever; that can't be becs it makes God a sadistic monster. Would you put a cat in the microwave? Thus annihilation must be the fate of the damned. (Not Bible).

3) Everyone must get an equal chance, or God is unfair. (not Bible).

4) Men are not all bad, they are mixed good & bad, or in fact basically good. Actually it is only a few rotten apples in the barrel, like Adolf Hitler. (Not Bible)

Thus I put it to you that Arminianism is based upon the innate feeling of right & wrong, justice vs injustice, fairness, outrage that man is a robot, and the like; but not based on Bible.

The post you made starts out with a lot of generalization & no scripture; thus it is of little value.


I agree with the concept of Total Depravity only to the point where man cannot be good enough to ‘earn’ his/her salvation.

But the Word says:
All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;
there is none that doeth good, no not one.
Romans 1-3 lays it out in graphic detail.


Mankind does posses the ability to do good in this world. I know some very good and nice unbelievers.

Now there we have it, readers. "I know some . . . ." This is not scripture.

Here’s the thing: No one goes to Hell for the sins that they commit; they go to Hell because of the sin of First Adam (Romans 5). I think there are obvious exceptions for the innocent among us, such as the young and infirmed who cannot choose Christ. Perhaps [blah blah]
No, that's not the thing, for you prove nothing from scripture. You have not proven that when Adam sinned, they were not also there and sinned with Adam by being seminally present in him. But aside from that m if men go to the Lake of Fire because of being in Adam, that does not exclude the fact that they also go there for their own sins.

The soul that sins, it shall die.
The wages of sin is death. The Lake of Fire is the second death.
Men are judged each for their own works, and the outcome is the Lake of Fire:


"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. 15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."


" Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 who will render to every man according to his works: 7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: 8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation, 9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek; "

"whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire."

Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement
These are 2 different doctrines which should not be confused.

Unconditional Election asserts that there is nothing good in man which leads to his election; and it is not conditioned upon foreknowledge that man would believe. The foreknowledge of belief is just a hypothesis, not expressed in scripture. And I don't quite understand this myself. So far as I know, why God chose some & not others is not revealed, though we know that those He chose He chose in grace.

Titus 2:11 has nothing to do with it. Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. (loose translation?)

The offer is freely given to those who will accept the Gift of Righteousness. There are not those ‘chosen’ to be saved and those ‘chosen’ to be damned. That is a lie from the Pit.
Well, your saying it proves nothing. A very common POV is that out of the pool of depraved men, men heading for the Lake of Fire, God chose some to be saved -- double election is not a necessary part of this doctrine.
The universal offer of salvation has absolutely no implication as to election. Many are called, but few are chosen. If God offers salvation to all who will trust Christ as Savior that proves nothing on this subject. Suppose you postulate that in God's mind salvation is offered to all, but God seeing that no one is a taker, elected some to be regenerated to show His grace anyway.

What whatever you postulate, the fact remains that there is no logical connection between the universal offer to whosoever will believe, and election.


Unconditional Election is interwoven with the concept of ‘Limited Atonement’
No, it is not. There are many 4 pointers who teach unconditional election & unlimited atonement with L S Chafer.

J Oliver Buswell, in his Systematic Theology teaches that the dispute on limited vs unlimited atonement is an error. His claim is that both sides believe the same thing:
1) Christ's death is sufficient to pay for all men's sins.
2) Christ's death is not efficient in saving all men (some go to the Lake).

Sufficient for all, efficient only for the elect, is his POV.

Your expletive proves nothing.

You might quote 1 John 2:2 & John 3:16 for unlimited atonement. But you might also quote Romans 6 where only those in Christ have the Old Man crucified with Christ by virtue of the Baptism into Christ (not water). Only believers enjoy this co-crucifixion, which is something more than atonement.

God is clear in His Word that the Work of Christ resulted in the forgiveness of the sins of the WHOLE world (John 3, Rom. 5, 2 Cor. 5, 1 John 2 and others).
No, those verses do not teach that at all. Utter nonsense.

Irresistible Grace

This section of your argument is invalid because it has no scripture quote whatsoever. It is just you. And we wait for you to prove what scripture says on "free will" -- quote verses where free and / or will occur.


Perseverance of the Saints
Again, scoffing without Bible quotes proves nothing.
Scripture is clear over & over that once saved, saved.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
Jesus Christ, the Author & Perfecter of our faith.
He Who began a good work in you will complete it.


" Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

The born again child of God cannot be unborn.
The gifts & calling of God are irrevocable (Rom 11).
Believers do not "shrink back" Hebrews 10
"But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul."
The overcomer is promised to never be blotted out of the book (Revelation) & the overcomer is defined as the believer (1 John).

I suggest that you get out your Bible & put away any denominational dogma; mark all the passages on salvation.

Rom 8

There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
. . .
The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: 17 and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; . . .


he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. 29 For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: 30 and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them
he also justified: and whom he justified, them
he also glorified.



31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; 34 who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 . . .
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.




 
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Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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#68
It is a much easier concept than many are making it.

God CHOOSES those that remain faithful. Those are the CHOSEN of the elect.


Now Markum.
Now you can stop making things up & start quoting scripture.
The choosing occurred before the foundation of the world.

You might consider this one:


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world,

that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: 5 having 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
5
having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved: 7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him 10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say, 11 in whom also

we were made a heritage,
having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;

12
to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.




Romans 9


1 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, 12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.


14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. 18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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#69
A key scripture related to this topic is this one:

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for
He shall save His people from their sins.
 
May 2, 2014
1,060
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#70


The text does not say Jews.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus.

[Not just Jews, but them who are in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace: 7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be: 8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
[Not just Jews, but any man in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]

10
And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
[Not just Jews, but them who are indwelt by Christ's Spirit, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]

12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh: 13 for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
[Not just Jews, but them who are in Christ & sons of God, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]

15
For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:
[Not just Jews, but them who are children of God, neither Jew nor Greek]

17
and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.
[Not just Jews, all the joint-heirs with Christ, who will be glorified with him.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward.
[Not just Jews, but us is them who are in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]

19
For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.
[Not just Jews, but sons of God

20
For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit,
[Not just Jews, but ourselves = them who are in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]

even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
[Not just Jews, but them whose body will be redeemed

24
For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth? 25 But if we hope for that which we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

[Not just Jews, but them who are in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]

26 And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered; 27 and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
[Not just Jews, but saints who are in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]

28
And we know that to them that love God
[Not just Jews, but them who love God

all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose.
[Not just Jews]

29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: 30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

GOLDEN CHAIN OF SALVATION. [Not just Jews, but many brethren]

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; 34 who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Not just Jews, but them who are in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]

IT IS ALICE-IN-WONDERLAND TO CLAIM THAT ROMANS 8 REFERS JUST TO JEWS. BUT YOU WOULD HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM WITH THEIR ELECTION BEING CERTAIN.


Read the book. Paul begins to address the Jewish believers in Rome in chapter 2 verse 17. He continues this address to chapter 11 verse 13 where he turns his attention to the Gentiles. So, when he write Romans 828-30 he is addressing Jewish Christians.



First you need to quote one verse that says that Judas was elect or chosen to be saved. Give even one verse that says he was ever saved, instead of demon possessed.
Moving the goal posts, huh? First you said if they were elect the outcome was sure. Judas was elect.

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? (Joh 6:70 KJV)




More Alice IN Wonderland. Yes, Paul implied that to be absent from body was to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor 5. He also, BTW, was taken up to the 3rd Heaven in His life, as was John, if in vision.
If you read the whole passage instead of just one verse you'll see that Paul is actually saying the opposite of what you're claiming in that passage. Being caught up to Heaven in a vision doesn't equate to believers going to Heaven when theu die.


To make John 14 refer to the temple on earth is nonsense, which temple was going to be soon destroyed & never be a dwelling for anyone after that.

Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4

The Lord Jesus was not going away to the Temple on earth, but to Heaven, where He is today. But this has little to do with this thread.
Notice in the passage He said He would return so that where He is they can be also. He said He would come again, He didn't say I'll send for you or you'll come to me.

My Father's house.

13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
(Joh 2:13-17 KJV)

Search the Scriptures, My Father's house is the temple not Heaven.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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#71
The Elect cannot be literally all men, in the sense of all-who-ever-lived-and-ever-will-live. Else the word Elect would make no sense. The Elect are the Church, consisting of believing jew and gentile. Chosen by God in Christ before the foundation of the world.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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#72


I have read Romans over & over. I believe at one time I memorized the whole thing in Greek, one verse at a time (not cumulatively) -- also the same with other books. I also at one time attempted to cover every commentary's comments in English, French, German, Italian, Spanish, & Dutch -- as many as I could get my hands on or access to using a number of libraries in different cities, over crucial passage relative to flesh -- not omitting Journal Articles.

I already exploded your Jewish theory in detail for Romans 8. It is simply wrong. And as I recall I went over the chapters also with you. So you saying it proves nothing. It is not addressed merely to Jews, and if it were, that would not solve your election problem, for then you would have the same problem with only Jews (which is absurd).

You're saying Judas was elect is bogus, if you mean elect to salvation. We all know that he was chosen to be an apostle. He didn't choose the devil (as it were) Judas to be saved or to enter the Kingdom or to have eternal life.

You seem fixated on trying to argue against Heaven; I suppose it is a doctrinal hobby of yours. Whether it is Heaven or the New Earth where man will find future bliss, whether it is soul sleep or immediately in Christ's presence when you die, this has nothing to do with salvation or being elect. If you err on these doctrines, it won't damn you to the Lake of Fire. Failing to trust the Savior though means you fail the only possible rescue from the awful fate of the damned. So you are wrong on denying Heaven, & you cannot prove that believers fail to go to Heaven when they die.

If you read the whole passage instead of just one verse
OK Butch, how many times have you read the Bible through? I have read it through over & over, times beyond counting, even marking all the passages on salvation. Where do you stack up on that?

Trying to make the Temple destroyed in AD 70 the FAther's house with many dwelling places, is absurd. The part of the temple you quote was the courtyard -- not dwelling places.

If the Temple on earth was God's House, how much more the Heavenly Temple is God's house.


19 And there was opened the temple of God that is in heaven; and there was seen in his temple the ark of his covenant; and there followed lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail.

But since you want to debate the Intermediate State of the Christian, I guess I will accommodate you tomorrow.

Do you wish to dwell in the House of YHWH forever? --
Now if you want to dwell there, I suggest you trust Christ as only & Sufficient Savior, having confessed that He is the 2nd Person of the Trinity, YHWH Who became man & has the name above all names.
 
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Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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#73
The Elect cannot be literally all men, in the sense of all-who-ever-lived-and-ever-will-live. Else the word Elect would make no sense. The Elect are the Church, consisting of believing jew and gentile. Chosen by God in Christ before the foundation of the world.
Good evening Tribesman.
The Church didn't start until Pentecost. OT saints were also elect. In fact one reason why I think Paul has such great success with the gospel is that in most cities where there were Jews living, there were already men saved under the Old Covenant, having trusted YHWH as Savior without knowing about the Trinity. So these already saved would believe in the the Lord Jesus when they found out about him.

Surely Abe, Isaac, Jacob, David, & John the Baptist were elect, along with the hall of fame in Hebrews 11 -- and many others.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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#74
Good evening Tribesman.
The Church didn't start until Pentecost. OT saints were also elect. In fact one reason why I think Paul has such great success with the gospel is that in most cities where there were Jews living, there were already men saved under the Old Covenant, having trusted YHWH as Savior without knowing about the Trinity. So these already saved would believe in the the Lord Jesus when they found out about him.

Surely Abe, Isaac, Jacob, David, & John the Baptist were elect, along with the hall of fame in Hebrews 11 -- and many others.
I do not agree with you here. The church always existed, and the gospel was also preached and believed in the Old Covenant.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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#75
As to Butch's fixation on trying to deny Heaven, (off thread), let me observe that neither the Tabernacle, nor the Temple per se, had dwelling places for people to live. Ordinary men could not even enter; only priests, and there were no beds nor even chairs. It was a place for sacrificing animals.

Now there may have been associated dwellings in Herod's huge Temple Complex -- I don't know any Bible reference to such, however. As I recall, the skunk Tobiah in Nehemiah was given a chamber in the Temple complex, but Nehemiah threw him out.

7 and I came to Jerusalem, and understood the evil that Eliashib had done for Tobiah, in preparing him a chamber in the courts of the house of God. 8 And it grieved me sore: therefore I cast forth all the household stuff of Tobiah out of the chamber. 9 Then I commanded, and they cleansed the chambers: and thither brought I again the vessels of the house of God, with the meal-offerings and the frankincense.


'And there was opened the temple of God that is in heaven; and there was seen in his temple the ark of his covenant; and there followed lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail. '

In my Father's house are many dwellings, cannot apply to the earthly Temple.
 
May 2, 2014
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#76


I have read Romans over & over. I believe at one time I memorized the whole thing in Greek, one verse at a time (not cumulatively) -- also the same with other books. I also at one time attempted to cover every commentary's comments in English, French, German, Italian, Spanish, & Dutch -- as many as I could get my hands on or access to using a number of libraries in different cities, over crucial passage relative to flesh -- not omitting Journal Articles.

I already exploded your Jewish theory in detail for Romans 8. It is simply wrong. And as I recall I went over the chapters also with you. So you saying it proves nothing. It is not addressed merely to Jews, and if it were, that would not solve your election problem, for then you would have the same problem with only Jews (which is absurd).


So then you read the verse where Paul begins to address the Jewish believers at Rome? The letter of Romans was written to the entire church, however, in the letter Paul addresses the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers respectively. At chapter 2 verse 17 Paul turns his attention to the Jewish believers.

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; (Rom 2:17-18 KJV)

He continues this discourse with the Jewish believers through to chapter 11 verse 13 where he turns his attention to the Gentiles.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: (Rom 11:13 KJV)

So, chapter 8 is part of the discourse in which Paul is addressing the Jewish believers. Now, the verses in question,

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Rom 8:29-30 KJV)

Who are those that God foreknew? First of all we see from the preceding verse, verse 28 that they are those who loved God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (Rom 8:28 KJV)

They are the called, 'those He predestined He called. Notice they are called according to His purpose. His purpose is the fulfillment of the promises made to Abraham, which we see he elaborates on in chapter 9.

Verses 29-30 are not some chain of salvation, they are describing God's dealing with mean in the past. In verse 28 Paul says "for we know," the Greek word is "oidamen" and it means to see or to know and is in the perfect tense. A good translation would be, we have seen, or, we have perceived. The perfect tense indicates a past completed action whose results continue to the present (Paul's day). So Paul is referring to something that happened in the past and the results of that event had continued until his day, that being that God works all things together for those who loved Him. Looking at the typical understanding of this passage the "chain of salvation," one of the first questions that arises is, how would Paul's Jewish readers have seen or perceived in the past some events that would take place in the future?

So, it's clear that Paul is referring to the past, but what in the past is he referring to? He's referring to men who He has called who have loved Him. In the passage in Romans 8 Paul is comforting the Jewish believers who are being persecuted and he points to God's former dealings with those who love Him, men like David, Abraham, Joseph, Jacob, etc. Joseph is great example, left in a pit and sold into slavery yet God turned it into something that would save many lives and Joseph was glorified and second in all of Egypt. Paul's point is look at what God has done for those men who loved Him. This is a comforting thought for those who love God.

Then Paul explains that those who God foreknew He also, predestined, called, justified and glorified. The first thing we notice is that all of the verbs a in the past tense, so they indicate past action, not future. This presents another problem for the "chain of salvation" interpretation which claims the glorification is future, Paul said it was past. However, God did, predestine, call, justify, and glorify, those in the past who loved Him. He predestined Isaac and Jacob, in choosing each of them over the brother. He told Abraham, 'in Isaac your seed will be called.' Paul goes on in chapter 9 of Romans to layout God's plan and how He started with Abraham, then chose Isaac, then chose Jacob. God chose these men to be the ones through which He would fulfill the promises, 'through your seed all the nations shall be blessed.'

How do we know that those that God foreknew are Jews? Paul told us so.

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, (Rom 11:1-2 KJV)




You're saying Judas was elect is bogus, if you mean elect to salvation. We all know that he was chosen to be an apostle. He didn't choose the devil (as it were) Judas to be saved or to enter the Kingdom or to have eternal life.
Judas was chosen among the twelve, so whatever you want to say the twelve were chosen for he was one of them. Whatever Peter and John were chosen for Judas was also. So, you have to say that the choosing wasn't for salvation or that Judas was chosen for salvation and lost. You can't have it both ways.


You seem fixated on trying to argue against Heaven; I suppose it is a doctrinal hobby of yours. Whether it is Heaven or the New Earth where man will find future bliss, whether it is soul sleep or immediately in Christ's presence when you die, this has nothing to do with salvation or being elect. If you err on these doctrines, it won't damn you to the Lake of Fire. Failing to trust the Savior though means you fail the only possible rescue from the awful fate of the damned. So you are wrong on denying Heaven, & you cannot prove that believers fail to go to Heaven when they die.
Well, you're correct in that you can't prove a negative, however, I can prove that there is not a single statement in Scripture that says believers go to Heaven when they die. I present as evidence, the Bible.



OK Butch, how many times have you read the Bible through? I have read it through over & over, times beyond counting, even marking all the passages on salvation. Where do you stack up on that?
That's not really relevant to the issue. However, I listen more that read and have listened to the NT more than the OT and have listened to the NT more times than I can remember. You see I have the luxury of being able to listen all day long while at work and with an average of 1-2 hours of drive time to and from work I can spend a great deal of time listening to the Bible over and over and over

Trying to make the Temple destroyed in AD 70 the FAther's house with many dwelling places, is absurd. The part of the temple you quote was the courtyard -- not dwelling places.
It's not the least bit absurd when Jesus Himself called the temple, "My Father's house."

If the Temple on earth was God's House, how much more the Heavenly Temple is God's house.
19 And there was opened the temple of God that is in heaven; and there was seen in his temple the ark of his covenant; and there followed lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail. [/quote[

However, just because there is a temple in Heaven doesn't mean Christians will go there.

But since you want to debate the Intermediate State of the Christian, I guess I will accommodate you tomorrow.

Do you wish to dwell in the House of YHWH forever? --
Now if you want to dwell there, I suggest you trust Christ as only & Sufficient Savior, having confessed that He is the 2nd Person of the Trinity, YHWH Who became man & has the name above all names.
According to John one must believe that Jesus is the Christ.
 
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May 2, 2014
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As to Butch's fixation on trying to deny Heaven, (off thread), let me observe that neither the Tabernacle, nor the Temple per se, had dwelling places for people to live. Ordinary men could not even enter; only priests, and there were no beds nor even chairs. It was a place for sacrificing animals.

Now there may have been associated dwellings in Herod's huge Temple Complex -- I don't know any Bible reference to such, however. As I recall, the skunk Tobiah in Nehemiah was given a chamber in the Temple complex, but Nehemiah threw him out.

7 and I came to Jerusalem, and understood the evil that Eliashib had done for Tobiah, in preparing him a chamber in the courts of the house of God. 8 And it grieved me sore: therefore I cast forth all the household stuff of Tobiah out of the chamber. 9 Then I commanded, and they cleansed the chambers: and thither brought I again the vessels of the house of God, with the meal-offerings and the frankincense.


'And there was opened the temple of God that is in heaven; and there was seen in his temple the ark of his covenant; and there followed lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail. '

In my Father's house are many dwellings, cannot apply to the earthly Temple.

There were dwelling places for the priests who serve at the temple.

And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD. {began...: Heb. built}
2 And the house which king Solomon built for the LORD, the length thereof was threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof twenty cubits, and the height thereof thirty cubits.
3 And the porch before the temple of the house, twenty cubits was the length thereof, according to the breadth of the house; and ten cubits was the breadth thereof before the house.
4 And for the house he made windows of narrow lights. {of...: or, broad within, and narrow without: or, skewed and closed}
5 And against the wall of the house he built chambers round about, against the walls of the house round about, both of the temple and of the oracle: and he made chambers round about: {against the wall: or, upon, or, joining to the wall} {built chambers: Heb. built floors} {made chambers: Heb. made ribs}
6 The nethermost chamber was five cubits broad, and the middle was six cubits broad, and the third was seven cubits broad: for without in the wall of the house he made narrowed rests round about, that the beams should not be fastened in the walls of the house. {narrowed...: Heb. narrowings, or, rebatements}
7 And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither: so that there was neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was in building.
8 The door for the middle chamber was in the right side of the house: and they went up with winding stairs into the middle chamber, and out of the middle into the third. {side: Heb. shoulder}
9 So he built the house, and finished it; and covered the house with beams and boards of cedar. {with...: or, the vaultbeams and the panellings with cedar}
10 And then he built chambers against all the house, five cubits high: and they rested on the house with timber of cedar. (1Ki 6:1-10 KJV)

39 For the children of Israel and the children of Levi shall bring the offering of the corn, of the new wine, and the oil, unto the chambers, where are the vessels of the sanctuary, and the priests that minister, and the porters, and the singers: and we will not forsake the house of our God. (Neh 10:39 KJV)

13 Then said he unto me, The north chambers and the south chambers, which are before the separate place, they be holy chambers, where the priests that approach unto the LORD shall eat the most holy things: there shall they lay the most holy things, and the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; for the place is holy.
14 When the priests enter therein, then shall they not go out of the holy place into the utter court, but there they shall lay their garments wherein they minister; for they are holy; and shall put on other garments, and shall approach to those things which are for the people. (Eze 42:13-14 KJV)

19 After he brought me through the entry, which was at the side of the gate, into the holy chambers of the priests, which looked toward the north: and, behold, there was a place on the two sides westward. (Eze 46:19 KJV)

The priests served in courses for 8 days. Having traveled to Jerusalem to serve their course they needed a place to stay for 8 days, thus the rooms in the temple. Consider Jesus' words in John 14.

KJV John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (Joh 14:1-3 KJV)

The Greek word that is translated "mansions" in the KJV simply means a dwelling place. We see that in Solomon's temple there were many dwelling chambers. There are also cambers in the vision that Ezekiel sees of the future temple.

44 And without the inner gate were the chambers of the singers in the inner court, which was at the side of the north gate; and their prospect was toward the south: one at the side of the east gate having the prospect toward the north. (Eze 40:44 KJV)

And there are chambers in Jesus' Father's house, no doubt these are the temple.


7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. (Isa 56:7 KJV)

11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD. (Jer 23:11 KJV)

I doubt there is wickedness in Heaven. It seems more likely that this is the temple where the prophet and pries would be

7 In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations. (Eze 44:7 KJV)

16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem. (Zec 1:16 KJV)

7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by. (Zec 3:7 KJV)
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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#78
Of course only believers aka the elect may go to heaven but my point was the elect is not fully chosen yet, so long as we are alive on earth and armaggedon doesnt happen and end there is another soul we can save and thus another elect to bring into his kingdom
No one goes to heaven...

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

If one were to go to heaven, it might be a little lonely seeing as how Christ comes to the earth and so does the Father.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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#79


So then you read the verse where Paul begins to address the Jewish believers at Rome? The letter of Romans was written to the entire church, however, in the letter Paul addresses the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers respectively. At chapter 2 verse 17 Paul turns his attention to the Jewish believers.

Yes, but Romans does not focus on Jews from that point through Romans 11. I have already exploded that theory.

Note that Even in Romans 2, the attention turns from Jews to both Jews & Gentiles. And I have already gone through Romans 8 in detail, showing it is not just to Jews.

No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. . . .


19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. . . .

for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
. . . 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

. . . 18
Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations,. . .


23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

It is pure absurdity to maintain a focus only on Jews into Romans 11. And your repeating it, does not establish the absurdity.




Judas was chosen among the twelve, so whatever you want to say the twelve were chosen for he was one of them. Whatever Peter and John were chosen for Judas was also. So, you have to say that the choosing wasn't for salvation or that Judas was chosen for salvation and lost. You can't have it both ways.
The choosing to be an apostle is something different from choosing for salvation. You cannot have both of those ways for Judas. The choosing for salvation, election, happened before creation (Ephesians 2). But 11 of the apostles were obviously chosen not just for Apostle, but also for salvation. You cannot combine the two as if to say that everyone chosen for salvation was also chosen to be an apostle. You can have one without the other.

It's not the least bit absurd when Jesus Himself called the temple, "My Father's house."
Yes, making "my Father's House," oikia not oikos, the earthly temple in John 14 is absurd in context.

And BTW, the temple on earth is NEVER CALLED THE OIKIA of the Father -- unless I missed it somewhere. Let's see you quote one instance where the earthly temple is called the OIKIA of the Father or My Father's oikia.

In John 14 the word is not oikos, but oikia. Different Greek word.

John 2: " 6 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my
Father’s house
[oikos, accusative form, oikon]
an house of merchandise."
μὴ ποιεῖτε τὸν οἶκον τοῦ πατρός μου οἶκον ἐμπορίου.

2 In my Father’s house [oikia] are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ τοῦ πατρός μου μοναὶ πολλαί εἰσιν·

However, just because there is a temple in Heaven doesn't mean Christians will go there.
But the point was that there is cause to speak of the House of the Father in Heaven.

According to John one must believe that Jesus is the Christ.
But it is not just believe that . . . , it is believe on, trust in, depend on the Savior. The demons may well believe that Jesus is the Christ of God. If is fine if you believe He is the Christ. But He is also YHWH (Romans 10:13), and you must confess (agree with God) that He is YHWH and trust the real Lord Jesus to be saved.

The confidence of the Christian is more tied to a person than to a place. Our citizenship is in Heaven; our Savior is in Heaven. Our destiny is to be with Him (I am with you always). Wherever He is to be, there will also His Body be, the Church.
 
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Dec 12, 2013
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The word elect and saint both apply unto every man, woman and child which are truly born again (saved) and are used in the following manner...

1. Saint is descriptive of our standing in Christ as one who has been made holy in the eyes of God
2. Elect is descriptive of our position in Christ and is indicative of having been CHOSEN in Christ