Scriptures Cannot be alone... Scripture is clear

[Jackson123]

Actually, no we don't say Peter was in Rome in 32 AD. Most Catholic scholars believe Peter arrived in Rome probably around 62-65 AD.

Brother Thomist,

This is from catholic encyclopedia.

If Peter there in 62 than he is not first Pope in Rome, Paul first arrival is 60 ad.

1. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: List of Popes - New Advent
   
   www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm
   
   
   
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   A complete list of every single pope in the last 2000 years, in chronological order. Links to a biographical essay on each.‎St. Peter - ‎Pope St. Linus - ‎Antipope - ‎Alexander VI
   

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Home > Catholic Encyclopedia > P > The List of Popes​

The List of Popes

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See also POPE, PAPAL ELECTIONS, ELECTION OF THE POPE.

1. St. Peter (32-67)
2. St. Linus (67-76)
3. St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
4. St. Clement I (88-97)
5. St. Evaristus (97-105)
6. St. Alexander I (105-115)
7. St. Sixtus I (115-125) Also called Xystus I
8. St. Telesphorus (125-136)

 

[tribesman]

Obviously, I thoroughly disagree with your final statement. However, Scripture First is a correct use, but Scripture alone without divine authority guiding all Christians (which by the way is the Church/Body of Christ) leads into heresy. It also leads to 33,000+ denominations and growing. Most of which would claim the founders of the Protest as heretics.

Mormons reason in a similar way. They claim to be "the one true church on the face of the earth". How can we know they are wrong? Testing their fantastic claims with scripture? The reformation was not about starting a new church, it was to reform the Church back to the right path of old, back to the efficiency of scripture.

 

[SolidGround]

I think most Catholics would agree that the Reformation cleaned up some heresies.
Do you still purchase "indulgences"?
The Catholic Church has rejected many of it's past errors.

Many Protestants are in the same boat, just dealing with different heresies altogether.
Christ desired for us to agree in the Lord. Spirit guide us.

 

[ThomistColin]

That was a little confusing..."not as the only thing." / "the only thing."
Explain please.

Scripture is the standard in order to test "the spirits" or "new doctrine" against. However, that does not mean there will not be new doctrine, only that it should be tested. That doesn't mean there should not be tradition, but that the tradition must be tested.

However, Sola Scriptura means to continually retest and retest all doctrine without ever moving forward to the point that any two Christians who disagree on interpretation (in which both can be wrong) ends in splitting them into separate groups. Further and further the cycle goes until you have 33000+ denominations and counting.

There must be a keeper of the "upright" or "already tested" doctrine. One that can be trusted, and that at certain times, all doctrine is retested, not in every generation, but over time. This keeps the Church whole, so as to remove the heresies without spawning so many that they cannot be contained.

Now, personally, I believe that keeper to be the Catholic Church. Not the Pope, not the Cardinals, but the Church as it has stood down through the ages. The Councils are called to test the new and retest the old and to declare their findings. This has been done since the First Council in Jerusalem was called, and recently happened in the 60s. Now, that's my personal opinion on who that Keeper of Upright Doctrine is, but honestly, I see no other sect in the world doing this. I just see them splitting smaller and smaller, more and more divided.

 

[ThomistColin]

Mormons reason in a similar way. They claim to be "the one true church on the face of the earth". How can we know they are wrong? Testing their fantastic claims with scripture? The reformation was not about starting a new church, it was to reform the Church back to the right path of old, back to the efficiency of scripture.

Except the Mormons can trace their history back to the 1800s. The Roman Catholic Church can trace back its oldest doctrines to the first and second centuries.

 

[Jackson123]

Obviously, I thoroughly disagree with your final statement. However, Scripture First is a correct use, but Scripture alone without divine authority guiding all Christians (which by the way is the Church/Body of Christ) leads into heresy. It also leads to 33,000+ denominations and growing. Most of which would claim the founders of the Protest as heretics.

And catholic that is the only true church Kill countless people.

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[ThomistColin]

1. St. Peter (32-67)

Jackson, that 32 AD is speaking of "Thou art Cephus and on this Cephus I will build my Church." Not when Peter went to Rome.

 

[ThomistColin]

And catholic that is the only true church Kill countless people.

That's ignorant. The Orthodox slaughtered the Armenians and the Coptics. Protestants ordered the death of thousands of Catholics (AND each other). Protestants slaughtered Native Americans up and down the Eastern seaboard of the United States. You don't see me screaming bloody murder about killing of saints committed during and after the Protest by the protesters.

 

[Jackson123]

I think most Catholics would agree that the Reformation cleaned up some heresies.
Do you still purchase "indulgences"?
The Catholic Church has rejected many of it's past errors.

Many Protestants are in the same boat, just dealing with different heresies altogether.
Christ desired for us to agree in the Lord. Spirit guide us.

I don't know if this isn't heresy.

This is what indonesian catholic pray to Mary in the wedding ceremony.

sacrament of marriage
Choice rites and prayers and readings for each award the sacrament of marriage ceremony
FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 03, 2006
Prayer to Mary
PRAYER BEFORE THE MOTHER MARY BRIDE


Bride, accompanied by witnesses and the priest, came to the front of the statue of Mother Mary. The groom helps the bride put flowers so that the altar of Mary became more beautiful to look at, and the groom take the candle - prepared for the bride to turn it on. Then kneel together - make the sign of the cross and delivered the following prayer: (in conjunction with the choir singing the SONG MARIA).




Option 1:


Bride both:


Virgin Mary, Mother of good, you have know the two of us in each of our meetings. Even this day you know our love inauguration. Look Mom, we're both facing you. If now thou helped intertwining silk thread between me and him, so that the fire of love that exists in our lives and would not wilt smoldering . I believe that he is a gift you gave to me, while I was a gift you gave to him. Hopefully, mutual trust and mutual understanding grows in the hearts of both of us. Finally, O Mother, be with us and Stand by us in every step of our family coaching. Amen.

 

[tribesman]

Except the Mormons can trace their history back to the 1800s. The Roman Catholic Church can trace back its oldest doctrines to the first and second centuries.

So we can know that the mormons are wrong because they can only trace their history to the 1800s while we can know that the RCs are right because they can trace their history to the first and second centuries? Anyone can teach and practice just about anything only he can "trace his history" far enough back? Sounds like an abuse of the term apostolic succession. One thing that Luther protested, for good. An error or heresy is to be believed just because it has been spread around long enough. Wow.

 

[Jackson123]

That's ignorant. The Orthodox slaughtered the Armenians and the Coptics. Protestants ordered the death of thousands of Catholics (AND each other). Protestants slaughtered Native Americans up and down the Eastern seaboard of the United States. You don't see me screaming bloody murder about killing of saints committed during and after the Protest by the protesters.

That is bad, but they not claim the only true church lead by apostle successor.

 

[ThomistColin]

I don't know if this isn't heresy.

This is what indonesian catholic pray to Mary in the wedding ceremony.

sacrament of marriage
Choice rites and prayers and readings for each award the sacrament of marriage ceremony
FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 03, 2006
Prayer to Mary
PRAYER BEFORE THE MOTHER MARY BRIDE


Bride, accompanied by witnesses and the priest, came to the front of the statue of Mother Mary. The groom helps the bride put flowers so that the altar of Mary became more beautiful to look at, and the groom take the candle - prepared for the bride to turn it on. Then kneel together - make the sign of the cross and delivered the following prayer: (in conjunction with the choir singing the SONG MARIA).




Option 1:


Bride both:


Virgin Mary, Mother of good, you have know the two of us in each of our meetings. Even this day you know our love inauguration. Look Mom, we're both facing you. If now thou helped intertwining silk thread between me and him, so that the fire of love that exists in our lives and would not wilt smoldering . I believe that he is a gift you gave to me, while I was a gift you gave to him. Hopefully, mutual trust and mutual understanding grows in the hearts of both of us. Finally, O Mother, be with us and Stand by us in every step of our family coaching. Amen.

That is A thing done in ONE country. Remember what Pope Francis said, "There are good Catholics who go to Mass, say the Rosary, and yet they know not Christ." The same is true of Protestants, who go weekly to Church, tithe, work in the street ministry, and yet they know not Christ. Funny that is the same for BOTH OF US!

 

[Zmouth]

Popes do not equal people the quality of Peter and Paul.

Not even close.

So which is the greater evil, to lie for God or against God?

69 Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee.
70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.
71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.
72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.
Matt 26:69-72

What would you have said if you were Peter?

 

[ThomistColin]

So we can know that the mormons are wrong because they can only trace their history to the 1800s while we can know that the RCs are right because they can trace their history to the first and second centuries? Anyone can teach and practice just about anything only he can "trace his history" far enough back? Sounds like an abuse of the term apostolic succession. One thing that Luther protested, for good. An error or heresy is to be believed just because it has been spread around long enough. Wow.

And yet Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and John Hus believed in the Immaculate Conception of Mary and that Mary was a sinless and perpetual virgin and that she is the Mother of God, AND that she is the Queen of Heaven. Hence my point, even modern Protestants would proclaim the founders of the Protest heretics. So tell me, between 90 AD (around the time of St. John's death) and the modern Protestant world...where were the Christians? And when was the Church finally reformed to the point that taught correct doctrine?

 

[Jackson123]

[/FONT][/COLOR]
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[/INDENT][/FONT][/COLOR]Jackson, that 32 AD is speaking of "Thou art Cephus and on this Cephus I will build my Church." Not when Peter went to Rome.

so in the year 44 Peter still in Jerusalem is that right?

To my knowledge, James is the Bishop in Jerusalem where Peter reside till AD 44.

What is Peter status then?

 

[tribesman]

And yet Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and John Hus believed in the Immaculate Conception of Mary and that Mary was a sinless and perpetual virgin and that she is the Mother of God, AND that she is the Queen of Heaven. Hence my point, even modern Protestants would proclaim the founders of the Protest heretics. So tell me, between 90 AD (around the time of St. John's death) and the modern Protestant world...where were the Christians? And when was the Church finally reformed to the point that taught correct doctrine?

Maybe you still fail to understand that the protestant reformation was not about starting a new church. It was all about reforming Christ's Church. Where the early protestants gathered, among their ranks was almost entirely made up of former roman catholics. The protestant never claimed that there where no christians between AD 90 and the time of reformation. Nonsense! Such extreme claims are very rare, even among radical fringe groups. Lutherans and reformed may differ in the way they see the reformation as being completed or not. But very seldom do they condemn each other as heretics to the point of denying they are christians. Maybe you need to do some research on this.

 

[ThomistColin]

so in the year 44 Peter still in Jerusalem is that right?

To my knowledge, James is the Bishop in Jerusalem where Peter reside till AD 44.

What is Peter status then?

He was Pope. He was Pope first, then the Bishop of Rome. That's why the Pope is the Bishop of Rome. If you actually study Catholic scholarly work or study Catholic tradition, you'd learn that Paul was the first Bishop of Rome. Peter was the first Pope.

 

[Jackson123]

That is A thing done in ONE country. Remember what Pope Francis said, "There are good Catholics who go to Mass, say the Rosary, and yet they know not Christ." The same is true of Protestants, who go weekly to Church, tithe, work in the street ministry, and yet they know not Christ. Funny that is the same for BOTH OF US!

Bride, accompanied by witnesses and the priest, came to the front of the statue of Mother Mary. The groom helps the bride put flowers so that the altar of Mary became more beautiful to look at, and the groom take the candle - prepared for the bride to turn it on. Then kneel together - make the sign of the cross and delivered the following prayer: (in conjunction with the choir singing the SONG MARIA).

Priest involve. How many years is catholic priest go to seminary? This is very basic. Not to pray to other than God.

 

[ThomistColin]

Maybe you still fail to understand that the protestant reformation was not about starting a new church. It was all about reforming Christ's Church. Where the early protestants gathered, among their ranks was almost entirely made up of former roman catholics. The protestant never claimed that there where no christians between AD 90 and the time of reformation. Nonsense! Such extreme claims are very rare, even among radical fringe groups. Lutherans and reformed may differ in the way they see the reformation as being completed or not. But very seldom do they condemn each other as heretics to the point of denying they are christians. Maybe you need to do some research on this.

And yet most on this website, including the moderators teach that I am not a Christian because I am a Catholic. So...there is the problem.

 

[crossnote]

Scripture is the standard in order to test "the spirits" or "new doctrine" against. However, that does not mean there will not be new doctrine, only that it should be tested. That doesn't mean there should not be tradition, but that the tradition must be tested.

However, Sola Scriptura means to continually retest and retest all doctrine without ever moving forward to the point that any two Christians who disagree on interpretation (in which both can be wrong) ends in splitting them into separate groups. Further and further the cycle goes until you have 33000+ denominations and counting.

There must be a keeper of the "upright" or "already tested" doctrine. One that can be trusted, and that at certain times, all doctrine is retested, not in every generation, but over time. This keeps the Church whole, so as to remove the heresies without spawning so many that they cannot be contained.

Now, personally, I believe that keeper to be the Catholic Church. Not the Pope, not the Cardinals, but the Church as it has stood down through the ages. The Councils are called to test the new and retest the old and to declare their findings. This has been done since the First Council in Jerusalem was called, and recently happened in the 60s. Now, that's my personal opinion on who that Keeper of Upright Doctrine is, but honestly, I see no other sect in the world doing this. I just see them splitting smaller and smaller, more and more divided.

If there is new revelation it would come by...

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles (utterances)of God.
(Rom 3:1-2)

not Rome.