Scriptures Cannot be alone... Scripture is clear

[Kingdom_Mystic]

Guess what it does not matter what your tradition you belong to your belief what is the true right interpretation of the Word is based on your traditions prophet. The Pope, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Finney, the Patriarch, Spurgeon, Knox, Wigglesworth, Moody, Roberts, Jakes, ect ect. the list goes on forever with everyone believing that they are right. No tradition can truly say everything they believe completely based on Scripture alone. No where in the Bible did it say the gifts of the Spirit ceased. Well we believe that because interpret this passage as meaning that they are no longer needed. That is based on tradition not Scripture. We do not immerse people to Baptize them any more is that based on Scripture?? Many churches do not function under the system of Bishops is that in Scripture too??? The truth of the matter none of us is perfect and neither are our traditions; therefore, instead of going over all our faults and who killed who we should not seek to bring each other down but find the common ground we do stand on in Christ. We must all repent of this senseless bickering pray for God for the body to work together to accomplish the work of the kingdom. Unfortunately, I will probably be attacked for trying to appeal to the reason of others, but I hope for the best.

 

[ThomistColin]

He was Pope. He was Pope first, then the Bishop of Rome. That's why the Pope is the Bishop of Rome. If you actually study Catholic scholarly work or study Catholic tradition, you'd learn that Paul was the first Bishop of Rome. Peter was the first Pope.

To make myself clear here.

The College of Cardinals do not elect the Bishop of Rome, they elect the Pope. The Pope is the Bishop of Rome because Peter was the Bishop of Rome. So, think in this case, if you are the Pope, you are the Bishop of Rome, but just because you are the Bishop of Rome, does not necessitate that you are the Pope (point again being that Paul was the first Bishop of Rome.)

 

[tribesman]

And yet most on this website, including the moderators teach that I am not a Christian because I am a Catholic. So...there is the problem.

The question then is, are they protestants?

 

[Jackson123]

He was Pope. He was Pope first, then the Bishop of Rome. That's why the Pope is the Bishop of Rome. If you actually study Catholic scholarly work or study Catholic tradition, you'd learn that Paul was the first Bishop of Rome. Peter was the first Pope.

Second Pope is Linus ad 67-76

John is still alive that years and He is apostle. If require apostle to be Pope, why not apostle John, He is more apostle than Linus, and more senior and more close to the Lord.

 

[ThomistColin]

If there is new revelation it would come by...

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles (utterances)of God.
(Rom 3:1-2)

not Rome.

And you accuse us of prooftexting and twisting Scripture?

 

[ThomistColin]

Second Pope is Linus ad 67-76

John is still alive that years and He is apostle. If require apostle to be Pope, why not apostle John, He is more apostle than Linus, and more senior and more close to the Lord.

Ah...but Pope did not require you to be an Apostle, it required you be the successor of Peter, which was Linus and then Clement. Jesus chose Peter to be His viceroy, not John.

 

[ThomistColin]

The question then is, are they protestants?

Yes and that is why they are considered "anathema" a doctrinal word meaning "not in full communion with the Catholic Church." If you want a citation of that, read the Papal Encyclical that speaks on the Greek Orthodox Church as "brothers and sisters in Christ, yet anathema to the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church."

 

[Jackson123]

Ah...but Pope did not require you to be an Apostle, it required you be the successor of Peter, which was Linus and then Clement. Jesus chose Peter to be His viceroy, not John.

What is viceroy mean?

 

[ThomistColin]

What is viceroy mean?

"Beside the King" or "Beneath the King" depending on your latin entymology, in essence it describes one as the "Herald" or "Chief Servant."

A modern understanding would be "Prime Minister."

 

[tribesman]

Yes and that is why they are considered "anathema" a doctrinal word meaning "not in full communion with the Catholic Church." If you want a citation of that, read the Papal Encyclical that speaks on the Greek Orthodox Church as "brothers and sisters in Christ, yet anathema to the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church."

The way I see it, protestants proper are those who are in the tradition of the reformers. As for many of these evangelical groups, baptists, pentecostals etc...even methodists, they are not really genuine protestant. While some of these groups may have such origins, or have some things in common with protestants, many have not and many of them are more on the side of Rome when it comes to the issue of justification. So its a mixed bag.

 

[Kingdom_Mystic]

John 17:9-25New King James Version (NKJV)

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me,[a] that they may be one as We are.12 While I was with them in the world,[b] I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept;[c] and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
Jesus Prays for All Believers

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will[d] believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.

Just wondering how we are to interpret how to fulfill this Scripture . These are not my Words, but I am in agreement with my Lord's prayer. Are you?? Think about it!!

 

[Jackson123]

"Beside the King" or "Beneath the King" depending on your latin entymology, in essence it describes one as the "Herald" or "Chief Servant."

A modern understanding would be "Prime Minister."

Thank brother,

Now Pope represent Jesus. is that Right.

Is viceroy and Pope have different meaning ?

 

[ChristIsGod]

[/FONT][/COLOR]
[/LIST]
[/INDENT][/FONT][/COLOR]Jackson, that 32 AD is speaking of "Thou art Cephus and on this Cephus I will build my Church." Not when Peter went to Rome.

This is living proof why we need to stay with the Scriptures alone and in the language in which it was written.
You've misquoted Christ here.


Mat 16:16 AndG1161 SimonG4613 PeterG4074 answeredG611 and said,G2036 ThouG4771 artG1488 theG3588 Christ,G5547 theG3588 SonG5207 of the livingG2198 God.G2316
Mat 16:17 AndG2532 JesusG2424 answeredG611 and saidG2036 unto him,G846 BlessedG3107 artG1488 thou, SimonG4613 Barjona:G920 forG3754 fleshG4561 andG2532 bloodG129 hath notG3756 revealedG601 it unto thee,G4671 butG235 myG3450 FatherG3962 whichG3588 is inG1722 heaven.G3772
Mat 16:18 AndG1161 I say alsoG2504 G3004 unto thee,G4671 ThatG3754 thouG4771 artG1488 Peter,G4074 andG2532 uponG1909 thisG5026 rockG4073 I will buildG3618 myG3450 church;G1577 andG2532 the gatesG4439 of hellG86 shall notG3756 prevail againstG2729 it.G846



Petros is 'masculine' and Petra is feminine, which of course, Peter was not both.

Secondly, Petros is a piece of a rock and Petra is a mass of rock.

It was the Truth & revelation that Peter was given by The Holy Spirit in verse 16 that Christ was referring to as What He would build His Church upon.

We translate from the Greek that the N.T. was written in - not any other language.

So one would ask - then why did Christ use a feminine "rock" to build His Church upon.

Again the 'Truth' & 'revelation that Peter was given and spoke is what the Church is built upon [that Jesus was the Christ, The Son of the Living God] and the word for 'Truth' and 'revelation' are both feminine - Aletheia=Truth --- Apokalupsis=revelation.

So Christ was saying that - Peter was a piece of the rock and upon the Rock which is the revelation of Truth that was given to him - that Jesus is The Christ & Son of GOD - the Church would be built upon that Truth.

Peter is not "the Rock" - the Church is not "the Rock" - and if you find every cross-reference from the Old Testament to the New - only Christ is "The Rock".

God forbid that we should call Any man or group of fallible humans, "The Rock".

Deut 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all His ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is He.

1Corth 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

 

[Dogknox]

Yeah that ONE church also looked the other way for decades at pedo priests.
Sorry not gonna put much faith in that ONE CHURCH.

I hope all is well...

Scriptures tell you... The CHURCH is the body of Jesus!
1still_waters I am very sure you are without any sins and don't need saving... BUT...

Jesus came to save sinners NOT you, you have NO SINS!!!!!
1still_waters His church is jam packed to the rafters with sinners YET...
Yet his church is holy; Holy because Jesus is Holy!
Universal because Jesus is Catholic.
One Church because there is One Body, one God! (I will build my Church >singular< the gates of hell WILL NOT prevail against my Church)
Apostolic: Because the One Church Jesus' established has roots that go all the way back to the Apostles!

Put your faith in the words of "The Word"!
1still_waters Rejecting the scriptures IS rejecting Jesus.. LOOK...
John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

DO YOU SEE IT???!
1still_waters You CONDEMN YOURSELF!!!!

 

[crossnote]

And you accuse us of prooftexting and twisting Scripture?

God has entrusted the oracles of Scriptures to believing Jews (Rom 3:2) not Rome. No twist, Rome has tried to usurp that status, that's at the core of Sola Scriptura.

 

[crossnote]

I think most Catholics would agree that the Reformation cleaned up some heresies.
Do you still purchase "indulgences"?
The Catholic Church has rejected many of it's past errors.

Many Protestants are in the same boat, just dealing with different heresies altogether.
Christ desired for us to agree in the Lord. Spirit guide us.

So Rome is fallible, it makes wrong doctrines and claims to be the One True Church? Protestants do not make such claims....unless they are a cult.

 

[JesusIsAll]

God has entrusted the oracles of Scriptures to believing Jews (Rom 3:2) not Rome. No twist, Rome has tried to usurp that status, that's at the core of Sola Scriptura.

In the New Testament, we have the faith our Lord Jesus and His apostles established, the whole gospel which is sufficient to save and to sanctify a believer, the entire New Testament even more than is needed (people in earlier times didn't even have whole Bibles). It has never seemed even wise to stray from reliable scripture to, what, an adulterated gospel, of the construction of corrupt "traditions" of men, added later? Who would even claim the scripture left by our Lord and His apostles is not sufficient to save, when the apostles established many churches?

Scripture plus cult inventions? No thanks!

 

[Dogknox]

Let's see!

The Bible was completely inspired by God. Paul wrote a good portion of the New Testament under the inspiration of God.

The canon was closed by the 4th century AD. That means that anything written after that date is not inspired. (Of course there were strong reasons why the books of the Bible were included, but that is another thread!)

So why would you use the Bible to prove that we need more than just the Bible? The Bible was the last word from God.

That doesn't mean we can't learn from preachers and teachers, but that we need to be discerning, and know the Word of God ourselves to understand whether we are being fed bad doctrine or dogma.

As far as radical non-Biblical pronouncements, like the assumption of Mary, for example, I cannot understand how anyone can believe such nonsense, based on the pronouncement of a weak and fallible man. That is just blind naivety at best, and believing lies at worst.

Good to meet you.... You are mixed up!!!

The canon was closed by the AUTHORITY of the Catholic Church NO OTHER!
Angela53510 You reject the Catholic Church!! Then HOW..
How can you trust the Catholic Church got it right when she tells you, your bible is inspired..? How do you know she did not get it wrong!!??
Angela53510 You might as well toss your bible out your stinking window if you reject the authority of the Catholic Church.
Fact is; There were hundreds of manuscripts kicking around that were NOT inspired... People did not know what to believe. The Catholic Church "GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT" sorted them all out. She decide the INSPIRED manuscripts from the UN-inspired ones then she put all of the truly inspired manuscripts into one book she named "The Bible"!
Angela53510 Your bible did not fall out of the sky with a cover on it!

FACT the first bible the Catholic Church made had 73 books, the first bible printed "The Gutenberg bible" had 73 books", the first King James bible had 73 books. Martin Luther's bible had 73 books!
Catholic Church did not ADD books to the bible >Gods Holy Words< You guys took books out! Your bible has only 66 books because Protestants took books out of the bible seventeen hundred years after Jesus!!!!!!
You trust they got it right in taking books out !!!?? You can't trust men, they are NOT guided by the Holy Spirit!!!!!!

THINK: If God guided the Holy Catholic Church in deciding the inspired manuscripts from the phony one DON'T..
Don't you think God would not also stick around and help his one Church INTERPRET the same holy words???!

Angela53510 You reject the assumption???
Scriptures... "From NOW ON all GENERATIONS will call me blessed"! Luke 1:48

THINK....1) "From NOW ON" meaning from the moment the words left Mary's mouth, up to today!!
The CHURCH HAS ALWAYS honored Mary as blessed!! Not you or your many thousands of churches they were not around when Mary spoke her prophesy: proving You are NOT part of the "From Now On" Mary is NOT your mother simply because you are NOT in her family!!
2) "All GENERATIONS"; To be in a generation you MUST be in the family!
Angela53510 You are NOT part of Mary's ancestry, you cannot be, thus you are NOT in the body of Jesus.
Mary cannot be your Mother, so Jesus cannot be your brother!
Jesus cannot be your brother because; Mary cannot be your mother!
You are Not in the GENERATIONAL family tree of Mary. Your body was formed by a man at least seventeen hundred years AFTER Jesus formed his ONE Church! Mary cannot be your mother>> Jesus cannot be your brother so>>> God cannot be your father!

You reject the assumption. You reject scriptures... The scriptures are pointing to Mary!!!
19Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

Mary is in heaven God tells you so!! His Holy Authoritative Church tells you so!!

Ephesians 3:10
His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms

Angela53510 THROUGH THE CHURCH You are forced to reject the scriptures to say what you do!! Ephesians 3:21
to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever!

 

[crossnote]

The Catholic Church at the time of the Canon was much more than the Roman Catholic Church. That happened before the Great Schism. The name Roman Catholic is an oxymoron, it is not catholic (universal) but a defanged State religio whose kingdom is here on earth.

 

[Rachel20]

Acts 17:11
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Clearly the Bereans did NOT believe in the scriptures ALONE!!!
They listened to Paul >>AND<< they checked their "Old Testament scriptures"!
Paul was TEACHING "Christ Resurrected"! Christ Resurrected is NOT found in the "Old Testament"!

**The Bereans NEEDED Paul and his TEACHING to find truth, they NEEDED Church to arrive at truth!

The LESS...
The Less Noble people of Thessalonica; Believed in the Scriptures ALONE!!! They refused to listen to Church, the teaching of Paul!! BUT.....

But they have an excuse when they stand in front of Jesus at judgement... They can say: "We did not know we were to listen to Church; We do not have written in our Old Testament "'Listen to the Church'"!

The person living today has NO excuse for not listening to the Church they are "NOT NOBLE!!!"
We today have the "New Testament" our scriptures say; "Listen to the Church or be treated as pagan"!

Pagan: A person outside of God' body!
All who believe in "Scriptures ALONE" must reject the scriptures to believe this man made TRADITION!

Actually the sad thing in all this is your argument where the conclusion doesn't even follow the premise.

Not to mention the sad way you highlight everyone's chatname in blue. If you respond to my post, would you please highlight my name in pink?

I don't like the colour blue too much.

Anyway.

So to point out the flaws in your reasons -

The Scripture verse Acts 17:11, actually praises the Bereans as noble because they did not rely solely on Paul's teachings but went home and verified what he said.


Meaning - they did not trust man.

If you read Psalm 118:8, the center verse of the Bible , it says

It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man.

Honestly, how did church even come into the argument? Where did Paul and his teaching equate "church"?

Your premise should have been " Scripture alone is not enough, we need the CATHOLIC church" but you don't really have any solid reasoning to back this up.

Hence you sneak in a little syllogical fallacy and get everybody worked up.


However thousands of years of false teachings and corruption in the churches (and even modern churches now) has shown us more than ever how we need to be like the Bereans.

Read The Word more and trust God before man.