Scriptures Cannot be alone... Scripture is clear

[Jason0047]

Also, why is Mystery Babylon unmistakenly the Roman Catholic Church?

Well, while there are many reasons (according to Scripture), here are seven major ones that should hopefully erase any doubt for you.

#1. Roman Catholic Church is adorned in purple in scarlet (i.e. Cardinals wear scarlet and Archbishops wear purple (Which one can witness a sea of scarlet and purple in outdoor Catholic gatherings)). This is the exact colors of the Harlot, for she is adorned in purple in scarlet (Revelation 17:3-4).

#2. Roman Catholic Church has caused the death of more Christians than any other church could aspire to. Scripture states that the Harlot is drunk with the blood of the saints (Revelation 17:6).

#3. Roman Catholic Church (Rome) sits upon seven hills. The seven heads of the beast on which the woman (the harlot church) is said to sit are said to be representative of seven hills (Revelation 17:9).

#4. Roman Catholic Church which is referred to as a woman is synomous with being a city (i.e. the Vatican) that has great world wide influence (Revelation 17:18).

#5. Roman Catholic Church (Vatican) is a city of great wealth. In fact, if you were to read Revelation 18:9-19, you would see the financial fall of the city known as Babylon. This city was said to have great wealth and the people mourned over it's economic collapse. The previous chapter (Revelation 17) mentioned Mystery Babylon as a false religious world system (i.e. a Harlot), as well. So what religious world institution exists today who has a global wide influence financially in addition to it being known as a religious entity?

#6. Roman Catholic Church worships the "Queen of Heaven" (Mary).
Queen of Heaven - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Harlot calls herself a "Queen" (Revelation 18:7).

#7. Roman Catholic Church participates in the Eucharist or the Mass with a "golden cup." The Harlot drinks from a "golden cup" of abominations (Revelation 17:4).

Therefore, in conclusion:
The seven major clues or points in Scripture clearly tell us that the Harlot is the Roman Catholic Church within Revelation 17-18. If it is not, then it is by far the most strangest fluke or random chance parallel for no reason. However, I do not believe in coincidences. I believe everything happens for a reason by a perfectly sovereign God. Trust in the Word of God alone. Religious men will always lead you astray. Especially when they appear to be so blatantly obvious in wanting to appear religious.

 

[ThomistColin]

Also, why is Mystery Babylon unmistakenly the Roman Catholic Church?

Well, while there are many reasons (according to Scripture), here are seven major ones that should hopefully erase any doubt for you.

#1. Roman Catholic Church is adorned in purple in scarlet (i.e. Cardinals wear scarlet and Archbishops wear purple (Which one can witness a sea of scarlet and purple in outdoor Catholic gatherings)). This is the exact colors of the Harlot, for she is adorned in purple in scarlet (Revelation 17:3-4).

#2. Roman Catholic Church has caused the death of more Christians than any other church could aspire to. Scripture states that the Harlot is drunk with the blood of the saints (Revelation 17:6).

#3. Roman Catholic Church (Rome) sits upon seven hills. The seven heads of the beast on which the woman (the harlot church) is said to sit are said to be representative of seven hills (Revelation 17:9).

#4. Roman Catholic Church which is referred to as a woman is synomous with being a city (i.e. the Vatican) that has great world wide influence (Revelation 17:18).

#5. Roman Catholic Church (Vatican) is a city of great wealth. In fact, if you were to read Revelation 18:9-19, you would see the financial fall of the city known as Babylon. This city was said to have great wealth and the people mourned over it's economic collapse. The previous chapter (Revelation 17) mentioned Mystery Babylon as a false religious world system (i.e. a Harlot), as well. So what religious world institution exists today who has a global wide influence financially in addition to it being known as a religious entity?

#6. Roman Catholic Church worships the "Queen of Heaven" (Mary).
Queen of Heaven - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Harlot calls herself a "Queen" (Revelation 18:7).

#7. Roman Catholic Church participates in the Eucharist or the Mass with a "golden cup." The Harlot drinks from a "golden cup" of abominations (Revelation 17:4).

Therefore, in conclusion:
The seven major clues or points in Scripture clearly tell us that the Harlot is the Roman Catholic Church within Revelation 17-18. If it is not, then it is by far the most strangest fluke or random chance parallel for no reason. However, I do not believe in coincidences. I believe everything happens for a reason by a perfectly sovereign God. Trust in the Word of God alone. Religious men will always lead you astray. Especially when they appear to be so blatantly obvious in wanting to appear religious.

1. Ah, how fortunate for you. Even though, the Anglican Church uses purple and red, as do the Baptists, and the Methodists, etc.

2. Umm....no we haven't. That's simply based on the assumption of the Church not being Christians. So, you are going off an assumption, not fact.

3. The Vatican doesn't sit on the Seven Hills of Rome. While the Vatican hill is a hill, its on the wrong side of the Tiber River. On the East bank of the River is Rome and its seven hills. The Vatican sits on the west bank.

4. Really? That applies to EVERY MAJOR CITY IN THE WORLD.

5. You've been lied to, the Vatican itself is not as wealthy as you think it is, since most of its wealth is not liquid, but in assets. Most of which being property. However, as to the "liquid wealth" of the Church, the majority of it goes to the ministries of the Church.

6. So are you calling Mary the Harlot? Or are you saying we've made her a Harlot? Or are we now to ignore the entirety of history, such as the "Queen of Heaven" having multiple meanings throughout history? Also, you are ignoring Revelation 12 here. Mary is crowned with stars.

 

[kepha]

You mention Peter as bishop of Rome from 42 ad.

when you read act 28 about the arrival of Paul in 60 ad to Rome, where Jew listen to him about Christianity from morning til evening. Do you believe Peter there for 18 years and Jew still not sure about what is christianity?

Your church deceived you brother, You better cross her teaching with the bible.

I reply Jackson123 History proves you wrong!!!

Ignatius of Antioch wrote this in 110 A.D. "Not as Peter and Paul did, do I command you [Romans]. They were apostles, and I am a convict" (Letter to the Romans 4:3 [A.D. 110]).
Dionysius of Corinth wrote this in 170 A.D.
"You [Pope Soter] have also, by your very admonition, brought together the planting that was made by Peter and Paul at Rome and at Corinth; for both of them alike planted in our Corinth and taught us; and both alike, teaching similarly in Italy, suffered martyrdom at the same time" (Letter to Pope Soter [A.D. 170], in Eusebius, History of the Church 2:25:8).


Irenaeus wrote this in 189 A.D.
"Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church" (Against Heresies, 3, 1:1 [A.D. 189]).

Protestants (or whatever they want to call themselves) often dismiss the writings of 1st and 2nd generation Christians because none of them were Protestant.

First, it is just silly to suggest that there were Bibles before the printing press (As if that is what I believe and or most Christians believe). The truth is that nobody believes that. Second, if there is one organization that is the most Anti-Christian or unbiblical, it is the RCC (Roman Catholic Church). Did you ever watch the Ten Commandments the movie starring Charleston Heston and or read the part in the Bible about the 2nd Commandment about idolatry? Catholics try and take that out of their Bibles. Did not Jesus warn of us religious men who like to appear outwardly religious with flowing robes, etc.? Where in the world did any of the apostles pray to dead saints and or revere Mary as if she wasn't a sinner? Jesus warned against putting your treasure here upon this Earth and not in Heaven. The RCC flaunts it's wealth (While that money could go to the poor).

The Bible according to Hollywood. Yea, I saw it. You must be a Seventh Day Adventist. We didn't change the Ten Commandments.
Catholic sources of our defense to the baseless charges of Catholics changing the Ten Commandments…

1. Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) appeared on the scene in 1992.
   It lists the Ten Commandments as they were before Christ.
2. NJB…first appeared on the scene in 1985. The NJB supports the CCC.
3. NAB…first appeared on the scene in 1970. The NAB supports the CCC.
4. JB……first appeared on the scene in 1966. The JB supports the CCC.
5. RSV-CE…first appeared on the scene in 1965. The RSV-CE supports the CCC.
6. NCE…first appeared on the scene in 1954. The NCE supports the CCC.
7. CE…first appeared on the scene in 1948. The CE (Confraternity Edition) supports the CCC.
8. Challoner-Rheims…first appeared on the scene in 1749. The Challoner-Rheims supports the CCC.
9. Douay-Rheims…first appeared on the scene in 1592-1609. The Douay-Rheims supports the CCC.
   Note that the date for this Bible predates any Protestant Bible by at least 2 years.
10. The Latin Vulgate…first appeared on the scene in 404. The Latin Vulgate supports the CCC.
    Note that the date for this Bible predates any Protestant Bible by over 1200 years.
11. The Septuagint…first appeared on the scene about 148 B.C. This is the Bible that was used by the Apostles.
    The Septuagint supports the CCC. Note that the date for this Bible predates any Protestant Bible by over 1700 years.

Now it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to prove that the Ten Commandments could not possibly have been changed by the Catholic Church which did not even exist for almost 200 years after the Septuagint was written. Add to that the fact that ALL Catholic Bibles, ALL the way back to 148 B.C., are in agreement, and yet Protestant Bibles which did not even appear on the scene until 1611, list the commandments in the ‘different’ order.
So…WHO really did change the Ten Commandments? source

Please, if you are going to make charges against the Catholic Church, then do it with real evidence (if you can find any) and not by personal opinions.

That's just one response to your four-fold cluster bomb, and I don't reply to such tactics. But I will say one more thing. Liturgical vestments were used by the Jews. Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14 - priests wear special vestments in heaven. Our priests also wear special vestments in celebrating the Holy Mass on earth. source

The principal purpose of liturgy is the glorification of God. The liturgical vestments must also contribute to the glory of God. Our internal acts must find expression in our outward appearance, for man is not only spirit, but also flesh. Acts of adoration and reverence, which proceed directly from the soul, are expressed by acts of the body, such as genuflecting and inclinations. Likewise, the garments worn by clerics in presenting themselves before God to give Him public honor are an outward expression of their feeling of reverence in the presence of God. In this respect they are no less a means of glorifying God than the bending of the knee and similar acts of respect.

Try not to get upset if your pastor wears a $500 suit to church.

If you remember, the context was the worship of Jesus and not the amassing of great wealth (or putting your treasure here upon this Earth). How exactly is the RCC worshiping God in their holding onto great wealth? Just read 1 Timothy 6. In other words, it's not the same thing and you know it. Nowhere do we see any of the practices of the RCC in the Bible. But then again, that is why you need to have some made up church authority and or doctrines in addition to God's Holy Word. In fact, just look at their pagan fish hats (that you can look up in pagan religions of the past). Just look at the upside down crosses (Yes, I am aware of the false cover story). The RCC has a bad reputation for abusing children, etc. The line of popes is anything but pretty. Immorality in it's highest forms has infected this institution. Yes, God's people in the Bible have been known to fall into sin from time to time, but not like the line of popes. I mean, I just look at the RCC today and just see pure evil and nothing good at all about it.

Please, tell your doctor about the fish hat. The Catholic Church is the largest charity in the world, she feeds, houses, educates and provides medical to more people than any institution on earth. You've listed 10 complaints, most of which are lies. It just proves you are ranting, and not interested in a discussion. Take one falsehood at a time please.

 

[kepha]

Also, why is Mystery Babylon unmistakenly the Roman Catholic Church?

Well, while there are many reasons (according to Scripture), here are seven major ones that should hopefully erase any doubt for you.

#1. Roman Catholic Church is adorned in purple in scarlet (i.e. Cardinals wear scarlet and Archbishops wear purple (Which one can witness a sea of scarlet and purple in outdoor Catholic gatherings)). This is the exact colors of the Harlot, for she is adorned in purple in scarlet (Revelation 17:3-4).

#2. Roman Catholic Church has caused the death of more Christians than any other church could aspire to. Scripture states that the Harlot is drunk with the blood of the saints (Revelation 17:6).

#3. Roman Catholic Church (Rome) sits upon seven hills. The seven heads of the beast on which the woman (the harlot church) is said to sit are said to be representative of seven hills (Revelation 17:9).

#4. Roman Catholic Church which is referred to as a woman is synomous with being a city (i.e. the Vatican) that has great world wide influence (Revelation 17:18).

#5. Roman Catholic Church (Vatican) is a city of great wealth. In fact, if you were to read Revelation 18:9-19, you would see the financial fall of the city known as Babylon. This city was said to have great wealth and the people mourned over it's economic collapse. The previous chapter (Revelation 17) mentioned Mystery Babylon as a false religious world system (i.e. a Harlot), as well. So what religious world institution exists today who has a global wide influence financially in addition to it being known as a religious entity?

#6. Roman Catholic Church worships the "Queen of Heaven" (Mary).
Queen of Heaven - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Harlot calls herself a "Queen" (Revelation 18:7).

#7. Roman Catholic Church participates in the Eucharist or the Mass with a "golden cup." The Harlot drinks from a "golden cup" of abominations (Revelation 17:4).

Therefore, in conclusion:
The seven major clues or points in Scripture clearly tell us that the Harlot is the Roman Catholic Church within Revelation 17-18. If it is not, then it is by far the most strangest fluke or random chance parallel for no reason. However, I do not believe in coincidences. I believe everything happens for a reason by a perfectly sovereign God. Trust in the Word of God alone. Religious men will always lead you astray. Especially when they appear to be so blatantly obvious in wanting to appear religious.

Your post has Dave Hunt written all over it.

#1. Roman Catholic Church is adorned in purple in scarlet (i.e. Cardinals wear scarlet and Archbishops wear purple (Which one can witness a sea of scarlet and purple in outdoor Catholic gatherings)). This is the exact colors of the Harlot, for she is adorned in purple in scarlet (Revelation 17:3-4).

Hunt ignores the obvious symbolic meaning of the colors—purple for royalty and red for the blood of Christian martyrs. Instead, he is suddenly literal in his interpretation. He understood well enough that the woman symbolizes a city and that the fornication symbolizes something other than literal sex, but now he wants to assign the colors a literal, earthly fulfillment in a few vestments of certain Catholic clergy.

Purple and red are not the dominant colors of Catholic clerical vestments. White is. All priests wear white (including bishops and cardinals when they are saying Mass)—even the pope does so.

The purple and scarlet of the Whore are contrasted with the white of the New Jerusalem, the Bride of Christ (Rev. 19:8). This is a problem for Hunt for three reasons:

(a) we have already noted that the dominant color of Catholic clerical vestments is white, which would identify them with New Jerusalem if the color is taken literally;

b) the clothing of the Bride is given a symbolic interpretation ("the righteous acts of the saints;" 19:8); implying that the clothing of the Whore should also be given a symbolic meaning; and

(c) the identification of the Bride as New Jerusalem (Rev. 3:12, 21:2, 10) suggests that the Whore may be old (apostate) Jerusalem—a contrast used elsewhere in Scripture (Gal. 4:25–26).

Hunt ignores the liturgical meaning of purple and red in Catholic symbolism. Purple symbolizes repentance, and red honors the blood of Christ and the Christian martyrs.

It is appropriate for Catholic clerics to wear purple and scarlet, if for no other reason because they have been liturgical colors of the true religion since ancient Israel.

Hunt neglects to remind his readers that God commanded that scarlet yarn and wool be used in liturgical ceremonies (Lev. 14:4, 6, 49–52; Num. 19:6), and that God commanded that thepriests’ vestments be made with purple and scarlet yarn (Ex. 28:4–8, 15, 33, 39:1–8, 24, 29).

#1 is a sick, hateful inference, with no basis in reality. So is the rest your psychotic assertions. For further refutations of Dave Hunt's ignorant bigotry, see Hunting the Whore of Babylon | Catholic Answers

Posting long lists of hate propaganda doesn't disprove Catholicism, it just proves you can ride a bulldozer and delude yourselves into thinking you have a case.

 

[kepha]

The Myth of Vatican Wealth

​

Dave Hunt, the "pope" of paranoid funnymentalism, states, "[The Whore’s] incredible wealth next caught John’s eye. She was ‘decked with gold and precious stones and pearls . . . ’ [Rev. 17:4]."

The problem is that, regardless of what it had in the past, the modern Vatican is not fantastically wealthy. In fact, it has run a budget deficit in most recent years and has an annual budget only around the size of that of the Archdiocese of Chicago. Furthermore, wealth was much more in character with pagan Rome or apostate Jerusalem, both key economic centers. Hunting the Whore of Babylon | Catholic Answers

This is a report from the U.S. government. Specifically, the CIA fact book, it gives an overview of the economies of every country in the world. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/vt.html Click on "Economy". There is a $20 million deficit. Vatican wealth is a myth.

VATICAN CITY, JAN. 6, 2011 (Zenit.org).- Here is a Vatican translation of Benedict XVI's apostolic letter issued "motu proprio" on the prevention and countering of illegal activities in the financial and monetary sectors.

Vatican City, 9 October 2013 (VIS) – The Holy See Press Office has today issued a communique on the new Law XVIII of Vatican City State (8 October 2013), regarding transparency, supervision and information in the field of finance. The full text is published here

Art Treasures

Art treasures bring in much need tourist dollars for administration costs, much of which also goes to the poor. Sell them off?
to whom? To private collectors? The world will never see nor derive any benefit from the treasures in private hands. And the public who might visit the rest of the treasures in museums can visit them now in the Vatican museums. They are not being hoarded. They are being preserved and displayed and widely enjoyed. I'd say, leave them there.

Would they feel "better" if Egypt would sell the pyramids, France the Eiffel Tower, China the Wall, etc., etc., to feed their hungry? These people are real jokers, and they really do not know what the "treasures" of the Vatican are ... Maybe if they sell the Sistine Chapel, piece by piece of stone and mortar to another country, they will have more cash to increase their catholic contributions around the world ... Have you ever seen or heard of all the money that goes out of the Vatican to dozens of countries around the world each year to help???? The help goes not only to Catholics, but to all ... "The Vatican Treasures" issue is a really old one ... always used by those that want to put down Catholicism at its roots ... The folks that criticize Catholics and the Vatican would feel much better if the Pope would live in a shack, in rags, and extreme poverty. (observers say he actually lives an austere life of much penance, prayer, and fasting.)Well I have news for them ... The president of Argentina lives in the Pink House, the president of the USA lives in the White House, the Queen of England lives in Buckingham Palace (?), and the Pope lives in the Vatican.

Lastly, orphanages and hospitals are not money making assets.

Vatican wealth is a myth.

 

[Dogknox]

Also, why is Mystery Babylon unmistakenly the Roman Catholic Church?

Well, while there are many reasons (according to Scripture), here are seven major ones that should hopefully erase any doubt for you.

.

Jason0047 Fact is Babylon mentioned in the scriptures is "ROME"! Pagan ROME proven because real Babylon, at the time of the New Testament was a waste land nothing was living there. The Early Church used the word "Babylon" as code word to mean Rome!

1 Peter 5:13
She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark.

Your words... Roman Catholic Church worships the "Queen of Heaven" (Mary).

I Reply: The Catholic "HONORS Mary OUR MOTHER!"
FACT: God commands "Honor your father & Mother"!

Jason0047 If Jesus did NOT honor Mary his mother, he would be sinning, Jesus would be breaking a COMMANDMENT! Christians KNOW; Jesus cannot sin so we KNOW; Jesus MUST honor Mary his Mother!

Catholics have Honored Mary for the past two thousand years!!!
Catholic's Honor Mary because we are IN The Body Of Jesus! The Body does what the head of the Body commands!
Catholic's honor Mary because she is our MOTHER!!

Scriptures are clear!!!!
Luke 1:48
for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now onall generations will call me blessed,

Jason0047 From the moment the words left Mary's mother "From Now On" this scripture PROPHESY has come true!
Catholics have ALWAYS Honored Mary our Mother; For two thousand years we have called "Mary Blessed!"

Jason0047 Do you see it???? "All Generations" this means; Mary has an ANCESTRY a Genealogy!
It means "I a Catholic, am in Mary's family, it Means Mary is My Mother!
It means because Mary is my Mother; Jesus is my BROTHER! Because Jesus is my brother God must be my Father!

Jason0047 You reject Mary and rightly so.. She is NOT your mother, Jesus cannot be your brother!

THINK: All who reject the mother of the King reject the King himself!
You reject Mary the Mother of the King!
The Kings mother is ALWAYS honored with the title "Queen Mother!"

 

[Dogknox]

First, it is just silly to suggest that there were Bibles before the printing press (As if that is what I believe and or most Christians believe). The truth is that nobody believes that. Second, if there is one organization that is the most Anti-Christian or unbiblical, it is the RCC (Roman Catholic Church). Did you ever watch the Ten Commandments the movie starring Charleston Heston and or read the part in the Bible about the 2nd Commandment about idolatry? Catholics try and take that out of their Bibles. Did not Jesus warn of us religious men who like to appear outwardly religious with flowing robes, etc.? Where in the world did any of the apostles pray to dead saints and or revere Mary as if she wasn't a sinner? Jesus warned against putting your treasure here upon this Earth and not in Heaven. The RCC flaunts it's wealth (While that money could go to the poor).

You said... First, it is just silly to suggest that there were Bibles before the printing press (As if that is what I believe and or most Christians believe). The truth is that nobody believes that.

I reply: FACT: There were few bibles before the printing press.... Thus the very idea of being saved by the scriptures ALONE and "scriptures are all man needs to arrive at truth": Must be a LIE!!!!

It PROVES the teaching of; "All man needs is the scriptures" is a man made TRADITION!!!
The TRADITION started after the Printing press!!!

Jason0047 The scriptures are very clear... "Jesus established his ONE, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church and he remains ALWAYS with his church to this very day!!!"
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Jason0047 Jesus is ALWAYS WITH his Holy Catholic Church!
You are forced to reject the scriptures to say; "Satan has somehow overpowered Jesus and Satan has TAKEN Jesus' holy Body from Jesus!"

Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to his One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church to guide her FOREVER!!!!

John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever.

You are forced to reject the scriptures!!
You are forced to say: God ERRS!!!!
You must believe God the Holy Spirit lead the Body of Jesus into error!!

 

[Jason0047]

You said... First, it is just silly to suggest that there were Bibles before the printing press (As if that is what I believe and or most Christians believe). The truth is that nobody believes that.

I reply: FACT: There were few bibles before the printing press.... Thus the very idea of being saved by the scriptures ALONE and "scriptures are all man needs to arrive at truth": Must be a LIE!!!!

It PROVES the teaching of; "All man needs is the scriptures" is a man made TRADITION!!!
The TRADITION started after the Printing press!!!

Jason0047 The scriptures are very clear... "Jesus established his ONE, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church and he remains ALWAYS with his church to this very day!!!"
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Jason0047 Jesus is ALWAYS WITH his Holy Catholic Church!
You are forced to reject the scriptures to say; "Satan has somehow overpowered Jesus and Satan has TAKEN Jesus' holy Body from Jesus!"

Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to his One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church to guide her FOREVER!!!!

John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever.

You are forced to reject the scriptures!!
You are forced to say: God ERRS!!!!
You must believe God the Holy Spirit lead the Body of Jesus into error!!

There is no sense in you quoting Scripture if you regulate it to the bench. There is no power or authority in employing such a tactic. 2 Timothy 3:16 says ALL Scripture is profitable to make the man of God perfect and fully furnished unto ALL or EVERY good work. I go more into depth on this passage and others in my Biblical Defense of Sola Scriptura.

 

[Jason0047]

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/100040-biblical-defense-sola-scriptura.html

 

[Jason0047]

1. Ah, how fortunate for you. Even though, the Anglican Church uses purple and red, as do the Baptists, and the Methodists, etc.

2. Umm....no we haven't. That's simply based on the assumption of the Church not being Christians. So, you are going off an assumption, not fact.

3. The Vatican doesn't sit on the Seven Hills of Rome. While the Vatican hill is a hill, its on the wrong side of the Tiber River. On the East bank of the River is Rome and its seven hills. The Vatican sits on the west bank.

4. Really? That applies to EVERY MAJOR CITY IN THE WORLD.

5. You've been lied to, the Vatican itself is not as wealthy as you think it is, since most of its wealth is not liquid, but in assets. Most of which being property. However, as to the "liquid wealth" of the Church, the majority of it goes to the ministries of the Church.

6. So are you calling Mary the Harlot? Or are you saying we've made her a Harlot? Or are we now to ignore the entirety of history, such as the "Queen of Heaven" having multiple meanings throughout history? Also, you are ignoring Revelation 12 here. Mary is crowned with stars.

I would love to debate this in another thread soon. However, I am currently working on a study of the Bible here at CC. So my debate on these points will have to wait. For if I am going to reply, I am not going to give you an excuse to ignore the truth (By giving you the quick answer). I will answer each point thoroughly.

 

[ThomistColin]

There is no sense in you quoting Scripture if you regulate it to the bench. There is no power or authority in employing such a tactic. 2 Timothy 3:16 says ALL Scripture is profitable to make the man of God perfect and fully furnished unto ALL or EVERY good work. I go more into depth on this passage and others in my Biblical Defense of Sola Scriptura.

So, when you are given Scripture, and we agree to play by your rules, you discount us because we are playing by your man-made rules? Wow. Just wow.

 

[ThomistColin]

I would love to debate this in another thread soon. However, I am currently working on a study of the Bible here at CC. So my debate on these points will have to wait. For if I am going to reply, I am not going to give you an excuse to ignore the truth (By giving you the quick answer). I will answer each point thoroughly.

Save it. Go ahead and put it up. I believed it once, and you aren't showing me anything I haven't read or preached before. This belief isn't old, and it is fairly new. I bet you are a premillenialist believer. Because outside of that one interpretation of Revelation, no one holds to this.

 

[Jason0047]

So, when you are given Scripture, and we agree to play by your rules, you discount us because we are playing by your man-made rules? Wow. Just wow.

No. You are twisting what I said. I said there is no real power or authority in your quoting Scripture like Christ and the other apostles had quoted it because you don't make the Scriptures your final word of authority like they did. They did not settle matters by spoken or written tradition but by the written Word of God like the Bereans did in Acts 17:11.

 

[Nick01]

Whenever I read these sorts of threads, I usually find that most people, on both sides of the argument, don't actually deal with the idea of sola scriptura as the Reformers posited it, but instead use some sort of hyper realist literalism around the phrase that's actually much more in keeping with the radical Anabaptists than the mainstream of the Protestant Reformation. We have to remember that the Reformation was a CONTEXT-BOUND movement that had very specific objectives - mainly, curtailing the excesses of the Roman church, and restoring the Scriptures as the source of doctrine, rather than the magisterium. The plan was never to split with Rome, but simply to reform it. So, many of the emphases of the movement (including the Solas) have to be read in that light. Sola Scriptura was never meant to be a repudiation of all extra-biblical authority - instead, it was meant to be a corrective, rejecting all authority that had no biblical authority, or that flagrantly contradicted biblical authority (papal infallibility and the practice of indulgences being some of the key ones that Luther in particular took issue with)

Can the creeds be useful? Yes. Is it worth reading the works of the church fathers? Yes. Should Scripture be the only source of information Christians should give reference to? No. Not even the likes of Luther or Calvin took this latter view.

Instead, Scripture is the ultimate and final authority on matters of faith, praxis, and doctrine. Good teaching can exist outside the Scriptures, but its ultimate worthiness and truth is only so insofar as they are in keeping with and/or reliant on the Scriptures.

From a purely historo-critical perspective, it is also MUCH easier to be sure of what it was that the immediate apostles of Jesus thought and wrote (that which is recorded in the Scriptures) than what the later fathers wrote, let alone what the oral traditions of the apostles, if any outside the Scriptures were. Indeed, the NT books were almost certainly written as a direct result of the deaths and ageing of the apostles - it was out of a concern to accurately preserve the words of Jesus and the apostle that the oral traditions were committed to writing within a generation.

 

[Jackson123]

Protestants (or whatever they want to call themselves) often dismiss the writings of 1st and 2nd generation Christians because none of them were Protestant.


The Bible according to Hollywood. Yea, I saw it. You must be a Seventh Day Adventist. We didn't change the Ten Commandments.
Catholic sources of our defense to the baseless charges of Catholics changing the Ten Commandments…

1. Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) appeared on the scene in 1992.
   It lists the Ten Commandments as they were before Christ.
2. NJB…first appeared on the scene in 1985. The NJB supports the CCC.
3. NAB…first appeared on the scene in 1970. The NAB supports the CCC.
4. JB……first appeared on the scene in 1966. The JB supports the CCC.
5. RSV-CE…first appeared on the scene in 1965. The RSV-CE supports the CCC.
6. NCE…first appeared on the scene in 1954. The NCE supports the CCC.
7. CE…first appeared on the scene in 1948. The CE (Confraternity Edition) supports the CCC.
8. Challoner-Rheims…first appeared on the scene in 1749. The Challoner-Rheims supports the CCC.
9. Douay-Rheims…first appeared on the scene in 1592-1609. The Douay-Rheims supports the CCC.
   Note that the date for this Bible predates any Protestant Bible by at least 2 years.
10. The Latin Vulgate…first appeared on the scene in 404. The Latin Vulgate supports the CCC.
    Note that the date for this Bible predates any Protestant Bible by over 1200 years.
11. The Septuagint…first appeared on the scene about 148 B.C. This is the Bible that was used by the Apostles.
    The Septuagint supports the CCC. Note that the date for this Bible predates any Protestant Bible by over 1700 years.

Now it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to prove that the Ten Commandments could not possibly have been changed by the Catholic Church which did not even exist for almost 200 years after the Septuagint was written. Add to that the fact that ALL Catholic Bibles, ALL the way back to 148 B.C., are in agreement, and yet Protestant Bibles which did not even appear on the scene until 1611, list the commandments in the ‘different’ order.
So…WHO really did change the Ten Commandments? source

Please, if you are going to make charges against the Catholic Church, then do it with real evidence (if you can find any) and not by personal opinions.

That's just one response to your four-fold cluster bomb, and I don't reply to such tactics. But I will say one more thing. Liturgical vestments were used by the Jews. Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14 - priests wear special vestments in heaven. Our priests also wear special vestments in celebrating the Holy Mass on earth. source

The principal purpose of liturgy is the glorification of God. The liturgical vestments must also contribute to the glory of God. Our internal acts must find expression in our outward appearance, for man is not only spirit, but also flesh. Acts of adoration and reverence, which proceed directly from the soul, are expressed by acts of the body, such as genuflecting and inclinations. Likewise, the garments worn by clerics in presenting themselves before God to give Him public honor are an outward expression of their feeling of reverence in the presence of God. In this respect they are no less a means of glorifying God than the bending of the knee and similar acts of respect.

Try not to get upset if your pastor wears a $500 suit to church.



Please, tell your doctor about the fish hat. The Catholic Church is the largest charity in the world, she feeds, houses, educates and provides medical to more people than any institution on earth. You've listed 10 complaints, most of which are lies. It just proves you are ranting, and not interested in a discussion. Take one falsehood at a time please.

History as long as in line with the bible is OK.

Your history said Peter at Rome 42 AD

History by the best Historian/st Luke describe at the arrival of St Paul, 60 AD people still not sure what is Christianity.

What is Peter do for 18 years his Pope time?

It prove this history is design for support your lie doctrine.

 

[Jason0047]

Save it. Go ahead and put it up. I believed it once, and you aren't showing me anything I haven't read or preached before. This belief isn't old, and it is fairly new. I bet you are a premillenialist believer. Because outside of that one interpretation of Revelation, no one holds to this.

There is nothing good about the RCC. Just attending their services in the past shows there is only mystery and boredom there and not any of the fruits of the Spirit and or joy. It's crimes are too innumerable to count. Jesus even warned us about men adorning themselves so as to be religious. So yeah, you have a better chance at convincing me that rain is not wet, my friend.

 

[Dogknox]

There is nothing good about the RCC. Just attending their services in the past shows there is only mystery and boredom there and not any of the fruits of the Spirit and or joy. It's crimes are too innumerable to count. Jesus even warned us about men adorning themselves so as to be religious. So yeah, you have a better chance at convincing me that rain is not wet, my friend.

Jason0047 Jesus established ONE CHURCH! Note: Ignatius Of Antioch was a close friend of the Apostle John!!
Ignatius of Antioch said...
"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

Jason0047 Did you see it.... Ignatius Of Antioch is a BISHOP! He is telling you The Bishop is where Jesus is! just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church

Scriptures are clear 2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.

False Teachers will be AMONG the Catholic Church! Martin Luther the first De-Former was a Catholic Priest.
Jason0047 It does NOT say; The Catholic Church will be Among False Teachers; The Catholic Church was NOT AMONG Martin Luther or Calvin!!

The "Deformers" were Catholics.. They were >AMONG< Catholics! Proving the Catholic Church is the way of truth and the "De-formers and their offspring (you) are acting Against Jesus... Heretics!

Verse #2 Proves the Holy Catholic Church MUST BE the "Way Of Truth". Many follow the false teachers they are against 'the Way of Truth!'

Jason0047 Jesus' Church does NOT need to be restored!!!! Jesus never left his Church!! He is ALWAYS WITH his Church to the end of the world!

Matthew 28:20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

 

[Dogknox]

There is no sense in you quoting Scripture if you regulate it to the bench. There is no power or authority in employing such a tactic. 2 Timothy 3:16 says ALL Scripture is profitable to make the man of God perfect and fully furnished unto ALL or EVERY good work. I go more into depth on this passage and others in my Biblical Defense of Sola Scriptura.

I reply: YES... 2 Timothy 3:16 says ALL Scripture is profitable!!!!!

NOTE.... It does NOT say ONLY SCRIPTURE!!
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

USEFUL for TEACHING!!!! Church TEACHES!!!
USEFUL for REBUKING!!! Church REBUKES!!!
USEFUL for CORRECTING!!! Church CORRECTS!!!
USEFUL for TRAINING!!! Church Trains !!!

USEFUL but NOT ALONE!!!!!

Sola Scriptura is a MAN MADE TRADITION... It first appeared seventeen hundred years AFTER Jesus!

Sola Scriptura is against Jesus and his Church!!
Jesus gave the world his CHURCH guided by the Holy Spirit: Commissioned to TEACH ALL NATIONS!!!
Church makes DISCIPLES of all nations by BAPTIZING, the bible can't baptize anyone!!

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Jason0047 You are fighting AGAINST the scriptures; Jesus himself!!!
48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

Jason0047 you CONDEMN your self!!!

 

[JesusIsAll]

USEFUL for TEACHING!!!! Church TEACHES!!!
USEFUL for REBUKING!!! Church REBUKES!!!
USEFUL for CORRECTING!!! Church CORRECTS!!!
USEFUL for TRAINING!!! Church Trains !!!

Jason0047 you CONDEMN your self!!!

Such typical Catholic venom. The church is the body of believers, the bride of Christ, not some building, or some sinful man, sitting on an obscene throne and calling himself Holy Father, the name of God. (John 17:11)

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Matthew 7:15

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 2 Corinthians 11:14

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2 Peter 1:16

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: for he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. 2 John 1:10-11

He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD. Proverbs 17:15

 

[Jason0047]

I reply: YES... 2 Timothy 3:16 says ALL Scripture is profitable!!!!!

NOTE.... It does NOT say ONLY SCRIPTURE!!
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

USEFUL for TEACHING!!!! Church TEACHES!!!
USEFUL for REBUKING!!! Church REBUKES!!!
USEFUL for CORRECTING!!! Church CORRECTS!!!
USEFUL for TRAINING!!! Church Trains !!!

USEFUL but NOT ALONE!!!!!

Sola Scriptura is a MAN MADE TRADITION... It first appeared seventeen hundred years AFTER Jesus!

Sola Scriptura is against Jesus and his Church!!
Jesus gave the world his CHURCH guided by the Holy Spirit: Commissioned to TEACH ALL NATIONS!!!
Church makes DISCIPLES of all nations by BAPTIZING, the bible can't baptize anyone!!

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Jason0047 You are fighting AGAINST the scriptures; Jesus himself!!!
48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

Jason0047 you CONDEMN your self!!!

2 Timothy 3:16 doesn't say it is the church that guides a person into all truth. It says the Scriptures are profitable for doctrine; not the church. Also, the Scriptures say that the Spirit will guide a person into all truth, too (Not the church). It's like when a sinner is convicted to repent of his or her sins and accept Jesus as their Savior after reading a Bible in his or her hotel room. They did not need anyone telling them what to do. You make it sound like God cannot open a person's understanding when they read His Word. You think the church has to do the interpreting for them. What verse actually says that? For if that is the case, then we would all be in trouble. For if we are to follow another man, they could just make up whatever they wanted leading you astray. But God's Word is written down for all to see and it 100% trust worthy and true (Unlike man who can lie and can be sinful). For if I had a son, I would not allow him to step foot into an RCC church. Why? Well, it is not news that the RCC has a dark and evil history with llittle children; And Jesus said, woe unto them that makes one of these little ones to stumble into sin. Jesus also said you will know them by their fruits, too. The RCC has got plenty of bad fruits to label them a million times over as false prophets (i.e. false believers).