Scriptures Cannot be alone... Scripture is clear
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I Reply: 1 and 2 Timothy is a letter from Paul to Timothy on how to be a good BISHOP. Paul tells Timothy to COMMAND Men, he is to TEACH Men!!Timothy's Teaching will save men!!!
1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
Jason0047 The TEACHING of the CHURCH saves! Timothy the BISHOP saves by his teaching!!
Bishops TEACH the Church TEACHES; Teaching SAVES men!!!!
Men can't teach they are not guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth, Church is!
Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Jason0047 God tells you to LISTEN TO THE CHURCH or you are OUTSIDE of his Body his CHURCH!!!
Matthew 18:17
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Jason0047 Clearly you are NOT in the Body of Jesus because Jesus' BODY is his CHURCH!
The Church Jesus established is Guided by the HOLY SPIRIT.. FOREVER!
Jason0047 It is just this simple; You are >>NOT << in Jesus' Holy Body so God cannot be your father!
Clearly Mary is NOT your mother.. You are NOT in her Generational Family; So Jesus cannot be your brother!
Ignatius of Antioch Just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).
1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
Jason0047 The TEACHING of the CHURCH saves! Timothy the BISHOP saves by his teaching!!
Bishops TEACH the Church TEACHES; Teaching SAVES men!!!!
Men can't teach they are not guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth, Church is!
Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Jason0047 God tells you to LISTEN TO THE CHURCH or you are OUTSIDE of his Body his CHURCH!!!
Matthew 18:17
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Jason0047 Clearly you are NOT in the Body of Jesus because Jesus' BODY is his CHURCH!
The Church Jesus established is Guided by the HOLY SPIRIT.. FOREVER!
Jason0047 It is just this simple; You are >>NOT << in Jesus' Holy Body so God cannot be your father!
Clearly Mary is NOT your mother.. You are NOT in her Generational Family; So Jesus cannot be your brother!
Ignatius of Antioch Just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).
Nice thoughts.... BUT!!!!
Nick01 There IS NO SCRIPTURES saying>>> "The Scriptures are the ultimate and final authority"!!! None can be found!!!
You would think if scripture is the > ULTIMATE AUTHORITY< then it would say so in the scriptures!!!??
Fact is the scriptures point to the AUTHORITY of the CHURCH!!!!!!
Nick01 Refuse to listen to the Church? Then the scriptures tell you; "You are a PAGAN!!!"
Pagan: A person OUTSIDE of the body of God!
Scriptures are very very clear.... >> The Church Jesus established is "The Pillar and the foundation of truth!"
Scriptures tell you.. The CHURCH makes known the wisdom of God!!!
8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ,9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Nick01 Clearly FROM THE SCRIPTURES >> The CHURCH is the Body of Jesus!
Clearly the scriptures are the words of Jesus... Jesus tells you; CHURCH TEACHES and Church SAVES!!!
Nick01 Church TEACHES, the scriptures cannot teach, teachers TEACH, they use books!
Jesus tells you "IN HIS SCRIPTURES"; The gates of hell will NOT defeat the CHURCH!
Matthew 16:18
So I tell you, you are Peter. On this rock I will build my church, and the power of death will not be able to defeat it.
The scriptures were decided to be INSPIRED by the Catholic Church in 400 A.D. after Three Catholic CHURCH Councils!!
Bishops in the Catholic Church weeded out the manuscripts not considered to be useful for the Celebration of Liturgy then they put the 73 manuscripts into one book she named "The Bible!"
Nick01 For 400 years there was NO Bible.... Just many hundreds of Manuscripts!!
Ignatius of Antioch A friend of the Apostle John wrote this...
"Just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).
Nick01 "Just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church!"
Nick01 There IS NO SCRIPTURES saying>>> "The Scriptures are the ultimate and final authority"!!! None can be found!!!
You would think if scripture is the > ULTIMATE AUTHORITY< then it would say so in the scriptures!!!??
Fact is the scriptures point to the AUTHORITY of the CHURCH!!!!!!
Nick01 Refuse to listen to the Church? Then the scriptures tell you; "You are a PAGAN!!!"
Pagan: A person OUTSIDE of the body of God!
Scriptures are very very clear.... >> The Church Jesus established is "The Pillar and the foundation of truth!"
Scriptures tell you.. The CHURCH makes known the wisdom of God!!!
8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ,9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Nick01 Clearly FROM THE SCRIPTURES >> The CHURCH is the Body of Jesus!
Clearly the scriptures are the words of Jesus... Jesus tells you; CHURCH TEACHES and Church SAVES!!!
Nick01 Church TEACHES, the scriptures cannot teach, teachers TEACH, they use books!
Jesus tells you "IN HIS SCRIPTURES"; The gates of hell will NOT defeat the CHURCH!
Matthew 16:18
So I tell you, you are Peter. On this rock I will build my church, and the power of death will not be able to defeat it.
The scriptures were decided to be INSPIRED by the Catholic Church in 400 A.D. after Three Catholic CHURCH Councils!!
Bishops in the Catholic Church weeded out the manuscripts not considered to be useful for the Celebration of Liturgy then they put the 73 manuscripts into one book she named "The Bible!"
Nick01 For 400 years there was NO Bible.... Just many hundreds of Manuscripts!!
Ignatius of Antioch A friend of the Apostle John wrote this...
"Just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).
Nick01 "Just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church!"
The scriptures are very clear.. This PROPHESY (below) is proven true... Mary has a GENERATIONAL Family Tree! The Ancestry of Mary has ALWAYS honored her as Blessed Mother!
FACT: Jesus Must Honor Mary his Mother God commanded "Honor your Father & Mother!" If Jesus did not honor Mary he would be sinning, he would not be perfect so he would not be God!
Jason0047 Jesus has ALWAYS Honored Mary and the Catholic people have also for two thousand years; Catholic's have honored her as: Blessed Mother!
I am IN Jesus thus Mary is my Mother! Mary is my Mother so God is my father!
You are NOT in the body of Jesus, you REJECT his holy Catholic body as a lie!
FACT: You believe; "Satan has some how overpowered Jesus and Satan took Jesus' holy body from Jesus!"
To believe Jesus was defeated by Satan you also MUST believe; "The Holy Spirit sent by Jesus to his CHURCH, guided her into error!" To believe this, you MUST.... You have to believe; God ERRS! To believe as you do: "God errs", is works of Satan!!
46 And Mary said:
“My soul glorifies the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
Jason0047 I pray for you.... Run from Satan!!!
Reject the "De-Formers" their teachings of men, for the truth offered by the words of Jesus and his holy Church!
FACT: Jesus Must Honor Mary his Mother God commanded "Honor your Father & Mother!" If Jesus did not honor Mary he would be sinning, he would not be perfect so he would not be God!
Jason0047 Jesus has ALWAYS Honored Mary and the Catholic people have also for two thousand years; Catholic's have honored her as: Blessed Mother!
I am IN Jesus thus Mary is my Mother! Mary is my Mother so God is my father!
You are NOT in the body of Jesus, you REJECT his holy Catholic body as a lie!
FACT: You believe; "Satan has some how overpowered Jesus and Satan took Jesus' holy body from Jesus!"
To believe Jesus was defeated by Satan you also MUST believe; "The Holy Spirit sent by Jesus to his CHURCH, guided her into error!" To believe this, you MUST.... You have to believe; God ERRS! To believe as you do: "God errs", is works of Satan!!
46 And Mary said:
“My soul glorifies the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
Jason0047 I pray for you.... Run from Satan!!!
Reject the "De-Formers" their teachings of men, for the truth offered by the words of Jesus and his holy Church!
Where is the verse about the church being the ultimate source of teaching on behalf of God, let alone Rome? I have yet to see it. If you're going to set up strawman criteria for your argument, we will get nowhere fast. IF you actually want to sit down and discuss the teachings of the apostles, that is something else.
Never said I don't listen to the church. I just said I don't recognise, and neither did the Reformers recognise, the authority of the church when it speaks without the authority of the Scriptures. I think your definition of pagan is a bit flimsy, in any case.
What is a pillar other than that which supports the truth? I AGREE that the church Jesus established is the pillar and the foundation of truth. unfortunately, it does not follow that therefore the church is the ultimate authority of truth. In fact, the whole idea of a pillar assumes an actual truth that the pillar supports. Where did the early church derive their teaching authority from? The apostolic deposit, contained in what we call the New Testament.
Yep. I agree What's your point? Protestants also believe that the church is called to 'make God's wisdom known', although here Paul seems to have his mind on heavenly authorities (perhaps angels?). Anyway, I'm not at all sure what you think this passage is saying in support of your argument.
Bingo.
Hmm, not at all sure church saves. Paul's point in Ephesians 3 is Christians making known God's wisdom and the riches of Christ, the fresh revelation of God that was not known previously, but has been made known to all, Gentile and Jew. The church preaches that gospel proclamation, yes, but I don't think you've established anything close to the church actually doing the final 'saving' (as borderline irrelevant to the discussion this already is)
Yep. I'm sure you would agree that the Scriptures are such a book for teaching, and are particularly highlighted by Paul in 1 Timothy. Also, the Holy Spirit teaches us, reminding us of what Jesus said, as Jesus himself promised He would do. But again, not sure what point you're trying to make.
Yep.
Nope. Obviously people believe at least SOME of the NT was inspired before then, otherwise all the ecumenical councils would have been jabbering about nothing. Instead, most of them argued about the interpretation of Scripture. The Fathers all quote Scripture in order to make their point, and rarely teach purely from their own authority or that of some ethereal oral tradition.
In any case, most of them were not run by Rome, but were run by Constantine and his successors who resided in the East of the Empire (Constantinople) rather than Rome itself. Most of the important figures of the early councils (those before the 5th century) were from the Eastern or Middle Eastern churches (such as Alexandria), and by the time Rome was running its own Councils, much of the Eastern parts of the church had split away.
We can argue all you like about WHEN EXACTLY everyone agreed on which books were inspired, but that doesn't change the fact that people already assumed inspiration in NT texts. I mean, goodness, what was Marcion doing, drawing up heretical canon lists, if people didn't really care about the authority of the written Scriptures until hundreds of years later.
HA! I don't even know what to say about this - first of all, you do realise we have manuscripts from before the Roman ecumenical councils, yes? We have BIBLES from before them. What they were called is irrelevant (though I believe Chrysotom may have made a reference to biblia - in Greek of course - in the third century). Feel free to come back to this if you have some actual historical bones to put on your assertions.
a) not strictly true. We have evidence of NT documents being collected together before 400 AD, even if the listing is not always identical to that of current established canons. We have complete Bibles (almost certainly made in the Eastern part of the empire) from about 330 AD.
b) It actually doesn't matter if there was a single omnibus called the Bible. What matters is where did people get there doctrinal authority from?
Catholic means universal - it comes from the Greek word καθόλου, which basically means 'in regards to the whole' or as a synonym of generally. That is how Ignatius uses it - there is nothing in the passage indicating a reference specifically to a Church in Rome (which would be odd, seeing as Smyrna is in modern day Turkey, in the Eastern Roman Empire and with very little connection to Rome). It only later (MUCH later) came into use as a shortened term for the RCC, mostly when Rome split from the Eastern churches. Since then, the term has become even more confusing, because there isn't even a single church in Rome - there are Protestants there too!
Never said I don't listen to the church. I just said I don't recognise, and neither did the Reformers recognise, the authority of the church when it speaks without the authority of the Scriptures. I think your definition of pagan is a bit flimsy, in any case.
What is a pillar other than that which supports the truth? I AGREE that the church Jesus established is the pillar and the foundation of truth. unfortunately, it does not follow that therefore the church is the ultimate authority of truth. In fact, the whole idea of a pillar assumes an actual truth that the pillar supports. Where did the early church derive their teaching authority from? The apostolic deposit, contained in what we call the New Testament.
Yep. I agree What's your point? Protestants also believe that the church is called to 'make God's wisdom known', although here Paul seems to have his mind on heavenly authorities (perhaps angels?). Anyway, I'm not at all sure what you think this passage is saying in support of your argument.
Bingo.
Hmm, not at all sure church saves. Paul's point in Ephesians 3 is Christians making known God's wisdom and the riches of Christ, the fresh revelation of God that was not known previously, but has been made known to all, Gentile and Jew. The church preaches that gospel proclamation, yes, but I don't think you've established anything close to the church actually doing the final 'saving' (as borderline irrelevant to the discussion this already is)
Yep. I'm sure you would agree that the Scriptures are such a book for teaching, and are particularly highlighted by Paul in 1 Timothy. Also, the Holy Spirit teaches us, reminding us of what Jesus said, as Jesus himself promised He would do. But again, not sure what point you're trying to make.
Yep.
Nope. Obviously people believe at least SOME of the NT was inspired before then, otherwise all the ecumenical councils would have been jabbering about nothing. Instead, most of them argued about the interpretation of Scripture. The Fathers all quote Scripture in order to make their point, and rarely teach purely from their own authority or that of some ethereal oral tradition.
In any case, most of them were not run by Rome, but were run by Constantine and his successors who resided in the East of the Empire (Constantinople) rather than Rome itself. Most of the important figures of the early councils (those before the 5th century) were from the Eastern or Middle Eastern churches (such as Alexandria), and by the time Rome was running its own Councils, much of the Eastern parts of the church had split away.
We can argue all you like about WHEN EXACTLY everyone agreed on which books were inspired, but that doesn't change the fact that people already assumed inspiration in NT texts. I mean, goodness, what was Marcion doing, drawing up heretical canon lists, if people didn't really care about the authority of the written Scriptures until hundreds of years later.
HA! I don't even know what to say about this - first of all, you do realise we have manuscripts from before the Roman ecumenical councils, yes? We have BIBLES from before them. What they were called is irrelevant (though I believe Chrysotom may have made a reference to biblia - in Greek of course - in the third century). Feel free to come back to this if you have some actual historical bones to put on your assertions.
a) not strictly true. We have evidence of NT documents being collected together before 400 AD, even if the listing is not always identical to that of current established canons. We have complete Bibles (almost certainly made in the Eastern part of the empire) from about 330 AD.
b) It actually doesn't matter if there was a single omnibus called the Bible. What matters is where did people get there doctrinal authority from?
Catholic means universal - it comes from the Greek word καθόλου, which basically means 'in regards to the whole' or as a synonym of generally. That is how Ignatius uses it - there is nothing in the passage indicating a reference specifically to a Church in Rome (which would be odd, seeing as Smyrna is in modern day Turkey, in the Eastern Roman Empire and with very little connection to Rome). It only later (MUCH later) came into use as a shortened term for the RCC, mostly when Rome split from the Eastern churches. Since then, the term has become even more confusing, because there isn't even a single church in Rome - there are Protestants there too!
Nick01
Ignatius of Antioch is a BISHOP in the Catholic Church!
He ate the flesh of Jesus in the form of Bread called "Eucharist"!
He tells you
"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).
"just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church
There was NONE other!!! Jesus established one Holy Church making Peter the Chief Apostle!!! The Church Jesus established ate the Flesh of Jesus in the form of bread!!
Dionysius of Corinth said..
"You [Pope Soter] have also, by your very admonition, brought together the planting that was made by Peter and Paul at Rome and at Corinth; for both of them alike planted in our Corinth and taught us; and both alike, teaching similarly in Italy, suffered martyrdom at the same time" (Letter to Pope Soter [A.D. 170], in Eusebius, History of the Church 2:25:8).
Nick01 You cannot deny history!!!
The Catholic Church was the ONLY Church Jesus established!! On Peter!!
Peter the Key Holder!!
The Catholic Church came before the bible!!!
The Catholic Church closed the canon of scripture 400 years after Jesus!
Seventy Three (73) Books in the Bible then and still today!
Sixty six (66) in the protestant bibles because they took books ot of the bible!
Church TEACHES books do NOT TEACH the Bible is a BOOK the Church uses to TEACH, the Church is the AUTHORITY TEACHER of all nations!: COMMISSIONED BY God to TEACH all nations!!! ....
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
The Catholic Church is the Body of Jesus, Jesus remains ALWAYS WITH his CHURCH to the end of time!!
Ignatius of Antioch is a BISHOP in the Catholic Church!
He ate the flesh of Jesus in the form of Bread called "Eucharist"!
He tells you
"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).
"just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church
There was NONE other!!! Jesus established one Holy Church making Peter the Chief Apostle!!! The Church Jesus established ate the Flesh of Jesus in the form of bread!!
Dionysius of Corinth said..
"You [Pope Soter] have also, by your very admonition, brought together the planting that was made by Peter and Paul at Rome and at Corinth; for both of them alike planted in our Corinth and taught us; and both alike, teaching similarly in Italy, suffered martyrdom at the same time" (Letter to Pope Soter [A.D. 170], in Eusebius, History of the Church 2:25:8).
Nick01 You cannot deny history!!!
The Catholic Church was the ONLY Church Jesus established!! On Peter!!
Peter the Key Holder!!
The Catholic Church came before the bible!!!
The Catholic Church closed the canon of scripture 400 years after Jesus!
Seventy Three (73) Books in the Bible then and still today!
Sixty six (66) in the protestant bibles because they took books ot of the bible!
Church TEACHES books do NOT TEACH the Bible is a BOOK the Church uses to TEACH, the Church is the AUTHORITY TEACHER of all nations!: COMMISSIONED BY God to TEACH all nations!!! ....
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
The Catholic Church is the Body of Jesus, Jesus remains ALWAYS WITH his CHURCH to the end of time!!
I don't need a lot of caps and underlines and exclamation wingdings of all sort to confess who I listen to, for this is who I listen to;
(Heb 1:2)
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his
Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
(Rom 10:8)
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(Rom 10:9)
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(Rom 10:10)
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(Rom 10:11)
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(Heb 12:25)
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
I don't mind if some men want to listen to other men and think that is religiously swell. But JESUS speaking to me is the ONLY voice I hear
I'll never turn away from His pure and righteous Word.
(Heb 1:2)
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his
Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
(Rom 10:8)
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(Rom 10:9)
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(Rom 10:10)
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(Rom 10:11)
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(Heb 12:25)
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
I don't mind if some men want to listen to other men and think that is religiously swell. But JESUS speaking to me is the ONLY voice I hear
I'll never turn away from His pure and righteous Word.I Reply: The teaching of "Faith ALONE" first appeared seventeen hundred years AFTER Jesus! Same with the man made TEACHING of "Scriptures ALONE"! These teachings are not biblical they are "Man Made TRADITIONS!"
For you to say what you do.. You are forced to reject scriptures!!!
Scriptures... 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Clearly Jesus' Church does NOT need to be restored... Jesus is ALWAYS WITH his Church to the very end of the Age!
Jackson123 You are forced to believe "Satan has somehow overpowered Jesus and Satan has taken Jesus body from Jesus"!
For you to think Jesus' Church needs to be restored, you have to believe the Holy Spirit guided the Church Jesus established into error! You MUST believe God errs!!!!!!! You are doing the work of Satan believing God errs!!
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide his church FOREVER!!! The Holy Spirit is still today with the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church!
John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with youforever
For you to say what you do.. You are forced to reject scriptures!!!
Scriptures... 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Clearly Jesus' Church does NOT need to be restored... Jesus is ALWAYS WITH his Church to the very end of the Age!
Jackson123 You are forced to believe "Satan has somehow overpowered Jesus and Satan has taken Jesus body from Jesus"!
For you to think Jesus' Church needs to be restored, you have to believe the Holy Spirit guided the Church Jesus established into error! You MUST believe God errs!!!!!!! You are doing the work of Satan believing God errs!!
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide his church FOREVER!!! The Holy Spirit is still today with the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church!
John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with youforever
I don't need a lot of caps and underlines and exclamation wingdings of all sort to confess who I listen to, for this is who I listen to;
(Heb 1:2)
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his
Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
(Rom 10:8)
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(Rom 10:9)
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(Rom 10:10)
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(Rom 10:11)
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(Heb 12:25)
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
I don't mind if some men want to listen to other men and think that is religiously swell. But JESUS speaking to me is the ONLY voice I hear I'll never turn away from His pure and righteous Word.
(Heb 1:2)
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his
Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
(Rom 10:8)
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(Rom 10:9)
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(Rom 10:10)
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(Rom 10:11)
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(Heb 12:25)
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
I don't mind if some men want to listen to other men and think that is religiously swell. But JESUS speaking to me is the ONLY voice I hear
I'll never turn away from His pure and righteous Word.
Christians have ALWAYS eaten the flesh of Jesus in the form of bread!
Christians have always believed God can take any form he desires.. Including the form of bread!
Believe this....
52 Then the Jews ... AND Bride ....began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Manand drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
Yes, Jesus is who I listen to. I am of His Body. I know who His Body is. I eat His body and drink His Blood and have for many years. I and Jesus are ONE.
I am His Bride. This is what Jesus and I say;
(Rev 22:17)
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
I am His Bride. This is what Jesus and I say;
(Rev 22:17)
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
I fear there's little headway to be made in this discussion if you're going to take such an angle. Catholic does not, in itself, mean the church of Rome. The whole REASON the church split along eastern and western lines, finding at least some of its foundation in the quatrodemician arguments of the third century, was because there was no clear cut centre of power in the early church. Arguably, there was never intended to be. Rome was certainly a centre, yes. So was Antioch, Alexandria and Constantinople, just for starters. To read 'Roman' into Ignatius' 'Catholic' is an historical anachronism of a high order.
What are you attempting to prove by this? I don't doubt that Paul and Peter both were influential in Rome (though Paul's own writings seem to make it clear that he himself didn't begin the church in Rome. IT is possible Peter did, and I am happy to accept for the sake of argument that he did). The Paul planted the church at Corinth is not in dispute. Just not sure what you are attempting to argue by posting this.
I disagree with your exegesis of the relevant passages in Matthew - I don't think Jesus gives Peter that kind of authority. But let's assume that I agree, that Jesus really did build his church on Peter, and that Peter himself (and know other) holds the keys to the kingdom.
That still is quite a way off the idea of Rome being the arbiter of true teaching, and most importantly being the arbiter of what Scripture actually says. If you're trying to argue that we need the Roman Catholic Church in order to be able to arrive at a correct understanding of the gospel, arguing that Peter had primacy in the first century church (even if I agreed that is the historical case) is a long way from accomplishing that.
I'm going to assume that you're referring to the Roman Catholic Church here. The church in Rome existed before a collection of books like the Bible existed, yes. But it's not as if any authority Rome might have predates those event recorded in Scripture. I mean, you've had to rely on Scripture to make your argument - it would seem that at some level we agree that ecclesiastical authority comes from the early direct witnesses of the apostles as recorded in the NT documents.
No. Trent came up with its own canon, but there was widespread agreement about the canon of Scripture long before then. Obviously, the Apostolic Fathers quoted from the NT documents during the second century. Athanasius had a 27 book NT canon by the 360s, and his OT canon, while not identical to the Protestant canon, is not identical to the RCC canon either. He was not a Roman bishop. So your argument at this point is so loaded with important caveats as to mean very little.
Only if you go by Trent. Every Christian who is not RCC does not reckon their OT canon by Trent, but by other measures.
But really, all of this is a sideshow. Your problem is that you still have to appeal at some point to Scripture to find a foundation for saying the RCC is THE authoritative church, and has the authority to interpret and add to the Scriptures if it sees fit. But you have no basis to make that argument outside the Scriptures - the Apostolic Fathers certainly don't make it for you (I mean, have you READ Origen's interpretation of Matthew 16?)
I reply: What you say is not what HISTORY says!
The Eastern Church broke from Rome in the TENTH Century!!!
Un til then there was JUST the Catholic Church headed by the Popes from ROME!!
Today The Catholic Church AND the Eastern Church believe and TEACH the Flesh of Jesus is eaten in the form of bread!!! PROVING the One Church Jesus established has ALWAYS eaten the flesh of Jesus in the form of Bread!!
Nick01 all you have is suggestion and innuendo NO proof because there is no proof to back up your claims!
The Eastern Church baptizes infants today as does the Catholic Church!! PROVING the One Church Jesus established has ALWAYS Baptized infants!
The Eastern Church has BISHOPS!!! Bishops with the AUTHORITY to teach and command men!!
Nick01 QUESTION does your church have any AUTHORITY!!! Does your church have BISHOPS!!?
YOUR WORDS: I disagree with your exegesis of the relevant passages in Matthew - I don't think Jesus gives Peter that kind of authority. But let's assume that I agree, that Jesus really did build his church on Peter, and that Peter himself (and know other) holds the keys to the kingdom.
I reply:..Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
John 21:13
The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep.
The Catholic Church closed the canon of scripture 400 years after Jesus!
No. Trent came up with its own canon, but there was widespread agreement about the canon of Scripture long before then. Obviously, the Apostolic Fathers quoted from the NT documents during the second century. Athanasius had a 27 book NT canon by the 360s, and his OT canon, while not identical to the Protestant canon, is not identical to the RCC canon either. He was not a Roman bishop. So your argument at this point is so loaded with important caveats as to mean very little.
I reply: Trent came AFTER the Gutenberg bible, this bible had 72 Books the same books in the Canon established by the BISHOPS at the Council of Rome!
Nick01 Trent simply reaffirmed the historic canon of the Bible after it had been challenged by Protestants. The first council recorded as dealing with the canon was the Council of Rome, which convened in A.D. 382 under Pope Damascus. It was later councils, such as Hippo (393) and Carthage (397), and the ecumenical council of Florence (1438) all reaffirmed the canon issued by the Council of Rome.
Nick01 In Councils of Hippo and Carthage the Catholic Church defined which books made it into the New Testament and which didn't. The canon of the Bible was not settled in the first years of the Church. It was settled only after repeated discussions, and the final listing was determined by Catholic bishops!!
Jesus Christ—as a matter of history–established a Church, not a book, to be the foundation of the Christian Faith! No other then the Catholic Church can trace their linage back to Peter thus Jesus!
Nick01 HISTORICAL FACT: Sola Scriptural did not appear until the Great PROTEST sixteen hundred years after Jesus! The "De-Formers" introduced the TEACHING; Sola Scriptural is a MAN MADE TRADITION!
No. Trent came up with its own canon, but there was widespread agreement about the canon of Scripture long before then. Obviously, the Apostolic Fathers quoted from the NT documents during the second century. Athanasius had a 27 book NT canon by the 360s, and his OT canon, while not identical to the Protestant canon, is not identical to the RCC canon either. He was not a Roman bishop. So your argument at this point is so loaded with important caveats as to mean very little.
I reply: Trent came AFTER the Gutenberg bible, this bible had 72 Books the same books in the Canon established by the BISHOPS at the Council of Rome!
Nick01 Trent simply reaffirmed the historic canon of the Bible after it had been challenged by Protestants. The first council recorded as dealing with the canon was the Council of Rome, which convened in A.D. 382 under Pope Damascus. It was later councils, such as Hippo (393) and Carthage (397), and the ecumenical council of Florence (1438) all reaffirmed the canon issued by the Council of Rome.
Nick01 In Councils of Hippo and Carthage the Catholic Church defined which books made it into the New Testament and which didn't. The canon of the Bible was not settled in the first years of the Church. It was settled only after repeated discussions, and the final listing was determined by Catholic bishops!!
Jesus Christ—as a matter of history–established a Church, not a book, to be the foundation of the Christian Faith! No other then the Catholic Church can trace their linage back to Peter thus Jesus!
Nick01 HISTORICAL FACT: Sola Scriptural did not appear until the Great PROTEST sixteen hundred years after Jesus! The "De-Formers" introduced the TEACHING; Sola Scriptural is a MAN MADE TRADITION!
Brother Dogknox.
As son as Jesus said
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
This is salvation by faith alone has begun
Then when Jesus said branch can't bear fruit of itself. The teaching salvation by faith alone confirm.
Don't believe catholic teaching brother, they try to elevated human as a God. they said salvation by faith and work, and work is more like ritual. baptism sacrament, Eucharist sacrament. so make people believe without the help of the RCC impossible to be save.
It is lie brother. only Jesus deserve to be elevated and praise. Catholic subtly rob the Glory of God. It not done in frankly way so you not aware, It is trap.
Thank you for your post.... BUT...
Read it again>>> For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jackson123 Believing in Jesus means BELIEVING the words of Jesus!!! You reject the words of Jesus and die!
John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
Jackson123 To believe in "Scriptures ALONE": You MUST reject the words of Jesus (above) about rejecting his words!
Jesus never ever taught salvation by "Scriptures ALONE"!
The one who rejects Jesus does not accept his words!!
Jackson123 The words of Jesus you MUST REJECT..
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
Jackson123 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jackson123 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
The Early Church father ate the flesh of Jesus in the form of bread! They are CHRISTIANS they "Believe IN Jesus!"
Read it again>>> For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jackson123 Believing in Jesus means BELIEVING the words of Jesus!!! You reject the words of Jesus and die!
John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
Jackson123 To believe in "Scriptures ALONE": You MUST reject the words of Jesus (above) about rejecting his words!
Jesus never ever taught salvation by "Scriptures ALONE"!
The one who rejects Jesus does not accept his words!!
Jackson123 The words of Jesus you MUST REJECT..
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
Jackson123 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jackson123 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
The Early Church father ate the flesh of Jesus in the form of bread! They are CHRISTIANS they "Believe IN Jesus!"
Brother Dogknox.
Scripture alone as a foundation in my believe in Jesus.
I don't understand why you said to believe in scripture must reject this verse:
John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
It is in the scripture. Believe scripture mean believe what ever in the scripture include that verse.
I give you example what against the scripture:
Look, Pope decide to reduce time in purgatory, And God obey the Pope.
God obey the Pope? It is coup. replace God position, inverted/antichrist.
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[TD="width: 629"]Last Updated: Thursday, 6 December 2007, 16:44 GMT
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[TD="colspan: 3"]Pope approves Lourdes indulgences
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Pope Benedict XVI has authorised special indulgences to mark the 150th anniversary of the Virgin Mary's reputed appearance at Lourdes.Catholics visiting the site within a year of 8 December will be able to receive an indulgence, which the Church teaches can reduce time in purgatory.
Lourdes has drawn pilgrims since Mary was said to have appeared in 1858 to shepherdess Bernadette Soubirous.
The waters of the French shrine are said to have miraculous healing powers.
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[TD="class: sibtbg"]INDULGENCES AND PURGATORY
A plenary indulgence offers full pardon of the temporal punishment (suffering in this life or the next) due to sins already forgiven in confession
Purgatory is a kind of spiritual waiting room - for people who do not go directly to paradise or hell after death - to purify souls of residual sin before they enter heaven
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The Pope is expected to visit the shrine next year.
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Again thank you for your reply..
Your words.... I don't understand why you said to believe in scripture must reject this verse: for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words
YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND??!!!
Jackson123 Because the SCRIPTURES tell you.... Jesus tells you; "You MUST eat his FLESH to have eternal life!"
................................>>>>>> You reject the scriptures!<<<<<<<<................................
The scriptures tell you; "To have eternal life you MUST believe Jesus"!
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.The scriptures tell you; "Jesus will send the Holy Spirit to be with his church FOREVER!"
You reject the words of Jesus.. You DO NOT believe in "Scriptures ALONE"! NO....
No scriptures say "The Holy Spirit will abandon Jesus' Church" "FOREVER WITH" is what they say!
No scriptures say "Jesus will loose his church!" NO scriptures say "The Holy Spirit will lead Jesus' church into error!"
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—
No scriptures say "The Church Jesus established will need to be restored!"
Jackson123 You MUST reject the scriptures... "Jesus' words" for TEACHINGS of Men they teach "Jesus' church fell"!
You MUST reject the scriptures... "Jesus' words" for TEACHINGS of Men, they teach "Jesus' Church needs to be restored"!
You MUST reject the scriptures... "Jesus' words" for TEACHINGS of Men, they teach "Satan took Jesus' church and his church needs to be restored"!
Jackson123 THE WORDS OF JESUS 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
The scriptures tell you... "Jesus is ALWAYS with his Church, to the end of time"! You say "MAN MUST RESTORE Jesus' Church!" You reject the scriptures, Jesus words!
You MUST reject the scriptures... "Jesus' words" for the TEACHINGS of Men, they teach; "Jesus flesh is NOT real food"!
Jackson123 You MUST reject the scriptures... "Jesus' words" for the TEACHINGS of Men, they teach; "Jesus' flesh is symbolic food, it is NOT real food"!
52 Then the Jews AND Jackson123 began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
The Early Church fathers "Ate the flesh of Jesus in the form of bread" They believe the words of Jesus they are all CATHOLICS!
You MUST reject the scriptures... "Jesus' words" for TEACHINGS of Men, they teach "The Holy Spirit lead Jesus' Church into error"! THINK: They MUST teach the Church fell into error otherwise they have no need to RESTORE Jesus' Holy Church!!!
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—
Jackson123 You believe the TEACHING of Men! (Church failed) (Jesus is NOT always with his church) (Holy Spirit is NOT FOREVER with the Church) (Jesus' flesh is NOT real food) etc
FACT: You reject the words of Jesus as LIES!
If you accepted the words of Jesus as truth you would have to be CATHOLIC!!
Your words.... I don't understand why you said to believe in scripture must reject this verse: for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words
YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND??!!!
Jackson123 Because the SCRIPTURES tell you.... Jesus tells you; "You MUST eat his FLESH to have eternal life!"
................................>>>>>> You reject the scriptures!<<<<<<<<................................
The scriptures tell you; "To have eternal life you MUST believe Jesus"!
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.The scriptures tell you; "Jesus will send the Holy Spirit to be with his church FOREVER!"
You reject the words of Jesus.. You DO NOT believe in "Scriptures ALONE"! NO....
No scriptures say "The Holy Spirit will abandon Jesus' Church" "FOREVER WITH" is what they say!
No scriptures say "Jesus will loose his church!" NO scriptures say "The Holy Spirit will lead Jesus' church into error!"
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—
No scriptures say "The Church Jesus established will need to be restored!"
Jackson123 You MUST reject the scriptures... "Jesus' words" for TEACHINGS of Men they teach "Jesus' church fell"!
You MUST reject the scriptures... "Jesus' words" for TEACHINGS of Men, they teach "Jesus' Church needs to be restored"!
You MUST reject the scriptures... "Jesus' words" for TEACHINGS of Men, they teach "Satan took Jesus' church and his church needs to be restored"!
Jackson123 THE WORDS OF JESUS 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
The scriptures tell you... "Jesus is ALWAYS with his Church, to the end of time"! You say "MAN MUST RESTORE Jesus' Church!" You reject the scriptures, Jesus words!
You MUST reject the scriptures... "Jesus' words" for the TEACHINGS of Men, they teach; "Jesus flesh is NOT real food"!
Jackson123 You MUST reject the scriptures... "Jesus' words" for the TEACHINGS of Men, they teach; "Jesus' flesh is symbolic food, it is NOT real food"!
52 Then the Jews AND Jackson123 began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
The Early Church fathers "Ate the flesh of Jesus in the form of bread" They believe the words of Jesus they are all CATHOLICS!
You MUST reject the scriptures... "Jesus' words" for TEACHINGS of Men, they teach "The Holy Spirit lead Jesus' Church into error"! THINK: They MUST teach the Church fell into error otherwise they have no need to RESTORE Jesus' Holy Church!!!
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—
Jackson123 You believe the TEACHING of Men! (Church failed) (Jesus is NOT always with his church) (Holy Spirit is NOT FOREVER with the Church) (Jesus' flesh is NOT real food) etc
FACT: You reject the words of Jesus as LIES!
If you accepted the words of Jesus as truth you would have to be CATHOLIC!!