The Intermediate State & Heaven

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Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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#21
Absent from the body...

That is an expression Paul used more than once in different situations. Was he in heaven when he made this comment?

1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

Nope!
Balderdash! In 1 Cor 5:3 he is not absent from the body; he is absent from Corinth. He says he is present in Corinth "in the spirit."


3 For I verily, being absent in body but present in spirit, have already as though I were present judged him that hath so wrought this thing, 4 in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,

There is nothing about death here at all. I does raise questions about existence by the spirit in a place where one's body is not. There is nothing about his spirit being dormant in Corinth. This would be against any doctrine of "soul sleep."
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
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#22
There is nowhere in Scripture where Heaven is referred to as God's house
BDAG Greek Lexicon does not agree with you. The expression of God's oikia or the Father's oikia, so far as I have been able to find, only occurs one time in all of scripture, and that one time is in John 4:1-3 where it can refer to nothing but Heaven, the place of the Father's abode.

All the other instances I have found where God's house is mentioned, the expression is oikos, not oikia.


it's always the temple. Also, in John 14 Jesus said,

KJV-Butchered Version, based on trying to make "My Father's oikos," cleansed by Christ the ID of John 14's oikia. In Herod's Temple are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you in Herod's Temple, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am in Herod's Temple, there in Herod's Temple ye may be also. (Joh 14:1 KJV)
Absurd. It cannot be Herod's Temple; Heaven is the only reasonable identification of the Father's oikia here. For Heaven is where He went.

What's interesting is that Jesus said, 'I go to prepare a place for you.' He said this to the disciples. He didn't say, I go to prepare a place for everyone who will ever believe. This statement was given to the disciples, it isn't general statement of the Christian faith. So many Chrsitians grab this verse and say, 'see, we're going to Heaven,' yet, it seems they forget what Jesus had just said.
The Children of God are addressed, not just the apostles. Al Christians are Christ's disciples, though not apostles.

31 When therefore he was gone out, Jesus saith, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him; 32 and God shall glorify him in himself, and straightway shall he glorify him. 33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come;
[The ye who cannot come is not just apostles.]
so now I say unto you [little children]. 34 A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; even as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples [not just apostles], if ye have love one to another.

36 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow afterwards. 37 Peter saith unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee even now? I will lay down my life for thee. 38 Jesus answereth, Wilt thou lay down thy life for me? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice. 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me.
[Not just apostles, but all disciples must believe in Him -- He is YHWH as the Father is, & that belief is essential] 2 In my Father’s house are many dwellings; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. [little children, disciples] 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.[little children, disciples, not just apostles]

It is absurd to postulate a 2nd coming of Christ only for apostles; that never happened.


So,[sic, the irrational "so"]
Jesus tells them [little children, disciples, not just apostles] that they cannot go where He is going.
Then He tells them [little children, apostles] that there are many dwelling places in His Father's house [oikia] and tells them that He is going to prepare a place for them [little children, disciples, not just apostles] and He will return again so that where He is [Heaven, not Herod's Temple] they may be also. The only logical deduction from this is that the place He prepares for them is being brought back with Him.
The text says nothing about Him bringing the Father's oikia anywhere. He is to receive the little children/ disciples to Himself; they are not to receive Him to themselves.

We know from 1 Thes 4 that when He comes, he takes up the believers (not just apostles) to a meeting in the air with Himself. There is nothing there about Him coming down to earth. John 14 is clearly Christ coming to receive the disciples -- nothing about delivering the Father's oikia to the disciples.

And, that's exactly what we see in Revelation, the New Jerusalem descending from God out of Heaven when Christ returns.
Rev says nothing about the New Jerusalem coming down when Christ returns. In Rev 19 Christ returns with the army of heavens (evidently the believers from Heaven) and the 1000 year millennium follows. At the end of the Millennium there is a rebellion which Christ puts down (not the 2nd coming), and the New Jerusalem descends to earth -- no 2nd coming with it. The coming of the New Jerusalem placed after the 1000 years following the coming of Christ.

And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. 15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.


21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: 4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. 5 And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. 6 And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.


9 And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, who were laden with the seven last plagues; and he spake with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the wife of the Lamb. 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

No Return of Christ is mentioned in conjunction with this. However, it is possible that such does happen, if Christ left a representative on the Throne on Earth during the Millennium (speculation). But you also have to contend with the possibility that the New Jerusalem is itself the Church (considering the people of a city to be the city in a sense) & then the Church comes down out of Heaven.

But whatever the case may be, aside from speculations, there is nothing about the transport of any oikia of God or the Father's oikia to earth at the 2nd coming in the Bible.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
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#23
John starts out unfortunately by using gloss from Strong's concordance apparently,
Then he goesAlice In Wonderland trying to make
rewards in scripture = to mansions/dwellings
of John 14.

First notice that He goes to the Father to prepare the mansions.

The word here is...

G3438
μονή
monē
mon-ay'
From G3306; a staying, that is, residence (the act or the place): - abode, mansion.
Strong's Concordance is not the best tool for defining Bible words. The list of how the KJV translated is misleading. The term does not mean mansions.

And what does He do when He returns...

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
He returns with the rewards that He has prepared (the mansions, if you will) and gives them to everyone according to their works...
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
We don't go there, He comes back here.
You gave no proof of that whatsoever. In 1 Thes 4, the believers are taken up to a meeting in the air, Christ does not then return to earth in the text.

The dwelling places are for disciples, all who are called God's children. Rewards are special matters not automatically given persons for believing. Salvation is a free gift. Rewards are earned. There is nothing about any dwelling places earned. It is that Christ wants His disciples to be with Him. That is their destiny.

The doctrine of rewards is irrelevant.

Now who are you talking about when you refer to Christ? I refer to YHWH, the 2nd person of the Trinity. Whom do you talk about? Does that person actually exist? Can you confess that Jesus Christ is YHWH, YHWH become man with human flesh?
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
#24
I agree, and there is something I believe is missed because of the English translation.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (2Co 5:6 KJV)

I think many misunderstand this because the equate, "home in the body" with idea of Paul's earlier mention of "this tabernacle" and "earthly house." However, the Greek words translated, absent and present, suggest another meaning. Paul says 'while we are at home in the body,' I think many understand this as their spirit is in their body (they are alive). However, the Greek word translated "Home" means to be among one own people.
Θαρροῦντες οὖν πάντοτε καὶ εἰδότες ὅτι ἐνδημοῦντες ἐν τῷ σώματι ἐκδημοῦμεν ἀπὸ τοῦ κυρίου· 7 διὰ πίστεως γὰρ περιπατοῦμεν, οὐ διὰ εἴδους· 8 θαρροῦμεν δὲ καὶ εὐδοκοῦμεν μᾶλλον ἐκδημῆσαι ἐκ τοῦ σώματος καὶ ἐνδημῆσαι πρὸς τὸν κύριον.

BDAG Lexicon:


ἐνδημέω1 aor. ἐνεδήμησα (ἔνδημος ‘at home’; Lysias 9, 5; Plut., Gen. Socr. 6, 578e; ins, pap; Jos., Ant. 3, 262)
to be in a familiar place, to be at home, in our lit. only fig. (Chariton 6, 3, 2 the god Eros ἐνδεδήμηκεν εἰς τ. ἐμὴν ψυχήν)

ἐ. ἐν τῷ σώματι
be at home in the body=phys. life 2 Cor 5:6;

ἐ. πρὸς τὸν κύριον
be at home w. the Lord of the afterlife in heaven after departure fr. the body vs. 8. Abs. in the same sense
(opposite to ἐκδημεῖν or ἀποδημεῖν, q.v., as vss. 6 and 8)
vs. 9.


Soma (body) does not here refer to the Body of Christ, all Christians. Christians do not leave the Body of Christ (2 John 2).

said about the resurrection, that he might be "overclothed" with his house from Heaven.
Paul is not talking about going to be with Christ as a spirit, but rather he is talking about the resurrection.
Yes, he speaks of being with Christ as a spirit & obtaining clothing for before the resurrection. This habitation/house/clothing is made by God in Heaven. At the resurrection a body is not brought down from heaven. The body which was buried in the ground is raised & transformed to be like Christ's raised body.

BTW, Do you believe that the Body of Christ which was crucified on the cross and placed in a tomb, was brought back to life & transformed? Was Christ raised from the dead?

Who are we talking about? Do we speak the Lord Jesus who is YHWH, 2nd person of the Trinity, God become man having a body of flesh? Or do you speak of someone else?
 
May 2, 2014
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#25
Θαρροῦντες οὖν πάντοτε καὶ εἰδότες ὅτι ἐνδημοῦντες ἐν τῷ σώματι ἐκδημοῦμεν ἀπὸ τοῦ κυρίου· 7 διὰ πίστεως γὰρ περιπατοῦμεν, οὐ διὰ εἴδους· 8 θαρροῦμεν δὲ καὶ εὐδοκοῦμεν μᾶλλον ἐκδημῆσαι ἐκ τοῦ σώματος καὶ ἐνδημῆσαι πρὸς τὸν κύριον.

BDAG Lexicon:


ἐνδημέω1 aor. ἐνεδήμησα (ἔνδημος ‘at home’; Lysias 9, 5; Plut., Gen. Socr. 6, 578e; ins, pap; Jos., Ant. 3, 262)
to be in a familiar place, to be at home, in our lit. only fig. (Chariton 6, 3, 2 the god Eros ἐνδεδήμηκεν εἰς τ. ἐμὴν ψυχήν)

ἐ. ἐν τῷ σώματι
be at home in the body=phys. life 2 Cor 5:6;

ἐ. πρὸς τὸν κύριον
be at home w. the Lord of the afterlife in heaven after departure fr. the body vs. 8. Abs. in the same sense
(opposite to ἐκδημεῖν or ἀποδημεῖν, q.v., as vss. 6 and 8)
vs. 9.


Soma (body) does not here refer to the Body of Christ, all Christians. Christians do not leave the Body of Christ (2 John 2).



Yes, he speaks of being with Christ as a spirit & obtaining clothing for before the resurrection. This habitation/house/clothing is made by God in Heaven. At the resurrection a body is not brought down from heaven. The body which was buried in the ground is raised & transformed to be like Christ's raised body.

BTW, Do you believe that the Body of Christ which was crucified on the cross and placed in a tomb, was brought back to life & transformed? Was Christ raised from the dead?

Who are we talking about? Do we speak the Lord Jesus who is YHWH, 2nd person of the Trinity, God become man having a body of flesh? Or do you speak of someone else?
I'm not sure how any of this addresses what I said. I also submit that Paul did not expect to be with Christ as a spirit. Paul was a Pharisee and was well versed in the OT. The OT is absolutely clear that man is dust, not a spirit. The Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead, they didn't believe in a spirit man.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with asking about the body, of course it's the body that was buried in the ground, that what what resurrection is. If it was a different body it would reincarnation not resurrection.
 
Nov 30, 2012
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#26
I'm not sure how any of this addresses what I said. I also submit that Paul did not expect to be with Christ as a spirit. Paul was a Pharisee and was well versed in the OT. The OT is absolutely clear that man is dust, not a spirit. The Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead, they didn't believe in a spirit man.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with asking about the body, of course it's the body that was buried in the ground, that what what resurrection is. If it was a different body it would reincarnation not resurrection.
Explain Christ's comment that God is, "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Jesus stressed the present tense. He then continues that "God is a God of the living, not of the dead." So, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were still alive at the time of Christ, even though they had suffered a fleshly death.
 
May 2, 2014
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#27
Θαρροῦντες οὖν πάντοτε καὶ εἰδότες ὅτι ἐνδημοῦντες ἐν τῷ σώματι ἐκδημοῦμεν ἀπὸ τοῦ κυρίου· 7 διὰ πίστεως γὰρ περιπατοῦμεν, οὐ διὰ εἴδους· 8 θαρροῦμεν δὲ καὶ εὐδοκοῦμεν μᾶλλον ἐκδημῆσαι ἐκ τοῦ σώματος καὶ ἐνδημῆσαι πρὸς τὸν κύριον.

BDAG Lexicon:


ἐνδημέω1 aor. ἐνεδήμησα (ἔνδημος ‘at home’; Lysias 9, 5; Plut., Gen. Socr. 6, 578e; ins, pap; Jos., Ant. 3, 262)
to be in a familiar place, to be at home, in our lit. only fig. (Chariton 6, 3, 2 the god Eros ἐνδεδήμηκεν εἰς τ. ἐμὴν ψυχήν)

ἐ. ἐν τῷ σώματι
be at home in the body=phys. life 2 Cor 5:6;

ἐ. πρὸς τὸν κύριον
be at home w. the Lord of the afterlife in heaven after departure fr. the body vs. 8. Abs. in the same sense
(opposite to ἐκδημεῖν or ἀποδημεῖν, q.v., as vss. 6 and 8)
vs. 9.


Soma (body) does not here refer to the Body of Christ, all Christians. Christians do not leave the Body of Christ (2 John 2).



Yes, he speaks of being with Christ as a spirit & obtaining clothing for before the resurrection. This habitation/house/clothing is made by God in Heaven. At the resurrection a body is not brought down from heaven. The body which was buried in the ground is raised & transformed to be like Christ's raised body.

BTW, Do you believe that the Body of Christ which was crucified on the cross and placed in a tomb, was brought back to life & transformed? Was Christ raised from the dead?

Who are we talking about? Do we speak the Lord Jesus who is YHWH, 2nd person of the Trinity, God become man having a body of flesh? Or do you speak of someone else?

OK, you go with BDAG, I'll go with Scripture.
 
May 2, 2014
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#28
Explain Christ's comment that God is, "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Jesus stressed the present tense. He then continues that "God is a God of the living, not of the dead." So, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were still alive at the time of Christ, even though they had suffered a fleshly death.
Hi ThomistColin,

That is the typical understanding of the passage, however, upon closer look I think we can draw a different conclusion. The first thing to note is that Jesus applied this passage to the resurrection, not to the current state of those men.

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Mat 22:29-32 KJV)

25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
(Mar 12:25-27 KJV)


In the very passage Jesus acknowledges that they are dead. Also notice that the living and the dead are each a class of people. God is the God of the believers, they will have eternal life (the living), He is not the God of those who reject Him who will be cast into the fire (the dead).

However, we have to keep in mind that his is all from God's perspective, not ours. Notice Jesus words,

36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. (Luk 20:36-38 KJV)

Jesus tells us this is from God's perspective as Luke records, "for all life unto Him."



All of these passages apply the statement to the resurrection of the dead, not the current state of these men. They also acknowledge that they are dead now when they refer to the resurrection of the dead.
 
May 2, 2014
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#29
BDAG Greek Lexicon does not agree with you. The expression of God's oikia or the Father's oikia, so far as I have been able to find, only occurs one time in all of scripture, and that one time is in John 4:1-3 where it can refer to nothing but Heaven, the place of the Father's abode.

All the other instances I have found where God's house is mentioned, the expression is oikos, not oikia.
Just because He went to Heaven doesn't necessitate that "My Father's house" is Heaven. There is nothing in the context that would lead the disciples to thing He meant the Father's house is Heaven. As I've pointed out He had already made reference to His Father's house in the temple and the disciples remembered the OT Scriptures.




Absurd. It cannot be Herod's Temple; Heaven is the only reasonable identification of the Father's oikia here. For Heaven is where He went.
As I said before, both words mean a dwelling place, and one stem from the other, so this point is irrelevant.



The Children of God are addressed, not just the apostles. Al Christians are Christ's disciples, though not apostles.

31 When therefore he was gone out, Jesus saith, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him; 32 and God shall glorify him in himself, and straightway shall he glorify him. 33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come;
[The ye who cannot come is not just apostles.]
so now I say unto you [little children]. 34 A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; even as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples [not just apostles], if ye have love one to another.

36 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow afterwards. 37 Peter saith unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee even now? I will lay down my life for thee. 38 Jesus answereth, Wilt thou lay down thy life for me? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice. 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me.
[Not just apostles, but all disciples must believe in Him -- He is YHWH as the Father is, & that belief is essential] 2 In my Father’s house are many dwellings; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. [little children, disciples] 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.[little children, disciples, not just apostles]

It is absurd to postulate a 2nd coming of Christ only for apostles; that never happened.


I didn't postulate any such thing. It's also irrelevant that all Christians are disciples, Jesus was still only talking to those who were there with Him. He said "you," not all people who will ever believe. Context is important. Just because a statement is made to Christians in the Scriptures doesn't mean it's universally applicable. This passage was made to Christians also, would you apply this universally to all Christians?

KJV 1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? {divisions: or, factions} {as men: Gr. according to man?}
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? (1Co 3:1-4 KJV)

This was written to Christians, does it get universally applied?



The text says nothing about Him bringing the Father's oikia anywhere. He is to receive the little children/ disciples to Himself; they are not to receive Him to themselves.
Read the passage, He;s coming back so they can be with Him.

We know from 1 Thes 4 that when He comes, he takes up the believers (not just apostles) to a meeting in the air with Himself. There is nothing there about Him coming down to earth. John 14 is clearly Christ coming to receive the disciples -- nothing about delivering the Father's oikia to the disciples.
Just because it's not mentioned in a certain passage doesn't mean it isn't going to happen. Revelation tells us that the new Jerusalem comes down out of Heaven. Now, that could be literal or it could be an allegory for the restored Jerusalem on earth which is what I think it is. I believe what Jesus is referring to In John 14 is their service in the kingdom. Revelation says that the believers will be priests and kings. What do priests do other than serve God and intercede for the people? Those believers will need places to stay when they go up to serve the Lord, thus the many dwelling places in "My Father's house." No, in John 14 Jesus wasn't saying He was going to the temple, but He did make the analogy that where He was going was like the temple.



Rev says nothing about the New Jerusalem coming down when Christ returns. In Rev 19 Christ returns with the army of heavens (evidently the believers from Heaven) and the 1000 year millennium follows. At the end of the Millennium there is a rebellion which Christ puts down (not the 2nd coming), and the New Jerusalem descends to earth -- no 2nd coming with it. The coming of the New Jerusalem placed after the 1000 years following the coming of Christ.

And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. 15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.


21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: 4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. 5 And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. 6 And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.


9 And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, who were laden with the seven last plagues; and he spake with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the wife of the Lamb. 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

No Return of Christ is mentioned in conjunction with this. However, it is possible that such does happen, if Christ left a representative on the Throne on Earth during the Millennium (speculation). But you also have to contend with the possibility that the New Jerusalem is itself the Church (considering the people of a city to be the city in a sense) & then the Church comes down out of Heaven.

But whatever the case may be, aside from speculations, there is nothing about the transport of any oikia of God or the Father's oikia to earth at the 2nd coming in the Bible.
I wasn't giving a timeline, just a series of events. The point is that there will be priests in the kingdom who serve God and they will need places to stay during that service, the the many dwelling places.
 
May 2, 2014
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#30
Then you have to throw out 1 Thes 4 & John 14 from your Bible, as well as 2 Cor 5. It is very Biblical.
Not at all. They say nothing about going to heaven. 1 Thess speaks of meeting the Lord in air. John 14 doesn't say anything about people going anywhere, actually, Jesus had just told them they can't go. And, there's nothing in 2 Cor 5 about going to Heaven. I'm not sure why you posted these.



First the text does not say that "spirit" = God's breath at all. You make that one up. If you wish to regard the spirit of man as God's creation, you could call it "God's spirit," but that would be misleading.

God's residence is in Heaven. So if you would argue from this text in Ecclesiasticus (man reasoning under the sun) then the Spirit returns to God whose residence is Heaven.
But it does. If you look up the words Ruach means literally means breath and metaphorically spirit. So, it is literally God’s breath that animates man. The man is made of dust. Neshamah and Ruach are used interchangeably and mean breath. In Gen 2:7 we see that creation of man.
[SUP]7[/SUP] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

Whatever man is he consists of the dust of the earth. God them breathed into the man the breath (Neshamah) of life and man became something. He became a living soul. From this we learn that a living soul is comprised of two parts, a body of dust and the breath of life, which is God’s breath.
God told Adam what would happen.
[SUP]19[/SUP] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen 3:19 KJV)
Man is dust, not a spirit.



Yes, Scripture clearly implies that Christians go to Heaven when they die. In context the implication of 2 Cor 5 is that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

6 Being thereof
re always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord 7 (for we walk by faith, not by sight); 8 we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord. 9 Wherefore also we make it our aim, whether at home or absent, to be well-pleasing unto him. 10 For we must all be made manifest before the judgment-seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

The contrast is between being at home in the body & thus absent from the Lord. The converse is to be out of the body & present with the Lord. And we know that Christ is now in Heaven.
The problem is this assumes dualism, that man is a spirit. The Scriptures don’t support that idea. Man is dust and when he dies he returns to dust. You see, I believe you’re bringing your theology to the text. The Scriptures don’t imply that Christians go to Heaven.
[SUP]5[/SUP] For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. (Ecc 9:5 NKJ)
[SUP]18[/SUP] For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth. (Isa 38:18 NKJ)
[SUP]5[/SUP] For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks? (Psa 6:5 NKJ)
[SUP]17[/SUP] The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor any who go down into silence. (Psa 115:17 NKJ)
This passage says that in death there is no remembrance of God. These passages are not implying anything, they state it clearly. The Scriptures state that the dead, know nothing, have no remembrance of God, do not praise God and cannot hope for His truth.

This has nothing to do with Greek philosophy or Gnosticism. This is a straw-man argument. The teaching is not that the body is evil because it is a body, nor that it is not a normal part of man, nor that man is not normally a body-spirit unity. The teaching is that it is appointed to man once to die, and that death means separation of body from spirit, a temporary separation. And whether the spirit is conscious in Christ's presence or dormant (as you seem to hold), that would not indicate anything good or bad about the body.
There’s more to Gnosticism or Greek Philosophy that just that. The idea of the dead being conscious and ascending into the heavens comes from Plato and Greek Philosophy, these ideas are also part of the Gnostic belief system.
 
May 2, 2014
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They also have to ignore this...

Luk 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Many lop this phrase right off of the verse. Let's drop down a couple...

Luk 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

It says that when HE RETURNED He called the servants to Him...

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

and then He begins to hand out rewards...

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

First notice that He goes to the Father to prepare the mansions.

The word here is...

G3438
μονή
monē
mon-ay'
From G3306; a staying, that is, residence (the act or the place): - abode, mansion.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What is Christ doing here in I Ths 4? He is returning to the earth...

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

And what does He do when He returns...

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

He returns with the rewards that He has prepared (the mansions, if you will) and gives them to everyone according to their works...

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

We don't go there, He comes back here.
I agree, I think we have different idea of the mansions but we agree on pretty much all of it.
 
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Powemm

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#32
So what about the part that says.. even the heavens can not contain him.. so alligorically.. gods home is not heaven since even heaven can not contain him ... So what's after heaven?
 
May 2, 2014
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#33
So what about the part that says.. even the heavens can not contain him.. so alligorically.. gods home is not heaven since even heaven can not contain him ... So what's after heaven?
That statement may be hyperbole.
 
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Powemm

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#34
Im going to be honest... what is hyperbole... I know this conversation is intellectually above me lol.. but still its fascinating to think about how big god really is.. thank you guys for being so nice to let me peek in amd ask... im enjoying the read..
 
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Powemm

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#35
hy·per·bo·le

hīˈpərbəlē/

noun

exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

No worries ") and I apologize if I stepped on toes.. not my intent at all.. I enjoy talking to people smarter than me... asking questions.. thank you for your patience with me in it. God bless
 

Atwood

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May 1, 2014
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#36
to be with Christ
First of all, who is this Christ to which you refer? Paul expected to be with YHWH, God the Son, the 2nd person of the trinity; God who became a man with flesh & blood, who died on the cross to pay for our sins, was buried & raised from the dead.

Is that the Christ to which you refer? Don't duck the question, Butch.

I also submit that Paul did not expect to be with Christ as a spirit.


That's what you say.
This is what God's Word says:

1 Cor 6:
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit."


1 Cor 5:
For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. 2 For verily in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our habitation which is from heaven: 3 if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For indeed we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened; not for that we would be unclothed, but that we would be clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that wrought us for this very thing is God, who gave unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord 7 (for we walk by faith, not by sight); 8 we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord. 9 Wherefore also we make it our aim, whether at home or absent, to be well-pleasing unto him. 10 For we must all be made manifest before the judgment-seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

Paul . . . was well versed in the OT. The OT is absolutely clear that man is dust, not a spirit.
So also the woman that is unmarried and the virgin is careful for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit:


The Pharisees. . . didn't believe in a spirit man.
Let's see the proof of that one.
But it is irrelevant, as Paul the prophet got his teaching from God. The Pharisees followed human tradition, negating scripture & were taken to task for this by the Lord Jesus.

The OT is absolutely clear that man is dust, not a spirit.


Have you read the OT? The Bible, OT & NT are absolutely clear that man has a body & a spirit. Man is dust, a being characterized by dust, but not just dust.

Zech:
Thus
saith Jehovah, who stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him:



Mal:
15 And did he not make one, although he had the residue of the Spirit? And wherefore one? He sought a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. 16 For I hate putting away, saith Jehovah, the God of Israel, and him that covereth his garment with violence, saith Jehovah of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.

cf. Job 32:8

there is a spirit in man,
And the breath of the Almighty giveth them understanding.


But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him; for Jehovah thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as at this day.


I will speak in the anguish of my spirit;

Ps 31 Into thy hand I commend my spirit:


Blessed is the man unto whom Jehovah imputeth not iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no guile.-
Jehovah is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart,

And saveth such as are of a contrite spirit.


I commune with mine own heart;
And my spirit maketh diligent search.
7 Will the Lord cast off for ever?


9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee earnestly:


5 Thus saith God Jehovah, he that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; he that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:


15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite. 16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth; for the spirit would faint before me, and the souls that I have made.


41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.


50 And Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit.


1 For who among men knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of the man, which is in him? even so the things of God none knoweth, save the Spirit of God.


7:1 Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

James 2 "the body apart from the spirit is dead,"
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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#37
OK, you go with BDAG, I'll go with Scripture.
Question is, What do you go with Butch? Certainly not Scripture.
I go with scripture & YHWH the Son, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, the Lord Jesus; God Who became a man with flesh & blood; who died for my sins & rose from the dead having a body of flesh & bone.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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#38
Thomist posted a proof text that physically dead saints from the OT were alive currently.

Explain Christ's comment that God is, "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Jesus stressed the present tense. He then continues that "God is a God of the living, not of the dead." So, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were still alive at the time of Christ, even though they had suffered a fleshly death.

Hi ThomistColin,
The first thing to note is that Jesus applied this passage to the resurrection, not to the current state of those men.
It must be noted that the Lord Jesus referred to present time, which is before the resurrection. His argument destroys the contention that death ends it all, which appears to be the Sadducean POV, from which they operated in opposition to the resurrection. So He addresses both issues. The present tense argument implies they are currently alive. But as their bodies were dead, they had to have spiritual existence.

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Mat 22:29-32 KJV)

Thus they have not perished making a resurrection impossible; they are currently alive.

In the very passage Jesus acknowledges that they are dead. Also notice that the living and the dead are each a class of people. God is the God of the believers, they will have eternal life (the living), He is not the God of those who reject Him who will be cast into the fire (the dead).
As a matter of fact he states that the dead are not dead, but living. For though there was no debate that their bodies were dead, their spirits were alive, and death had not ended it all. He doesn't say "will have" (future) but now, present tense. God is the God of the living; thus they were alive right then, though physically speaking dead. The context concerns life after death & resurrection, not spiritual death or the Lake of Fire.

However, we have to keep in mind that his is all from God's perspective, not ours.
The perspective is truth. The refutation is of the idea that death ends it all. Abraham is asserted to be currently alive, as also in the Parable in Luke of the rich man & Lazarus.

Notice Jesus words,
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. (Luk 20:36-38 KJV)
All indeed have life at that time in history to God, not to men, for men go by what they experience on earth; namely persons who used to live are in graves. But God is aware of all men, some in Hades, others in Paradise.
The two parts of the verse do not contradict:
1) He is the God of the living (thus Abraham lives presently);
and 2) all men are either in Hades or Paradise.

There is a death from man's POV & from God's.
The passage addresses both the present tense & the resurrection to come, assuring that there is life after death.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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#39
Just because He went to Heaven doesn't necessitate that "My Father's house" is Heaven. There is nothing in the context that would lead the disciples to thing He meant the Father's house is Heaven. As I've pointed out He had already made reference to His Father's house in the temple and the disciples remembered the OT Scriptures.
He says He is going away & that was to Heaven as we know, not a trip to Herod's temple. The context cannot refer to Herod's temple. The word for Father's House is (so far as I know) unique in scripture here, oikia, not oikos. But the earthly temple is the oikos of God, not the oikia in scripture.

Are you a Greek scholar or a Lexicon to claim what the words mean? The two words are different. The suffix -ia is a famous abstract noun suffix.

I didn't postulate any such thing. It's also irrelevant that all Christians are disciples, Jesus was still only talking to those who were there with Him.
He addresses disciples & my little children, which includes all Christians. You cannot limit it as the text does not. The idea that there would be a Coming Again just for a few apostles is nonsense. The context defines the "you." It is obvious that Christ's return became a blessed hope for all believers, which James 5 indicates they should take note of.

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? (1Co 3:1-4 KJV)
This was written to Christians, does it get universally applied?
Obviously that applies to persons who have established parties -- it doesn't address disciples or "my little children" in general.

Read the passage, He;s coming back so they can be with Him.
So that where He is [Heaven], they can be. That where I am, there you may be also.

Revelation tells us that the new Jerusalem comes down out of Heaven. Now, that could be literal or it could be an allegory for the restored Jerusalem on earth which is what I think it is.
If you want an allegory, you note that right after he is told to look at the New Jerusalem (from Heaven) what he is shown is the Church!

in John 14 Jesus wasn't saying He was going to the temple, but He did make the analogy that where He was going was like the temple.
He says that in My Father's oikia are many dwelling places. As it is not the Temple of Herod, nothing else fits aside from in Heaven, the place where God lives.

I wasn't giving a timeline, just a series of events. The point is that there will be priests in the kingdom who serve God and they will need places to stay during that service, the the many dwelling places.
But the Bible gives a time-line which rules out the New Jerusalem being brought to earth at Christ's return in Rev 19. A millennium ensues next.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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#40
So what about the part that says.. even the heavens can not contain him.. so alligorically.. gods home is not heaven since even heaven can not contain him ... So what's after heaven?
God is both immanent[FONT=arial, sans-serif] and transcendent. He is not confined to the universe (& Heaven, a place of His creation). He is not absent from the universe.

The error of pantheism might confine God to the universe.
The error of deism might confine God to what is outside the universe.

But God is omnipresent. Yet in His holiness, He also exists beyond all creation inaccessible; He is other than His creation.
[/FONT]