Everyone in the Bible Study room Downing Calvinism

[thecreationtutor]

Ok, so I don't think I perfectly agree with everything in Calvanistic theology, but I would hold to a more - neo-orthodoxy as I have heard it called, which is basically new-calvanistic view of scripture.

So bible study room, the endless debates we talk about it, and it's funny how so many are opposed yadda yadda yadda.

Ask 4 simple questions in the Bible study to them

Is man's will sovereign? answer no
Is man's will his hope? answer no
Is man's will fallen? answer yes
Is man's will a slave to sin answer yes

How is a non-sovereign, hopeless, fallen, will that is slave to sin going to come to the point of loving God on his own?

When it says men love darkness and do not come to the light, for their deeds show to be evil.

now I could care less about convincing someone, I think maturity in Christ comes to a seeing and savoring of God in His totality of all of His attributes - love, joy, peace, patience, longsuffering, mercy, all the way to Holiness, wrath, justice, and anger. Where you want to cast off self and embrace Him as He truly is in all his dangerously wild nature.


If we said the 2 main theological positions where Calvanism and Arminianism, which one has spawned the most heresies?

Hypercalvanism I would say is heresy but what else? Possibly Amish and Mennonite theology - Frozen chosen
Arminianism - pelagianism, semi-pelagianism, oneness Pentecostalism, rolling on the floor - false tongues, benny hinn, shakers and Quakers, dual baptism of water and Holy spirit for salvation. Turning OSAS into a license to sin, God and Satan are equals, God doesn't know things, mormonism, jehovah witnesses -- unsure about the last 2 might require more research. That God sent Jesus Christ for the happiness of man, Salvation is for the happiness of man, Health and wealth Gospel, Relational Gospel

not saying I am right either, or 100% correct just thoughts. I think it's funny that in the Bible study room you get treated with disdain, like it's people opinions that if you think man is corrupt, evil, and blind outside the Lord Jesus, and that God can do what He wants, your not fit for society.

Well, Lord willing, when hard times hit, and they have - I know God is Sovereign, and He is Good, and He will finish the good work in me, that I am the clay, and He is the potter...


As I write this, i think that people who are so crazed and incensed towards Calvinistic type theology,

think that those who hold to it rejoice in the fact that people going to hell.

That Calvanism is a get out of evangelism for free card(which they wont' evangelize either) - Ray comfort/kirk Cameron are probably the best evangelists I know, hmm I am pretty sure they hold a Calvinistic theology

They also belittle God to a "puppet master" because they can't fathom that God's thoughts don't conform to their thoughts and morality.


Look - I don't judge you if you hold to a different theology - I tend towards Calvanism. If you hold to Ephesians 4:1-6 major doctrines, I can work with that. I might not agree with your thinking, but you probably don't think like me in the first place - diversity in the body of Christ.

Now if your struggling in certain areas, and you don't have a solid foundation in certain things, I might challenge your beliefs as I am sure you would mine. I even go to a neo-charismatic church - I don't agree with everything, but they have the content, pastor doesn't quite fully align with the vineyard church - but I have learned unity and love on the Majors

 

[thecreationtutor]

The tapestry of love, truth, and beauty - in the person's, works, and perfections of God - Glory in them Sorry Glory bomb in my heart for who God is

 

[elf3]

Very well written. I also follow more of a reformed theology and have been called "Calvinist" which if fine. But, I don't follow Calvin...I follow God's Word.

 

[SeaBass]

Ask 4 simple questions in the Bible study to them

1)Is man's will sovereign? answer no
2)Is man's will his hope? answer no
3)Is man's will fallen? answer yes
4)Is man's will a slave to sin answer yes

(1) God has given man the gift of freewill and allows man to use that gift without God over-riding it.


(2) Jn 7:17; Rev 22:17 man must use his freewill to obey to be saved, without that will to obey and be saved man has no hope.
1 Jn 3:3 "And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." So man's hope plays a vital role in his own salvation.
Albert Barnes (had a Calvinist lean) says of 1 Jn 3:3 "Purifieth himself - Makes himself holy. That is, under the influence of this hope of being like the Saviour, he puts forth those efforts in struggling against sin, and in overcoming his evil propensities, which are necessary to make him pure. The apostle would not deny that for the success of these efforts we are dependent on divine aid; but he brings into view, as is often done in the sacred writings, the agency of man himself as essentially connected with success.."



(3) man can easily choose to do well as he can shoose to not do well, Gen 4:7



(4) if man's will is a slave to sin then man has no hope in being saed. Again, Jn 7:17 "If any man willeth to do his will, he shall know of the teaching..." Rev 22:17 "And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." So if man's will is a slave to sin them it would be impossible for any man to will to do God's will nor could any man will to drink of the water of life.

 

[notuptome]

I have this rather hefty book on Calvinism. I have read it and I have reached a conclusion about it.

Both John C and the other guy James A are taken out of context. The tulip is correct in a sense and can be supported by the bible. It becomes a problem when the points are taken to an extreme.

Does man have a free will? Yes. Does mans free will force man to choose? Yes. Can man save himself? No. Can man do anything to participate in his salvation? No.

When man fell in the garden man received the knowledge of good and evil. This knowledge makes it mans responsibility to choose between good and evil. In John 3:18 we see Jesus teaching that men choose to come to the light or reject the light because of their evil deeds. We also see in John 1 that the Light Who is Jesus lights every soul that comes into the world. If man rejects the light he is condemned to eternal darkness.

Like Joshua said men must choose whom they will serve.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[thecreationtutor]

I don't find the term free will in the Bible, a will - but like I said it's not free.

I am convinced - you can be convinced on your own accord - lets just act upon our convictions

 

[Jason0047]

God sets before a person the choice of life and death, blessing and cursing; And He desires them to choose life (Deuteronomy 30:19). God essentially told Cain that he had a free will choice to do either right or wrong (Genesis 4:7). Yes, a person is a slave to sin before they choose Jesus Christ. However, God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (Even though God knows that most people will not choose the Lord). For the moment you believe that man does not have a free will is the moment you regulate the Judgment as being a farce or a joke. In other words, man will be held accountable for what he does here on this Earth. There is a Great White Throne Judgment for unbelievers (or those who rejected God and His ways) and there will be the Judgment Seat of Christ (for believers).

So while your last question is true in the fact that man is a slave to sin, it is not true to ignore that man has a free will choice to accept Christ or to reject Christ (Whereby Christ will make them a slave to righteousness and not to sin by giving them a new heart with new desires) (i.e. to be born again spiritually).

 

[Jason0047]

Saying that we don't have a free will to accept Christ or to reject Christ is wrong. Make no mistake about it. God draws ALL men unto himself. Not just some.

John 12:32
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

 

[Jason0047]

Does Man Have Free Will?


Free will is defined in a few different ways. Here is one of it's definitions.

Free will (Noun) - The ability to act at one's own discretion.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/free%2Bwill


In fact, the origin of the word "will" is especially important to look at, too. It says this.

Will (Verb) - To wish, desire, want, to will, or to choose.

Online Etymology Dictionary


Now, how can you have the desire for anything or to choose differently if you did not have the free choice (i.e. free will) to choose or to not to choose in the first place?

Anyways, here is a list of the different types of Free Will that I hope you shall consider.

The Three different types of Free Will:

#1. Man's Limited Slave to Sin Type Free Will.
#2. Man's Limited Redemptive Type Free Will.
#3. God's Limited to Doing Only Good Type Free Will.​

And the hypothetical Free Will that does not exist for any being within our universe.
Which is...

#1. Ultimate or Absolute Free Will.


​

A. Man's Limited Slave to Sin Free Will:
All non-believers or people who have not genuinely accepted Christ as their Savior are slaves to sin in some way. Now, this does not mean that unbelievers are not capable of making limited free will choices that are correct or good for their own well being (like choosing not to murder, steal, fornicate, or do drugs). However, on the other hand they are limited in their free will in the sense that they are slaves to sin and will have some type of sin within their life that separates them from God. They are also incapable of repentance unless God grants it to them based upon His Foreknowledge of their free will choice if they will genuinely choose Him or not.


B. Man's Limited Redemptive Type Free Will:
All true believers in Christ or those who genuinely accept Jesus as their Savior are set free from being a slave to sin. This gives the believer a higher level of free will than that of a non-believer who is incapable of not sinning habitually. Now, does this mean that the believer does not have the free will to no longer sin anymore? No, most certainly not. It just means that they are no longer bound to sin anymore and are given a higher status of limited free will (or limited choices). They are also not forced against their free will to have a continued salvation or to still be a believer in Christ if they decide to change their minds, too. They still must choose each day to serve the Lord or to not serve the Lord. For a believer can forfeit his or her salvation if they do not live for Christ and become a new creature; Thus, showing that they were born again.


C. God's Limited to Doing Only Good Type Free Will:
God is limited to doing only that which is good and right. For God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. God is love and in Him is no evil. He is the very embodiment of all that is Holy, just, perfect, and good in this life. For there is none good but God. In other words, God is incapable of doing any type of evil or sin. He is perfect and good in every way. His limitation is that He can only do that which is good and right. God choose to bless someone or not bless someone and still be righteous and good in His decisions. For God's choices (His will) is centered only on doing good. This of course is a good limitation to have. So praise be to our God for being all that is loving and good.


D. Ultimate or Absolute Free Will:
No being in the universe has absolute or ultimate free will. For if absolute free will existed, then there would have to be a being who could do whatever they wanted whether good or evil with no restrictions or consequences attached whatsoever. In other words, this concept of Free Will is purely imaginary because no being possesses this type of Free Will type characteristics.


In other words, It is not God's will or desire that you sin and reject Him. Yes, you are under His creation, sovereign rule, and divine plan (because the Lord can work both good and evil for His purposes), but God does not approve of someone doing evil as if it was His approved of will or desire for your life. God is good. Not evil.


For the moment you take away free will (not ultimate free will) is the moment you make God responsible for directly creating evil and sin. However, there is no darkness in God at all. God created free willed beings that made the decision to be evil and to sin. God did not force Adam and Eve to rebel. They had a choice to either choose life or to choose death. They chose death. Not because God wanted them to. It was because they wanted to choose death.

 

[Jason0047]

In other words, when you read passages about how God elects us or how God grants us repentance or how no man can come unto God unless the Father draws them, you also have to realize that Scripture also says that God (the Father) ELECTS (chooses) us based on His foreknowledge (Which would be foreknowledge of our future free will choices). Read 1 Peter 1:1, 2 (And pay extra special close attention to verse 2).

 

[Jason0047]

I mean, I get it; There are obviously things we can do nothing about. We cannot change death or the consequences of sin. We cannot choose to fly like superman or to shoot laser beams from our eyes at will. Just because we have predetermined perimeters upon our being does not negate the fact that we can still choose between life and death with each one having it's own unique consequences.

When Satan seduced Eve to buy into the lie that she would not die spiritually by eating of the wrong tree, she made a choice. Yes, it was a predetermined choice. But the choice still existed none the less! If she refused Satan and convinced Adam to do the same, then we would not be in the sinful world that we are living in now. God did not force Eve to eat of the wrong tree, nor did God prevent Eve in eating of it either. He gave her the free will choice to choose one way or the other.

For example:
If I put a tiger in a super tight cage to just fit it's body, he is not free to move about or even bend it's neck to get food to eat. He is trapped and confined to a very tight space. But if I put the tiger in a 100 acre land that was fenced in with wild game to feed upon, then he is free to move about naturally. Yes, he is still in a controlled area, but he is now free to move. The tiger has the free choice to now move or to not move of it's own will. But when it was in the cage, it did not have that choice.

Therefore, in conclusion:
God does not take away our free will to either accept Him or to reject Him. It is not an illusion. One choice will lead a person to Heaven and the other choice will lead that person to Hell. God does not force people to go to Heaven nor does He force people to go to Hell. It is that simple.

 

[SeaBass]

I don't find the term free will in the Bible, a will - but like I said it's not free.

I am convinced - you can be convinced on your own accord - lets just act upon our convictions

Ezra 7:13 "I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee."

They would not be FORCED against their freewill to go to Jerusalem, it was their own personal freewill choice to go or not.

 

[SeaBass]

Can man save himself? No. Can man do anything to participate in his salvation? No.

Acts 2:40 save yourselves
1 Tim 4:16 save thyself
1 Pet 1:22 you have purified your souls
James 4:8 Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded
Phil 2:13 work out your own salvation
2 Tim 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these


Calvinism contradicts the bible in so many places.

 

[ThomistColin]

Here in lies the problem.

1. You said that we do not have a sovereign will. That's a loaded question, because our will is sovereign over our own selves. Meaning we choose and take full responsibility for our own will (notice full responsibility). Our will is not sovereign over others, or God. So, your first question is not a yes or no answer.

2. You asked if our will is our hope. Here is a deceptive question. Because, while the question does bring up the point that it is God that is our hope, it also ignores that it is our will TO hope. You see some see a saviour and react saying, "Nope, I've hoped before and it came to nothing." While others will continue to hope, knowing that God will keep His promise someday. So, while our will is not the source of our hope, it is our will to hope.

3. Is man's will fallen? Yes. That's simple. However, again deceptive. Even though our will's are disordered, they can still make right decision.

4. Is man's will a slave to sin? Yes, but define slave. You see, Satan and Sin are not like God, they do not have absolute power, and they have limits (God has absolute power without limits). Therefore, while man's will is in slavery, it is not a total slavery. Many men hate their slavery and seek to break it through their own will (i.e. Buddhists). Some men hate their slavery and try to pretend they are actually free (i.e. Neo-Pagans/Wiccans). However, even though each are still enslaved, it shows that there is still a free-willed being within that slavery. Man can still rattle his chains and cry out to God.

Now comes my response. We can still cry out to God! You see, I cannot save myself, I cannot end my slavery, but GOD CAN. Therefore, God can, through His grace, bring me to realize my own poverty and falleness, He can then reveal just a touch of Himself for me to glimpse, and when my cry rises up, He sweeps me up and wraps me in His grace.

Notice, in that situation, God does everything, I only ever respond. For God acts, and man reacts. That is the difference of our wills. God's will is creative and primary, our will reacts to creation and is secondary.

 

[thecreationtutor]

Here in lies the problem.

1. You said that we do not have a sovereign will. That's a loaded question, because our will is sovereign over our own selves. Meaning we choose and take full responsibility for our own will (notice full responsibility). Our will is not sovereign over others, or God. So, your first question is not a yes or no answer.

2. You asked if our will is our hope. Here is a deceptive question. Because, while the question does bring up the point that it is God that is our hope, it also ignores that it is our will TO hope. You see some see a saviour and react saying, "Nope, I've hoped before and it came to nothing." While others will continue to hope, knowing that God will keep His promise someday. So, while our will is not the source of our hope, it is our will to hope.

3. Is man's will fallen? Yes. That's simple. However, again deceptive. Even though our will's are disordered, they can still make right decision.

4. Is man's will a slave to sin? Yes, but define slave. You see, Satan and Sin are not like God, they do not have absolute power, and they have limits (God has absolute power without limits). Therefore, while man's will is in slavery, it is not a total slavery. Many men hate their slavery and seek to break it through their own will (i.e. Buddhists). Some men hate their slavery and try to pretend they are actually free (i.e. Neo-Pagans/Wiccans). However, even though each are still enslaved, it shows that there is still a free-willed being within that slavery. Man can still rattle his chains and cry out to God.

Now comes my response. We can still cry out to God! You see, I cannot save myself, I cannot end my slavery, but GOD CAN. Therefore, God can, through His grace, bring me to realize my own poverty and falleness, He can then reveal just a touch of Himself for me to glimpse, and when my cry rises up, He sweeps me up and wraps me in His grace.

Notice, in that situation, God does everything, I only ever respond. For God acts, and man reacts. That is the difference of our wills. God's will is creative and primary, our will reacts to creation and is secondary.

I do like #1 but I would still say in addition that outside Christ is captive to the sin nature

#2 is a good delineation - Our hope - is in God - but our will is what steers our hope. I think I am trying to say that it's our will that is our hope, I am going to do this Christianity thing you know etc

#3 Not quite totally what I mean by fallen - I mean that our will does not work rightly, correctly, as God intended the will to work

#4 Utter depravity verses Total depravity - Utter - i can do no good thing - Total - I can do no good thing Godward or vertically, I can be good horizontally - with other people, it's towards God is where I am depraved from


Last statement - the response is belief is how I have heard someone say it. God gives faith, faith is a gift - belief is more or less our part