John Teaches Eternal Security; Demonic To Deny It

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Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
#21
If you are reffering to the osas doctrine issue
The issue, Blain, is ONCE SAVED, SAVED! That is the rocket science idea that when a man is saved, he is saved. It is the idea that Thou shalt all His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins -- the Savior is a Savior, not a mere chance giver.

I disagree with that one because I have seen many Christians fall from faith.
That is no reason at all. You don't know the heart of men. Of course persons who call themselves Christians may eventually deny the facts they said they believed. Church members may leave. But your "seen" means nothing; because you don't know who really trusts Christ as Savior. Moreover, since you don't believe He is your Savior, you are spiritually blind.

1 John 2 speaks of apostasy -- men do join churches, associate with believers, get dunked, believe that Jesus is the Son of God. 1 John 2 explains that leaving proves they were never part of the Body of Christ, the us who trust Him with our destiny.


1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

True believers continue; they do not depart.

Unbelievers on this forum over & over seem to want to start threads blazoning the lie that to believe that the Savior Saves is demonic. Have you been complaining at them? This is not a matter of mere "doctrinal disagreement." We are speaking of the plan of salvation, the definition of Christ as Savior, not the colors of the beast's toenails. This isn't a matter of debate on church government, sprinkling vs immersion, whether or not the millennium is literal, pre-trib, mid-trib or post-toasties. Even if you believed the error of annihilationism & soul-sleep, that would not prevent Christian fellowship. But this is the very gospel & the Savior. Galatians puts the anathema on denying the gospel.

If any reading this had dismissed the SAvior Who paid for your sins at such great cost on the cross, and has dismissed Him as Savior, making Him a mere chance-giver, you are urged to repent and depend on the only One Who can Save you.

THOU SHALT CALL HIS NAME JESUS, FOR
HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS.

Demonic to deny that.

I marvel that ye are so quickly removing from him that called you in the grace of Christ unto a different gospel; 7 which is not another gospel: only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema. 9 As we have said before, so say I now again, If any man preacheth unto you any gospel other than that which ye received, let him be anathema.

 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
#22
which part of "eternal" isn't "eternal" ??

LOL, the infernal part in the imagination of those who can't stand the idea that He shall save His people from their sins, the part in the imagination of those who want to glorify themselves thinking that their works are good; that imagination of the Pharisee who won't cry out, "God be merciful to me a sinner"
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
#23
1 John on Eternal Security


1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for

if they had been of us,
they would have continued with us
.

But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

1 John also defines the believer as the Overcomer,
which tells us that the Overcomer of Revelation who is promised not to have his name blotted out,
is the believer.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,098
113
#24
Whatever the case, when an OP starts throwing around words like "demonic" or "Satanic" as applies to some scripturally arguable, varying takes on doctrine, such a person isn't worth discoursing with, until they get off that very high, judgmental horse that presumes God-like prescience, who doesn't seem to find such slander unbecoming anybody claiming Christ.

goodness, someone ought to inform Paul to get down off his high horse.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.
(1 Timothy 4:1-5)

i know he's not talking about eternal security here, but he doesn't seem shy about calling false teaching "demonic"
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,098
113
#25
I am not ashamed:
for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able
to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

(2 Timothy 1:12)

if it was myself that i trusted, for sure i know that all my hope would be in vain.
but it's not me i call on - it's the Almighty God, whose faithfulness is everlasting, and whose promises are sure.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#26

goodness, someone ought to inform Paul to get down off his high horse.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.
(1 Timothy 4:1-5)

i know he's not talking about eternal security here, but he doesn't seem shy about calling false teaching "demonic"
Apples and oranges. Shades of gray in doctrinal matters, among believers, has nothing to do with that passage.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#27
If you think it's appropriate to call other believers demonic or Satanic, over matters many faithful have disagreed upon down the ages, I really don't know what to say to that, except devil means slanderer. Somebody throwing around that other believers are demonic, such a slanderer isn't in the company of Christ, in any case.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,177
2,539
113
#28
Mr atwood you can disagree with the issue on osas but if you call the opposing belief demonic that is literally no different than call me demonic because I don't believe in osas or anyone else who has the same belief as mine. You are misusing the word and definition demonic and it is not fair to use such a thing for disagreeing with another believers doctrine. Anything demonic is a type of thing that worships or gives glory to the devil and you going around calling a certain belief by some of the most wonderful Christians demonic is not only bad but is very very wrong. Because as afar as I can tell we don't worship or give the enemy glory by believing in something.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,177
2,539
113
#29
The issue, Blain, is ONCE SAVED, SAVED! That is the rocket science idea that when a man is saved, he is saved. It is the idea that Thou shalt all His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins -- the Savior is a Savior, not a mere chance giver.



That is no reason at all. You don't know the heart of men. Of course persons who call themselves Christians may eventually deny the facts they said they believed. Church members may leave. But your "seen" means nothing; because you don't know who really trusts Christ as Savior. Moreover, since you don't believe He is your Savior, you are spiritually blind.

1 John 2 speaks of apostasy -- men do join churches, associate with believers, get dunked, believe that Jesus is the Son of God. 1 John 2 explains that leaving proves they were never part of the Body of Christ, the us who trust Him with our destiny.


1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

True believers continue; they do not depart.

Unbelievers on this forum over & over seem to want to start threads blazoning the lie that to believe that the Savior Saves is demonic. Have you been complaining at them? This is not a matter of mere "doctrinal disagreement." We are speaking of the plan of salvation, the definition of Christ as Savior, not the colors of the beast's toenails. This isn't a matter of debate on church government, sprinkling vs immersion, whether or not the millennium is literal, pre-trib, mid-trib or post-toasties. Even if you believed the error of annihilationism & soul-sleep, that would not prevent Christian fellowship. But this is the very gospel & the Savior. Galatians puts the anathema on denying the gospel.

If any reading this had dismissed the SAvior Who paid for your sins at such great cost on the cross, and has dismissed Him as Savior, making Him a mere chance-giver, you are urged to repent and depend on the only One Who can Save you.

THOU SHALT CALL HIS NAME JESUS, FOR
HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS.

Demonic to deny that.

I marvel that ye are so quickly removing from him that called you in the grace of Christ unto a different gospel; 7 which is not another gospel: only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema. 9 As we have said before, so say I now again, If any man preacheth unto you any gospel other than that which ye received, let him be anathema.

I may be spiritually blind to a point for I cannot truly see with his eyes and truly love with his heart but I swore I would be love and nothing else and love does not go around saying the things you said. I almost didnt even answer this post because I didn't want to add to the fire but I want you to know where I stand and what I believe and see.

I am saved not just because I asked Jesus to save me but because I sought to know love and be love. True enough I don't know the hearts of man but I do however know what God sees in them. Beneath all that sin even in the most vile and darkest of souls he sees something in them that is worth dying for. He sees each person as a rare and beautiful treasure and loves them so deeply and so strongly that we can never fully grasp it even in heaven. to him each person is more precious and more important than his own throne and is willing to go to extreme lenghts for sake of one person.
do you have any idea how badly he just wants to hold us and to shower us with his love and affection? How deeply his arms crave to wrap themselves around us and never let go?
This is what I see when I look through his eyes and I say to myself this will be how deeply I will love them how far I will be willing to go and how precious and important even the most vile of a person will be to me. But since I am not there yet yes I agree I am spiritually blind but the light shines the brightest in the dark
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
3,649
113
#31
Blain, anything that is a lie is demonic. Not the person but the lie. It is our duty to seek which side is true and which isn't. They both can't be true.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#32
John teaches eternal security because Jesus taught it to him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
May 2, 2014
1,060
12
0
#34
If you think it's appropriate to call other believers demonic or Satanic, over matters many faithful have disagreed upon down the ages, I really don't know what to say to that, except devil means slanderer. Somebody throwing around that other believers are demonic, such a slanderer isn't in the company of Christ, in any case.
The title of the thread itself is fallacious, it's the fallacy of poisoning the well.

Poisoning the well (or attempting to poison the well) is a rhetorical device where adverse information about a target is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say. Poisoning the well can be a special case of argumentum ad hominem, and the term was first used with this sense by John Henry Newman in his work Apologia Pro Vita Sua (1864).[SUP][1][/SUP] The origin of the term lies in well poisoning, an ancient wartime practice of pouring poison into sources of fresh water before an invading army, to diminish the attacking army's strength.
 
May 2, 2014
1,060
12
0
#35
Mr atwood you can disagree with the issue on osas but if you call the opposing belief demonic that is literally no different than call me demonic because I don't believe in osas or anyone else who has the same belief as mine. You are misusing the word and definition demonic and it is not fair to use such a thing for disagreeing with another believers doctrine. Anything demonic is a type of thing that worships or gives glory to the devil and you going around calling a certain belief by some of the most wonderful Christians demonic is not only bad but is very very wrong. Because as afar as I can tell we don't worship or give the enemy glory by believing in something.

Blain,

The OSAS argument is based in logical fallacies. The ad hominem is also a logical fallacy. If you're in an OSAS discussion expect the fallacies.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,098
113
#37
Where is eternal in the original language?
aiónios: agelong, eternal
Original Word: αἰώνιος, ία, ιον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: aiónios
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-o'-nee-os)
Short Definition: eternal, unending
Definition: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: top, width: 17%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Morphology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3779 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Houtōs[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Οὕτως[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]thus[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1063 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]gar[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]γὰρ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]indeed[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]25 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ēgapēsen[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἠγάπησεν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]loved[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ho[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὁ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2316 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Theos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Θεὸς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]God[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ton[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τὸν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-AMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2889 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kosmon[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]κόσμον,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]world,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-AMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5620 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hōste[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὥστε[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]that[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ton[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τὸν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-AMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5207 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Huion[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Υἱὸν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]Son,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-AMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ton[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τὸν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-AMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3439 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]monogenē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]μονογενῆ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]only begotten,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adj-AMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1325 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]edōken[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἔδωκεν,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]he gave,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2443 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hina[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἵνα[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]that[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3956 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]pas[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]πᾶς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]everyone[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adj-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ho[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὁ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4100 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]pisteuōn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]πιστεύων[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]believing[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1519 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]eis[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]εἰς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]in[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]846 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]auton[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]αὐτὸν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]him,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-AM3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3361 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"][/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]μὴ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]not[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]622 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]apolētai[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀπόληται[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]should perish,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-ASM-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]235 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]all’[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀλλ’[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]but[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2192 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]echē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἔχῃ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]might have[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PSA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2222 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]zōēn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ζωὴν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]life[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-AFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]166 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]aiōnion[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]αἰώνιον.[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]eternal.[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adj-AFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
P

psychomom

Guest
#38
Where is eternal in the original language?
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

eternal, from the Greek aión

definition: agelong...eternal
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
3,649
113
#39
I'm not sure that there is any such thing as zoé life that is not also eternal, otherwise it is bíos type of life.
 
M

Matt1626

Guest
#40
That verse means nothing about eternal security. Even the demons believe he exists and they are clearly not in Heaven.

Does james 2 say even the demons believe

James 2:19New International Version (NIV)


19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.