GREATER WORKS THAN JESUS

[ELECT]

John 14:12 [Full Chapter]
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Why are we not seeing greater works

 

[peacefulbeliever]

John 14:12 [Full Chapter]
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Why are we not seeing greater works

And he (Jesus) did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief. [Matt. 13:58] Same reason Jesus did not many mighty works in and around certain places - because of unbelief.

 

[dcontroversal]

Because the majority of people who claim Jesus have no real power in their lives and at the end of the age the people of the Lord will apo-hystamie from the truth in favor of a worldly, pseudo Christianity with a form of godliness but no real power!

 

[ChristIsGod]

I agree with peacefulbeliever & dcontroversal but my first reaction was - Well, we've surely seen enough of the counterfeit. Reckon that goes along with what dcontroversal said as well.

Do you suppose that we'll see a time, like during persecution, when the real McCoy will begin and those that are just fish & break & counterfeit gifts types will compromise or lose it completely?

Something about persecution, seems to seperate the wheat from the tares. Someone once said, that the difference between wheat and tares is that when the wind blows, the wheat sways with the wind but the tares stay still.

Any farmers know if that true or not?

 

[1still_waters]

People who equate "the works greater than Jesus" with "we need to be out healing thousands"...and who say it simply depends on our initiative and faith and ability to believe...
To folks who say that..i tend to say..

You first.
Logout.
Go to the nearest hospital or nursing home, and do it.
Quit getting yourself and others on here all worked up over what we're not doing.
Just go do it.
Put some hustle to the muscle, n do it.
There is no sense in sitting here doing the spiritual and theological equiv of chest pounding.

If you really believe that, then do it.
Period.

IMHO.

 

[ELECT]

People who equate "the works greater than Jesus" with "we need to be out healing thousands"...
To folks who say that..i tend to say..

You first.
Logout.
Go to the nearest hospital or nursing home, and do it.
Quit getting yourself and others on here all worked up over what we're not doing.
Just go do it.
Put some hustle to the muscle, n do it.
There is no sense in sitting here doing the spiritual and theological equiv of chest pounding.

If you really believe that, then do it.
Period.

IMHO.

Not all have the work of healing right ?

 

[1still_waters]

Not all have the work of healing right ?

Looks like you may have the answer to your original question.

John 14:12 [Full Chapter]
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Why are we not seeing greater works

See this is what I don't get.
Folks post about how we're not doing the works greater than Jesus.
They ask why.
The subtext is that of course we're just not believing enough and walking in the power.

But then when pressed on it, and called to action, they end up answering their own question, and or shrink back from the initial subtext of their post.

John 14:12 [Full Chapter]
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Why are we not seeing greater works

Not all have the work of healing right ?

 

[ELECT]

Looks like you may have the answer to your original question.



See this is what I don't get.
Folks post about how we're not doing the works greater than Jesus.
They ask why.
The subtext is that of course we're just not believing enough and walking in the power.

But then when pressed on it, and called to action, they end up answering their own question, and or shrink back from the initial subtext of their post.

Why are the ones with the true gift not doing the greater work then ?

I am not talking about the phonies ?

 

[ELECT]

Looks like you may have the answer to your original question.



See this is what I don't get.
Folks post about how we're not doing the works greater than Jesus.
They ask why.
The subtext is that of course we're just not believing enough and walking in the power.

But then when pressed on it, and called to action, they end up answering their own question, and or shrink back from the initial subtext of their post.

How can I do a work which I dont have a gift for

 

[newbirth]

John 14:12 [Full Chapter]
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Why are we not seeing greater works

because you are not seeing what you are expecting to see......most people want to see healing and such...but God has given every believer the ministry of reconciliation and bringing a soul to Christ is greater than healing...acts of love toward the brethren is greater than healing....acts of love toward strangers is greater than healing...what is it that a man body is healed and have great possession in this world but lose his soul? The greatest work is love and compassion out of a pure heart.....

 

[pastac]

I agree with peacefulbeliever & dcontroversal but my first reaction was - Well, we've surely seen enough of the counterfeit. Reckon that goes along with what dcontroversal said as well.

Do you suppose that we'll see a time, like during persecution, when the real McCoy will begin and those that are just fish & break & counterfeit gifts types will compromise or lose it completely?

Something about persecution, seems to seperate the wheat from the tares. Someone once said, that the difference between wheat and tares is that when the wind blows, the wheat sways with the wind but the tares stay still.

Any farmers know if that true or not?

Many will only see what they want to see, hear what they want to hear, and continue to do what they want to do. Many of the real McCoy's are labeled as self righteous, know it all's angry all sorts of stuff to nullify their effectiveness. Many a good word has come on cc but has been diminished by the Jesus is all love crowd.

Many don't really know Jesus as a warrior and view him differently even that scripture say he truly is. ohhh there are some of us real believers who suffer persecution right here on cc for standing firm in spite of all that is said or posted. Many of us do pray and adhere to a Bible lifestyle and sadly many don't. We will see the days get better.

 

[newbirth]

Why are the ones with the true gift not doing the greater work then ?

I am not talking about the phonies ?

it does not matter what another has ...but what you have...
Corinthians 13 American Standard Version (ASV)
13 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

 

[newbirth]

How can I do a work which I dont have a gift for

God teaches us how to obtain the greatest gift.....

2 Peter 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

 

[pastac]

it does not matter what another has ...but what you have...
Corinthians 13 American Standard Version (ASV)
13 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

Many facets to love newbirth! Love is firm ,love is powerful, love reflects the light of Jesus in us and reveals darkness as well. Love is not all huggy kissy feely feely emotional stuff we often equate with love. Love is war and love is difficult to embrace if your mind is not renewed.

 

[newbirth]

Many facets to love newbirth! Love is firm ,love is powerful, love reflects the light of Jesus in us and reveals darkness as well. Love is not all huggy kissy feely feely emotional stuff we often equate with love. Love is war and love is difficult to embrace if your mind is not renewed.

have I posted anything but the word? Does not the word describe what God expects in regard to love? your comment is your version of love...not God's...and whose mind is not renewed? is it not the one who has not received the word?
You ought not to put your version of love as a guide when God has put his version for us to follow...

 

[newbirth]

Many will only see what they want to see, hear what they want to hear, and continue to do what they want to do. Many of the real McCoy's are labeled as self righteous, know it all's angry all sorts of stuff to nullify their effectiveness. Many a good word has come on cc but has been diminished by the Jesus is all love crowd.

Many don't really know Jesus as a warrior and view him differently even that scripture say he truly is. ohhh there are some of us real believers who suffer persecution right here on cc for standing firm in spite of all that is said or posted. Many of us do pray and adhere to a Bible lifestyle and sadly many don't. We will see the days get better.

but we war not against flesh and blood...




2 Corinthians 10:3-5King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
[SUP]4 [/SUP](For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

 

[pastac]

Newbirth what in the world are you talking about? Don't fly off the deep end in your understanding of Love. was not Jesus beaten in his love for us? Did not Jesus die in his love for us. You posting scripture will never undo the fact that Jesus loved o one will ever deny that and I surely don't.
But because he loved us he loved he died and his work that he had to do for us in the earth to redeem us,because of his love he went into the temple became angry yet never sinned turned over tables because the men had turned it into a market place a den of thieves no I'm clear on what love is. The scriptures confirm it.

 

[pastac]

You want scripture Ill give you scripture. In seminary I found this by James Fowler helpful. Let me put it in context for you. You can never understand Love from a spiritual plane if your mind is not renewed.

You can only try to understand I from the natural perspective and then you will still not grasp all the elements of it. Its deeper than most think. Anyway here is scripture.

.RENEWING THE MINDI. Representative Biblical references
A. Attitudes of mind that need to be renewed
Rom. 1:28 - "a depraved mind, to do things which are not proper"
Rom. 8:5,7 - "mind set on the flesh" *
Rom. 12:16 - "haughty in mind" *
II Cor. 4:4 - "blinded the minds of unbelieving"
II Cor. 11:3 - "minds led astray from simplicity and purity to Christ" *
Eph. 2:3 - "the desires of the flesh and of the mind"
Eph. 4:17 - "the futility of their mind" *
Phil. 3:19 - "set their minds on earthly things" *
Col. 1:21 - "alienated and hostile in mind"
Col. 2:18 - "inflated without cause by a fleshly mind" *
Titus 1:15 - "their mind and their conscience are defiled" *
B. Calls for renewal
Rom. 12:2 - "be transformed by the renewing of your mind" *
II Cor. 4:16 - "our inner man is being renewed day by day" *
Eph. 4:23 - "be renewed in the spirit of your mind" *
Col. 3:10 - "the new man is being renewed to a true knowledge..." *
Titus 3:5 - "renewing by the Holy Spirit"
C. Attitudes of a renewed mind
Isa. 26:3 - "the steadfast of mind Thou wilt keep in perfect peace"
Jere. 17:10 - "I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind"
Jere. 20:12 - "The Lord who seest the mind and the heart"
Matt. 22:37 - "Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind and strength" *
Rom. 14:5 - "let each man be fully convinced in his own mind" *
I Cor. 2:16 - "we have the mind of Christ"
Phil. 2:5 - "have this mind in you which was also in Christ Jesus" *
Phil. 4:8 - "whatever is true, right, pure...let your mind dwell on these..." *
Col. 3:2 - "set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth" *
Heb. 8:10; 10:16 - "I will put my laws into their minds"
I Pet. 1:13 - "gird your minds for action" *
Rev. 2:23 - "I am He who searches the minds and hearts"
II. Why does the mind need to be renewed?
A. The mind has been programmed with natural "established attitudes"
1. These are the beliefs, thoughts, ideas, opinions, convictions, prejudices that we have concerning ourselves, others, objects, activities, God, etc.
2. How were these formed?
a. recommendation
(1) of parents
(2) of educational system
(3) of society (books, television, movies, etc.)
(4) of religious training
b. reflection
(1) personal observation
(2) personal experience
(3) personal compromise
3. These "established attitudes" permeated with fleshly "personal interest" of selfishness and sinfulness.
a. Act: personal aspiration, gratification, reputation
b. React: fight, fright, flight
B. If there was a mental-video device that could record all the thoughts that go through your mind, would you want to play it back for everyone?
1. God knows our every thought
Jere. 17:10 - "I, the Lord, search the heart; I test the mind"
Jere. 20:12 - "The Lord seest the mind and the heart"
Rev. 2:23 - "I am He who searches the minds and hearts"
2. Does this not reveal the necessity of renewing the mind?
C. The mind needs to be renewed with Godly "established attitudes"
1. Initial and continual renewal of the mind
a. Initial renewal - regenerative renewal
Titus 3:5 - "regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit"
I Cor. 2:16 - "you have the mind of Christ"
Heb. 8:10; 10:16 - "I will put my laws in their hearts"
b. Continual renewal - sanctifying renewal
Phil. 2:5 - "Have this mind in you which was in Christ"
Phil. 4:8 - "whatever is true, right, pure...let minds dwell
Col. 3:2 - "set your minds on things above"
2. The thoughts and attitudes of the mind serve as the conduits which allow for the mobilization of Godly behavior by divine energizing.
Prov. 23:7 - "As a man thinks in his soul, so is he (in behavior)
I Pet. 1:13 - "gird your minds for action"
D. The combination of our "established attitudes" develop into a "mind-set"
1. Mind-set about ourselves
a. false sense of identity
b. external orientation - "how do I look?"
c. guilt - attitudes of worthlessness, inferiority
2. Mind-set about other people
a. people pleasing - self-conscious
b. vain imaginations - fears, phobias
c. attitudes of anger, impatience, hate, bitterness, resentment, revenge, suspicion, criticism, jealousy, unforgiveness, blame, depression, co-dependency
3. Mind-set about things
a. materialism - "what am I going to buy next?"
b. love things - use people
c. addictions to substances, objects, etc.
4. Mind-set about ideas
a. quest for knowledge
b. desire to be correct, accurate, right
5. Mind-set about situations
a. what might happen; the hypothetical - worry
b. panic about inability to cope
6. Mind-set about God
a. irrelevant, archaic, out-moded, unnecessary
b. external, peripheral safety net; mystical, magical
III. How can the mind be renewed to develop Godly "established attitudes"?
A. Established attitudes re-formed to coincide with God's attitudes
1. Consistent with His character - purity, righteousness, love, joy
2. "Made new again"
a. Greek anakainoo: ana=again; kainos=new
b. Greek ananeoo: ana=again; neos=new
3. In accord with the
a. newness of life in Jesus Christ - Rom. 6:4
b. newness of the Spirit - Rom. 7:6
c. new covenant - Heb. 8:8,13
d. new and living way - Heb. 10:20
e. new creature - II Cor. 5:17
f. new man - Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10
B. Basis of Godly "established attitudes" is God's revelation of Himself
1. Natural revelation
Ps. 19:1,2 - "the heavens declare the glory of God..."
Rom. 1:20 - "His attributes have been seen...through what he made"
2. Incarnational revelation
Lk. 10:22 - "the Son will reveal Him"
Jn. 1:18 - "He has explained Him"
3. Biblical revelation
II Tim. 3:16 - "all Scripture is inspired by God"
Not just Bible knowledge of Bible data or trivia
4. Personal revelation
Phil. 3:15 - "God will reveal it to you"
Rom. 14:5 - "let each man be fully convinced in his own mind"
C. Requires personal discipline to renew Godly established attitudes.
I Tim. 4:7 - "discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness"
1. Undisciplined minds and thinking retain natural attitudes
2. This is not the self-discipline of self-effort
3. We must discipline (exercise) our minds and thoughts to allow for Godly action mobilized through Godly established attitudes
D. A "mind-set" settled on God and His activity.
1. A "steadfast mind" set on the things of God
Prov. 16:3 - "your thoughts shall be established"
Isa. 26:3 - "the steadfast of mind Thou wilt keep in perfect peace"
a. Not an idle mind - daydreaming, procrastinating, wasting time, fantasizing
b. Mind set on God's character and His ways
Phil. 4:8 - "whatever is true, right, pure...let your mind dwell on these..."
Col. 3:2 - "set your mind on things above...
2. A "mind-set" that spontaneously thinks of God and His activity
a. "Yes, Lord"
(1) temptation
(2) worship
b. Joy - Phil. 4:4; I Thess. 5:16
c. Laughter - Prov. 15:13; 17:22
d. Song in your heart - Eph. 5:19
e. Love for others - Rom. 5:5; Jn. 13:34
E. Practical necessity of "renewing of mind" for Godly behavior
1. Change in form of thinking and behavior (transformation) comes as an indirect result of renewal of mind - Rom. 12:2
2. Cannot reverse: External nonconformity does not lead to behavioral transformation -
Col. 2:20-23
3. Based on spiritual regeneration and becoming a "new man" in Christ, the Christian has the indwelling spiritual sufficiency to engage in the renewing of the mind that allows for divinely empowered Christian behavior - Eph. 4:23; Col. 3:10

 

[pastac]

have I posted anything but the word? Does not the word describe what God expects in regard to love? your comment is your version of love...not God's...and whose mind is not renewed? is it not the one who has not received the word?
You ought not to put your version of love as a guide when God has put his version for us to follow...

It is possible to hear the word and not receive it. the word says be just not a hearer but a doer. It also says in all your getting get understanding. Love is not a simple as you would like to make it if so all would love by that standard. Love is complex and we can only navigate true love in Christ.

 

[dalconn]

John 14:12 [Full Chapter]
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Why are we not seeing greater works

The christians work and/or mission is carried out as a body, not as an individual. That being established, the church has reached and ministered to a much greater number of souls, nations, and causes than did Jesus while on earth.