faith alone?

[pickles]

In the Bible, again and again the importance of faith is spoken to.
As I share this, please understand that I am not saying we should ever dismiss or not read the scriptures, but the intent of this thread is to show that one must have faith, in all scriptures read, and all we are asked to believe upon.

Too often here, one sees another struggling because a scripture or teaching has come into question, sometimes because of worldly knowladge applied, sometimes simply because one scripture seems to cause doubt or seems to be at odds with another scripture, sometimes simply because on sees a God in the old testament, verses new, and one cannot find peace in it.
Now Knowladge is important, but it has no streangth with out faith.

Now this thread is not about debating all these things, this is simply about how important faith is in all we seek in Jesus.
One wants to have the knowladge to understand, or proof.

If there is anything I have come to know in Jesus, it is that all comes by faith.

For proof , evidence, knowladge all the things we look to, so we feel secure in belief, are still depndent on the world, flesh, things we think we can hold or carry in mind or see.
Only in the heart can these things be stored, and only by faith are they secured.

Faith is the evidence of things unseen, and all we look to, cannot stand on its own, unless we have faith.
If we depend on evidence, proof or knowladge alone, some where or at some time, that evidence or knowladge will be shaken, questioned or have confusion thrown at it.

The theif is working hard right now, trying to combine all religions and beliefs as united to one, forsaking Jesus for a more spiritual belief, dependant on one's own understanding or what feels right.
Making accusations of deception in christianity, the bible is corrupted, ect.
Saying rituals and actions will save you.
Even calling christians as bigoted, close minded, even a type or terrorist.
Confusion being its greatest weapon, and a false peace that feels good.

Scripture says, there are three things that last, faith, hope and love.
It is by faith we know hope, and by hope that the face and love of Jesus is revieled.
It is by faith that all is revieled and the prefect peace of Jesus is known.
Not because of some proof or evidence, but because faith is what God Our Father honors, and by faith, His gifts flow freely to us.

Im no scholar, and most days Im blessed if I can remember what I was to do that day, read or spell.
But it is my weakness that God's power has been made perfect, glorified.
Not by what I have done, but by faith, for because of my weak memory, I have had to live everyday in faith, simply because I cannot depend on my own knowladge or abuilities.
But this faith given and lived, has brought the glory of God and the gift of grace won in Jesus, into every moment, every breath, every choice made.
Trully faith brings the cornerstone of everything we are to live in Jesus.

So, as called to in the scriptures, live, walk and work by faith, and you will be unmoveable, unshakable like mount Zion.
God will provide all you need, all understanding as need through the Holy Spirit in Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh.
For its not about always having proof or evidence, but knowing that faith is the evidence, and that by doing all in faith, that rest will be provided in Jesus, overflowing.

For it is by faith upon Jesus you have recieive grace, not by anything you have done, for it is Gopds gift to you.
I cannot stress more, just how inportant faith is, even when it is all you have, simply because, it is by faith, that all is given.

For in the end there are three things that last, faith, hope and love, the greatest of these being love.

In Jesus, God bless
pickles

 

[mailmandan]

What a genuine believer means by faith (belief, trust, reliance) IN CHRIST ALONE for salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9) and what James means by faith THAT REMAINS ALONE (barren of works) is not the same message. So when a genuine believer says that we are saved through "faith alone," they are not saying that we are saved by the "kind" of faith that "remains alone" (barren of works). Saving faith results in good works, so it's not alone in that sense but it's the faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ part of the equation that "alone" saves as the instrumental means. Good works are the fruit, by-product and demonstrative evidence of our faith, but they are not the means of our salvation. The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith IN CHRIST ALONE conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith IN CHRIST ALONE (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). Simple!

For in the end there are three things that last, faith, hope and love, the greatest of these being love.

Love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary, love will still be the governing principle that controls all that God and his redeemed people are and do. Faith works through love, yet we won't need faith and hope in heaven.

 

[just-me]

What a genuine believer means by faith (belief, trust, reliance) IN CHRIST ALONE for salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9) and what James means by faith THAT REMAINS ALONE (barren of works) is not the same message. So when a genuine believer says that we are saved through "faith alone," they are not saying that we are saved by the "kind" of faith that "remains alone" (barren of works). Saving faith results in good works, so it's not alone in that sense but it's the faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ part of the equation that "alone" saves as the instrumental means. Good works are the fruit, by-product and demonstrative evidence of our faith, but they are not the means of our salvation. The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith IN CHRIST ALONE conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith IN CHRIST ALONE (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). Simple!

Love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary, love will still be the governing principle that controls all that God and his redeemed people are and do. Faith works through love, yet we won't need faith and hope in heaven.

Good explanation. Faith is the substance that issues in the hope. Hebrews 11:1-3
1 Now faith is the substance of things *hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

(CJB) Romans 5:5 and this *hope does not let us down, because God's love for us has already been poured out in our hearts through the Ruach HaKodesh who has been given to us.

Psalm 31:24 Be of good courage, and he shall strengthen your heart, all ye that *hope in the LORD.

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

 

[Skinski7]

What a genuine believer means by faith (belief, trust, reliance) IN CHRIST ALONE for salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9) and what James means by faith THAT REMAINS ALONE (barren of works) is not the same message. So when a genuine believer says that we are saved through "faith alone," they are not saying that we are saved by the "kind" of faith that "remains alone" (barren of works). Saving faith results in good works, so it's not alone in that sense but it's the faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ part of the equation that "alone" saves as the instrumental means. Good works are the fruit, by-product and demonstrative evidence of our faith, but they are not the means of our salvation. The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith IN CHRIST ALONE conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith IN CHRIST ALONE (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). Simple!

Love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary, love will still be the governing principle that controls all that God and his redeemed people are and do. Faith works through love, yet we won't need faith and hope in heaven.

The message of Paul and James is the same message.

James is simply reinforcing the truth that faith is active as opposed to being passive. Thus an individual with saving faith is a doer of the word and not a hearer only.

The only reason people attempt to claim that Paul and James are speaking two different messages is because they are holding to a definition of faith that contradicts faith being active. If faith is viewed as passive then what James is teaching must be rejected and redefined whereby the "deeds" that are connected to "faith being active" are relegated to "subsequent action" (ie. occurs later down the road some time) which "flow from" a "faith that is passive."

The foundation of this error is firstly the doctrine of Original Sin which teaches that human beings lack the ability to obey God thus faith cannot possibly be active because taking action requires ability. Thus an individual merely "trusts in something" and then WAITS for "someone else to do the action for them." Yet this is erroneous because in the faith chapter of Hebrews we see how genuine faith is connected to DOING and that it is through the DOING that God effectually brings about salvation. I of course am alluding to Noah BUILDING the ark by faith. The faith of Noah was an ACTIVE faith whereupon he put the grace of God to effectual use, had he not done so he would have perished with those who drowned. Noah believed and trusted God and therefore he ACTIVELY WALKED by faith.

The second error upon which this error is established is the doctrine of Penal Substitution. This doctrine was developed by the Reformers about 400 years ago and it was a development of Anselm's 11th century Satisfaction View of the atonement.

People can read about the development of these doctrines here...

Atonement in Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Satisfaction theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Penal substitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What the Reformers did was take the Satisfaction View of Anselm (which taught that the death of Christ served as a counterbalance to the forgiveness of sins due to the infinite merit of Christ) and add a Penal element to it where they taught that Jesus was literally punished by God and therefore absorbed the wrath of God due the sinner. Thus in effect a "legal transaction" is taught to have taken place where the sinner swaps places with Jesus, Jesus being credited with the sins of the sinner and punished for them, the sinner being credited with the obedient track record of Jesus and deemed righteous for it. Thus "trusting in Jesus" by "faith alone" (passive faith) is the basis of salvation under this teaching.

The truth though is that human beings are neither born disabled in regards to being able to obey God nor was there any legal transaction effected with the cross.

The cross effected a purchase of a people unto righteousness from a condemned state of serving unrighteousness. The death of Christ brought into effect the New Covenant which people could be enjoined to. Thus if people would repent and forsake their evil ways and come clean with God confessing the evil they had done, confessing their past rebellion, God is willing to forgive them and give them a fresh start in which they are empowered by His Spirit to walk in victory over the works of the devil just like Jesus walked in victory.

Salvation by grace to faith simply means we are saved by the active working dynamic of wholeheartedly yielding ourselves to the grace of God which is effectual in transforming the soul unto the likeness of Jesus Christ. This is why Paul associates grace with the quickening in Eph 2:5...

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

When Paul says "not of works" he is referring to the notion that one can be saved by "obeying the Mosaic law" which is set apart from this transforming dynamic which changes the heart.

We are saved by grace THROUGH faith and not of ourselves because without the effectual working and empowerment of the grace of God there is simply nothing else by which to lead the hearts of men. Grace could be likened to the electrical current which allows a light globe to shine whilst faith could be likened to plugging in the light globe to the socket. Not of works would be to try and make the light globe shine apart from plugging it in, something which is impossible. That is why without Jesus Christ we can do nothing.

Thus James when he teaches that faith without works is dead is simply teaching that faith is not passive. One must be a doer of the word and not a hearer only because it is in the doing that the transformation of an individual can take place. This is why Paul writes...

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Without "working together" with God grace is simply received in vain, or to no working effect. Nothing is produced.

Many use 2Cor 5:21 as a proof text for the legal exchange of Penal Substitution when it actually says no such thing. What it does refer to is how we are MADE RIGHTEOUS IN HIM via grace THROUGH faith whereby we are quickened unto newness of life.

I hope people consider these things because it is the truth and it is what the Bible teaches. Christians obey God and walk according to His will. Christian's are inwardly pure due to this obedient walk because the grace of God IS effectual in transforming the heart of men. If there is no transformation then there is no salvation, therefore don't fall for any religious system which teaches that one can be saved and still evil, such a position is no salvation at all.

Thank you.

 

[Skinski7]

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Grace is received for obedience because without obedience grace is received in vain. In other words without obedience or yielding to grace there is no corresponding effect produced.

The Bible teaches...

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

The grace of God that brings salvation firstly appears to all men. Secondly this grace of God that brings salvation teaches us how to walk. We are to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live soberly, righteously and godly in the present. It is in yielding to this teaching by faith that we are transformed from a sinner to a saint. If one refuses to yield themselves to grace they remain a sinner. This is why there is no condemnation to those who are IN Christ Jesus, those who WALK after the Spirit, those in whom the righteousness of the law is fulfilled IN them.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You see righteousness is through the faith of Jesus Christ, an abiding faith of walking in the Spirit, a righteousness apart from the law through faith but of a faith which establishes the law in the heart (because faith works by love, Gal 5:6).

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

We are not justified by the deeds of the law (outward service of law keeping) but rather by a faith that works by love (Gal 5:6, Rom 4:6), a faith that WALKS (Rom 4:12) because it is active.

Jesus is the sin offering provided by God through which we can approach the Father via the blood of Christ with a true heart (Heb 10:19-22, 1Joh 1:7-10) and receive a cleansing of past criminal conduct and be given a fresh start whereby we walk by faith. There is no boasting in such a thing because it is only by the mercy of God that such a means is provided us. There is no work we can do that can undo our past crimes against God and thus redemption (the purchase from condemnation) is ONLY through Jesus Christ (ie. we cannot purchase ourselves). We forsake sin as being our master (we stop obeying sin) and we submit ourselves to our new master (Jesus Christ) whereby (and IN whom) we serve righteousness. Thus is we believe in Jesus (which means we abide in Him) we shall be saved.

 

[Cassian]

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Grace is received for obedience because without obedience grace is received in vain. In other words without obedience or yielding to grace there is no corresponding effect produced.

The Bible teaches...

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

The grace of God that brings salvation firstly appears to all men. Secondly this grace of God that brings salvation teaches us how to walk. We are to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live soberly, righteously and godly in the present. It is in yielding to this teaching by faith that we are transformed from a sinner to a saint. If one refuses to yield themselves to grace they remain a sinner. This is why there is no condemnation to those who are IN Christ Jesus, those who WALK after the Spirit, those in whom the righteousness of the law is fulfilled IN them.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You see righteousness is through the faith of Jesus Christ, an abiding faith of walking in the Spirit, a righteousness apart from the law through faith but of a faith which establishes the law in the heart (because faith works by love, Gal 5:6).

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

We are not justified by the deeds of the law (outward service of law keeping) but rather by a faith that works by love (Gal 5:6, Rom 4:6), a faith that WALKS (Rom 4:12) because it is active.

Jesus is the sin offering provided by God through which we can approach the Father via the blood of Christ with a true heart (Heb 10:19-22, 1Joh 1:7-10) and receive a cleansing of past criminal conduct and be given a fresh start whereby we walk by faith. There is no boasting in such a thing because it is only by the mercy of God that such a means is provided us. There is no work we can do that can undo our past crimes against God and thus redemption (the purchase from condemnation) is ONLY through Jesus Christ (ie. we cannot purchase ourselves). We forsake sin as being our master (we stop obeying sin) and we submit ourselves to our new master (Jesus Christ) whereby (and IN whom) we serve righteousness. Thus is we believe in Jesus (which means we abide in Him) we shall be saved.

Two excellent posts that very clearly articulates the scriptural understanding of grace, faith and works.

 

[mailmandan]

The message of Paul and James is the same message. James is simply reinforcing the truth that faith is active as opposed to being passive. Thus an individual with saving faith is a doer of the word and not a hearer only.

I'm not hearing anyone say that saving faith is a passive faith and the individual is merely a hearer of the word and not a doer. Being a doer of the word is the demonstrative evidence that we have saving faith in Christ.

The foundation of this error is firstly the doctrine of Original Sin which teaches that human beings lack the ability to obey God thus faith cannot possibly be active because taking action requires ability. Thus an individual merely "trusts in something" and then WAITS for "someone else to do the action for them." Yet this is erroneous because in the faith chapter of Hebrews we see how genuine faith is connected to DOING and that it is through the DOING that God effectually brings about salvation. I of course am alluding to Noah BUILDING the ark by faith. The faith of Noah was an ACTIVE faith whereupon he put the grace of God to effectual use, had he not done so he would have perished with those who drowned. Noah believed and trusted God and therefore he ACTIVELY WALKED by faith.

Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His DOING was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. We are saved through faith at it's origin and not some time later by works. If Noah had refused to build the ark, then he would have DEMONSTRATED a lack of faith, but that was not the case. Abraham was accounted as righteous through faith in Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3 many years before his DOING in Genesis 22; James 2:21.

What the Reformers did was take the Satisfaction View of Anselm (which taught that the death of Christ served as a counterbalance to the forgiveness of sins due to the infinite merit of Christ) and add a Penal element to it where they taught that Jesus was literally punished by God and therefore absorbed the wrath of God due the sinner. Thus in effect a "legal transaction" is taught to have taken place where the sinner swaps places with Jesus, Jesus being credited with the sins of the sinner and punished for them, the sinner being credited with the obedient track record of Jesus and deemed righteous for it. Thus "trusting in Jesus" by "faith alone" (passive faith) is the basis of salvation under this teaching.

We are saved through trusting in Jesus "FAITH IN CHRIST ALONE" for salvation *not to be confused with (faith that remains alone--barren of works), yet this living faith is not a dead, passive faith. Believers are credited as righteous. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by God. "Imputed, credited, reckoned, accounted." This word is used in both financial and legal settings and means to take something that belongs to someone and credit to another's account.

The truth though is that human beings are neither born disabled in regards to being able to obey God nor was there any legal transaction effected with the cross.

Humans are born with a fallen sinful nature. Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Do unbelievers obey God? Without faith it's impossible to please God. We are not born with faith, but with a fallen sinful nature. We don't come to Christ unless the Father draws us and enables us (John 6:44,65). We are disabled until we are born again. Imputed righteousness is a legal transaction effected with the cross. 1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The cross effected a purchase of a people unto righteousness from a condemned state of serving unrighteousness. The death of Christ brought into effect the New Covenant which people could be enjoined to. Thus if people would repent and forsake their evil ways and come clean with God confessing the evil they had done, confessing their past rebellion, God is willing to forgive them and give them a fresh start in which they are empowered by His Spirit to walk in victory over the works of the devil just like Jesus walked in victory.

Romans 6:18 - and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Apparently, you seem to believe that it's our sinless perfect victorious walk that saves us and not our faith in Christ. You seem to reject imputed righteousness for our own righteousness.

Salvation by grace to faith simply means we are saved by the active working dynamic of wholeheartedly yielding ourselves to the grace of God which is effectual in transforming the soul unto the likeness of Jesus Christ. This is why Paul associates grace with the quickening in Eph 2:5...

Saved by grace THROUGH FAITH means we are saved by trusting exclusively in Christ as the all sufficient means of our salvation and not in our works. You seem to believe that through sinless perfection, your soul will be transformed into the likeness of Jesus Christ and based on your perfection you will be saved.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This does not equate to salvation through sinless perfection. On Bibleforums.org, there was a person who's teachings were similar to yours. He was a follower of Watchman Nee and was a huge advocate of salvation through sinless perfection.

When Paul says "not of works" he is referring to the notion that one can be saved by "obeying the Mosaic law" which is set apart from this transforming dynamic which changes the heart.

This transforming dynamic which changes the heart is what we are saved FOR and not by. The Mosaic law includes the moral aspect of the law. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian accomplish that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). So "not of works" is not simply limited merely to specific works in the law of Moses, but is talking works in general. Paul also said, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us (Titus 3:5) He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works (2 Timothy 1:9). The not saved by works of the law vs. saved by good works argument (which is taught in Roman Catholicism) is bogus.

We are saved by grace THROUGH faith and not of ourselves because without the effectual working and empowerment of the grace of God there is simply nothing else by which to lead the hearts of men.

Not of ourselves, it is the gift of God. NOT BY WORKS.. This is not hard to understand, just hard for you to ACCEPT.

Grace could be likened to the electrical current which allows a light globe to shine whilst faith could be likened to plugging in the light globe to the socket. Not of works would be to try and make the light globe shine apart from plugging it in, something which is impossible. That is why without Jesus Christ we can do nothing.

We have access by faith into grace (Romans 5:2). Faith is the channel through which God's grace flows.

Thus James when he teaches that faith without works is dead is simply teaching that faith is not passive. One must be a doer of the word and not a hearer only because it is in the doing that the transformation of an individual can take place.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says he has faith but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

This is why Paul writes...2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. Without "working together" with God grace is simply received in vain, or to no working effect. Nothing is produced.

In 1 Corinthians 15:1 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. The people who failed to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe). To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14).

Many use 2 Cor 5:21 as a proof text for the legal exchange of Penal Substitution when it actually says no such thing. What it does refer to is how we are MADE RIGHTEOUS IN HIM via grace THROUGH faith whereby we are quickened unto newness of life.

This means that just as God imputed our sin and guilt to Christ (He made Him to be sin) so God imputes the righteousness of Christ (a righteousness that is not our own) to all who believe in Christ for salvation (Romans 4:5-6). Not our own righteousness, but the righteousness of God IN HIM (Philippians 3:9).

I hope people consider these things because it is the truth and it is what the Bible teaches. Christians obey God and walk according to His will. Christian's are inwardly pure due to this obedient walk because the grace of God IS effectual in transforming the heart of men. If there is no transformation then there is no salvation, therefore don't fall for any religious system which teaches that one can be saved and still evil, such a position is no salvation at all.

Christians obey God but this does not mean they are sinless and perfect 100% of the time, exactly as Jesus was. If there is no transformation then this demonstrates that salvation never took place. Nobody is teaching saved but still evil. To the contrary, in 1 John 3:7-10, we read - 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

 

[JesusLives]

I have found that I am weak and most definitely in need of a Savior, that I have in the past lacked in faith, but the thing that keeps me going on now day by day is knowing without a doubt that when I am faithless that God is most definitely faithful. So any faith that I have developed of late is because I know that I can trust God to always be faithful when I am not. I lean on Him and count on Him to continue to hold onto me and not to let me go.

I can believe that and in that area my faith is not nor ever will be shaken. I used to think How could I die for God? Could I? Would I die for Him if it was a choice renounce God or die? Now with knowing that God is and has always been faithful to me that He has always loved me I say to myself I can believe in a God that does this and I would die if needed for this God because of who and what He is because He is faithful. I can build my faith on and in Him and it is because of His love not mine. God is love and He always gives His love to us. I can only dream to learn to love Him back the way that I should.

Don't know if this makes any sense to you guys but it is the way I feel....and I am eternally grateful to God for all He has done for me.

 

[royalscot]

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience,31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?"
35 "Or who has given a gift to him
Romans 11

 

[pickles]

What a genuine believer means by faith (belief, trust, reliance) IN CHRIST ALONE for salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9) and what James means by faith THAT REMAINS ALONE (barren of works) is not the same message. So when a genuine believer says that we are saved through "faith alone," they are not saying that we are saved by the "kind" of faith that "remains alone" (barren of works). Saving faith results in good works, so it's not alone in that sense but it's the faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ part of the equation that "alone" saves as the instrumental means. Good works are the fruit, by-product and demonstrative evidence of our faith, but they are not the means of our salvation. The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith IN CHRIST ALONE conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith IN CHRIST ALONE (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). Simple!

Love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary, love will still be the governing principle that controls all that God and his redeemed people are and do. Faith works through love, yet we won't need faith and hope in heaven.

I hope I did not give the impression that Im saying that it is faith alone, the intention of the faith alone was to speak to how faith must nver be alone, for it is essential to all we seek in Jesus, word, works.
But I did want to speak to how there are times where faith is what keeps us, even when all else fails or is made corrupt or questioned by those or that which seeks to destroy.
And If I misread you, please forgive me, I am dislexic, so I struggle to comprehend what another has written some times.
And I agree, love is the greatest, faith and hope are what brings us to know the perfect love.
Heaven is trully this love.

God bless
pickles

 

[pickles]

I have found that I am weak and most definitely in need of a Savior, that I have in the past lacked in faith, but the thing that keeps me going on now day by day is knowing without a doubt that when I am faithless that God is most definitely faithful. So any faith that I have developed of late is because I know that I can trust God to always be faithful when I am not. I lean on Him and count on Him to continue to hold onto me and not to let me go.

I can believe that and in that area my faith is not nor ever will be shaken. I used to think How could I die for God? Could I? Would I die for Him if it was a choice renounce God or die? Now with knowing that God is and has always been faithful to me that He has always loved me I say to myself I can believe in a God that does this and I would die if needed for this God because of who and what He is because He is faithful. I can build my faith on and in Him and it is because of His love not mine. God is love and He always gives His love to us. I can only dream to learn to love Him back the way that I should.

Don't know if this makes any sense to you guys but it is the way I feel....and I am eternally grateful to God for all He has done for me.

Thankyou all for the words given in your posts, I am greatful for them.

Jesuslives, the faith you have witnessed to here is the faith I hoped to spaek to as well.

The importance of speaking to faith has been set upon me constantly for some time now.
The best way I can explain it is as though the message of faith is pleading through me to others.
Not because we exclude anything else given in scriptures, but because faith is essentual, will be needed, must be made unshakable in each of us.

Anyway, that is the best way I can explain it.


Thankyou again all of you for your posts.

in Jesus, God bless
pickles

 

[newbirth]

What a genuine believer means by faith (belief, trust, reliance) IN CHRIST ALONE for salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9) and what James means by faith THAT REMAINS ALONE (barren of works) is not the same message. So when a genuine believer says that we are saved through "faith alone," they are not saying that we are saved by the "kind" of faith that "remains alone" (barren of works). Saving faith results in good works, so it's not alone in that sense but it's the faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ part of the equation that "alone" saves as the instrumental means. Good works are the fruit, by-product and demonstrative evidence of our faith, but they are not the means of our salvation. The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith IN CHRIST ALONE conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith IN CHRIST ALONE (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). Simple!

Love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary, love will still be the governing principle that controls all that God and his redeemed people are and do. Faith works through love, yet we won't need faith and hope in heaven.

Ephesians 4:4-6King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
[SUP]5 [/SUP]One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


you are saying there are two types of faith? a faith without works and a faith with works???and the faith without works is the one that saves you....the scripture says there is one faith....is dead without works.....

 

[mailmandan]

Ephesians 4:4-6King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
[SUP]5 [/SUP]One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

One Lord, one faith, one baptism. 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.. This is Spirit baptism, not water baptism.

you are saying there are two types of faith? a faith without works and a faith with works???and the faith without works is the one that saves you....the scripture says there is one faith....is dead without works.....

The type of faith that saves trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation and this type of faith is accompanied by works. The other type of faith that does not save is an empty profession of faith, a dead faith that is not accompanied by works. Genuine faith (root of salvation) is evidenced by works (fruit of salvation) but we are still saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Will you ever figure this out?

 

[newbirth]

One Lord, one faith, one baptism. 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.. This is Spirit baptism, not water baptism.

The type of faith that saves trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation and this type of faith is accompanied by works. The other type of faith that does not save is an empty profession of faith, a dead faith that is not accompanied by works. Genuine faith (root of salvation) is evidenced by works (fruit of salvation) but we are still saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Will you ever figure this out?

there is nothing to figure out. there is one faith...and that faith is dead without works....
Christ commanded us to preach the gospel and to baptise ....when you can spirit baptise someone then you can tell me it is not water baptism he is talking about...until then it is water he is talking about...

 

[Cassian]

One Lord, one faith, one baptism. 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.. This is Spirit baptism, not water baptism.

Since Pentecost there has been ONLY ONE baptism and it has been water baptism. Why would you think that the Holy would not use water. He used spit to heal the blind man.

The type of faith that saves trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation and this type of faith is accompanied by works. The other type of faith that does not save is an empty profession of faith, a dead faith that is not accompanied by works. Genuine faith (root of salvation) is evidenced by works (fruit of salvation) but we are still saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Will you ever figure this out?

You and a few others are the only one's going in circles.

You hold to a satisfaction theory that says justification means salvation. It only means that in the theory, not in scripture.
And scripture does not separate justification from sanctification either.

 

[elf3]

Since Pentecost there has been ONLY ONE baptism and it has been water baptism. Why would you think that the Holy would not use water. He used spit to heal the blind man.

You and a few others are the only one's going in circles.

You hold to a satisfaction theory that says justification means salvation. It only means that in the theory, not in scripture.
And scripture does not separate justification from sanctification either.

In what way do you mean "Scripture does not separate justification and sanctification"?

 

[Jackson123]

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Grace is received for obedience because without obedience grace is received in vain. In other words without obedience or yielding to grace there is no corresponding effect produced.
The Bible teaches...

.

I don't know if obedience first or faith first. It said obedience to the Faith

Is obedience to the faith have the same meaning obedience to the Lord? I thing Obedience to the faith will produce obedience to the Lord but do not have the same meaning.

I believe obedience is fruit. One must abide first to the vine then bear the fruit.

If follow your order it will be:

Obedience > receive Grace > save. Am I right?
I believe the order is:

Faith > salvation and fruit.

Obedience is one of the fruit.

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

 

[Wormwood]

I appreciate what this thread speaks to and I respect the value of faith as long as it does not destroy the pursuit of knowledge and wisdom. Faith and reason are essential to evangelizing. We should not default to willful ignorance out of faith.

 

[newbirth]

I don't know if obedience first or faith first. It said obedience to the Faith

Is obedience to the faith have the same meaning obedience to the Lord? I thing Obedience to the faith will produce obedience to the Lord but do not have the same meaning.

I believe obedience is fruit. One must abide first to the vine then bear the fruit.

If follow your order it will be:

Obedience > receive Grace > save. Am I right?
I believe the order is:

Faith > salvation and fruit.

Obedience is one of the fruit.

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Grace is Christ drawing all men to him......grace first

John 12:31-33King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]This he said, signifying what death he should die.




then faith comes by hearing .......
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

then obedience of faith....
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

[SUP]37 [/SUP]Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

[Jackson123]

Grace is Christ drawing all men to him......grace first

John 12:31-33King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]This he said, signifying what death he should die.




then faith comes by hearing .......
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

then obedience of faith....
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

[SUP]37 [/SUP]Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Thank for the correction.

I agree grace first. but not obedience first.

so the order must be:

Grace > faith will produce salvation and fruit where obedience is include in the category of fruit.