Works and Salvation

[kennethcadwell]

so then why do we pay to keep paying a debt which is already paid in full?

ps, I agree with you, that is what it means.

did you know in Jesus day, A criminal who was convicted of a crime, who had paid his debt to society carried a card which had the word tetelestai and the crime of which he was convicted. Thus he could never be judged, or convicted of this crime again, it was as if he never did the crime to begin with?

The dept that was paid in full, was the dept owed for our sins.
We are covered by that payment that Jesus did for us, by our faith and obedience to Him to repent of our sins.

We have the same type system in place today, it is called double jeopardy. Rather some one is found guilty or not of a crime, they can not be charged for that crime again. They can however be charged with a new crime they commit, just like they could back then.
It is people who hold others still guilty of a crime they commit after serving their time, not God.

There is no need for animal sacrifices all the time for sins, for Jesus became that sacrifice once and for all.
We have to repent of our sins, and still ask forgiveness of future sins to show our love and respect for the Lord for what He did for us. Confession, baptism, and helping others in need are other ways we show that love and respect for Him.
We are to honor Him in every aspect of our lives. To not honor Him means we still are denying Him working in our lives.

Now to go to the final point to go with this, when He said it is finished, He was not talking about the moral law of God.
He was talking about His blood sacrifice that gave us a way to truly be forgiven of sins and reconciled to God.
If He was talking about the moral aspects that thought right from wrong, He would not have expounded on the law like He did when He said hatred is the same as murder, and lusting in the heart is already adultery.
Plus on further in the NT it states that those who still live in willful unrepented sin will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.


[h=1]1 Corinthians 6:9-11[/h] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.



We were washed because of our faith in Jesus, and repentance of our sins.

 

[Hizikyah]

Yahchanan (John) 5:14, Afterward, Yahshua found him in the sacred precincts and said to him: Behold, you are healed. Sin no more, or a worse thing will come upon you.

"1 Yahchanan (John) 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yahchanan (John) 5:14, Afterward, Yahshua found him in the sacred precincts and said to him: Behold, you are healed. Sin no more, or a worse thing will come upon you.

"1 Yahchanan (John) 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

The first scripture you gave is about if one returns to willful sin, and lets it reign in their body to where they obey it instead of obeying the Lord. They will not have salvation.

Sin is the transgression of the law, and we all will sin from time to time. As in backslide, but we have a Lord who is just and if we repent and ask forgiveness of our sins He will forgive us.

 

[Hizikyah]

The first scripture you gave is about if one returns to willful sin, and lets it reign in their body to where they obey it instead of obeying the Lord. They will not have salvation.

Sin is the transgression of the law, and we all will sin from time to time. As in backslide, but we have a Lord who is just and if we repent and ask forgiveness of our sins He will forgive us.

1 John (Yahchanan) 1:7-9:, "But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Yahshua Messiah His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Law is not in us."

Can you tell me what this one means?

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

 

[kennethcadwell]

1 John (Yahchanan) 1:7-9:, "But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Yahshua Messiah His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Law is not in us."

Can you tell me what this one means?

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Those who continue to walk in willful sin will never be known by the Lord our God in a personal relationship. For they follow their master satan, instead of the Lord.
Then you have it like our Lord said, that those who do things for their own personal gratification, gain, recognition instead of out of love for Him also will be told to go away.
Matthew 25 shows parables that all speak the same way, that only those who are obedient to Him will be welcomed.

 

[Hizikyah]

Those who continue to walk in willful sin will never be known by the Lord our God in a personal relationship. For they follow their master satan, instead of the Lord.
Then you have it like our Lord said, that those who do things for their own personal gratification, gain, recognition instead of out of love for Him also will be told to go away.
Matthew 25 shows parables that all speak the same way, that only those who are obedient to Him will be welcomed.

While I agree with, "those who do things for their own personal gratification, gain, recognition instead of out of love for Him" are dangerously on the wrong path. I dont see that is Mt 7:23.

I see the Messiah saying those that don't subject themselves to His Father's Law will be rejected.

Plain and simple. He gives the reason clearly: "you who practice iniquity"

So the only question is what is iniquity? (Greek Word Study the condition of without law)

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

 

[kennethcadwell]

While I agree with, "those who do things for their own personal gratification, gain, recognition instead of out of love for Him" are dangerously on the wrong path. I dont see that is Mt 7:23.

I see the Messiah saying those that don't subject themselves to His Father's Law will be rejected.

Plain and simple. He gives the reason clearly: "you who practice iniquity"

So the only question is what is iniquity? (Greek Word Study the condition of without law)

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

I see where you are going, but we have to look at Matthew 22 to see who He is talking to.
This group of people were saying have we not done these things in your name. He says to them get away from me, I never knew you because they truly did not do it in His name.
Just because you say His name when doing things, is it really for Him or for you ?

In other words somebody can do an exorcism, and say to the demon I cast you out in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
But if they are doing the exorcism for their own recognition, and earn gratitude from others, or if they are doing it like some now days are doing to earn money. Then it is truly not for the Lord, but themselves.

 

[Hizikyah]

I see where you are going, but we have to look at Matthew 22 to see who He is talking to.
This group of people were saying have we not done these things in your name. He says to them get away from me, I never knew you because they truly did not do it in His name.
Just because you say His name when doing things, is it really for Him or for you ?

In other words somebody can do an exorcism, and say to the demon I cast you out in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
But if they are doing the exorcism for their own recognition, and earn gratitude from others, or if they are doing it like some now days are doing to earn money. Then it is truly not for the Lord, but themselves.

Matt 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me; Teacher! Teacher! will enter into the Kingdom ofYahweh, but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day; Teacher! Teacher! Have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and in Your Name performed many wonderful works? 23 But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

"21 Not everyone who says to Me; Teacher! Teacher! will enter into the Kingdom ofYahweh, but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven."

So out of all the people who call upon the Messiah, only those who do the will of His Father enter the kingdom of Yahweh

"22 Many will say to Me in that day; Teacher! Teacher! Have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and in Your Name performed many wonderful works?"

These people claimed to have done great works in the Name of the Messiah, but nothing more is stated in this verse, just a person saying they have done great works.

"23 But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

Then the Messiah clearly states why. Because of iniquity. If iniquity is "not being subject to Yahweh's Law" is it safe to say that whatever works these people did were not in accordance with what Yahweh said? If it were about said peoples motives for said works do you not think Messiah would have made that clear? We cant put anything on the verse that is not written?


And I have many Scriptures supporting, there is not a single Scripture of Messiah ever saying not to follow Yahweh's Law, even in Revelation which is post Sacrifice the Messiah still says to keep Yahweh's Law. And Since Yahshua is the One Yahweh's said we MUST OBEY, I will listen to Him.

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

Isayah 8:20, "To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

"Laws" is word #1785 entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Revelation 14:12, "In this manner are the saints purified--by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, (in conformity) with the faith in Yahshua Messiah."

"Laws" is word #1785 entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

 

[Hizikyah]

love

Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Romans 13:9-10, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are briefly summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

1 Corinthians 2:9, "But as it is written: Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the mind of man the things which Yahweh has prepared for those who love Him."

1 Yahchanan (John) 2:4, "He who says: I know Him, but does not keep His Law, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

 

[kennethcadwell]

Matt 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me; Teacher! Teacher! will enter into the Kingdom ofYahweh, but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day; Teacher! Teacher! Have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and in Your Name performed many wonderful works? 23 But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

"21 Not everyone who says to Me; Teacher! Teacher! will enter into the Kingdom ofYahweh, but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven."

So out of all the people who call upon the Messiah, only those who do the will of His Father enter the kingdom of Yahweh

"22 Many will say to Me in that day; Teacher! Teacher! Have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and in Your Name performed many wonderful works?"

These people claimed to have done great works in the Name of the Messiah, but nothing more is stated in this verse, just a person saying they have done great works.

"23 But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

Then the Messiah clearly states why. Because of iniquity. If iniquity is "not being subject to Yahweh's Law" is it safe to say that whatever works these people did were not in accordance with what Yahweh said? If it were about said peoples motives for said works do you not think Messiah would have made that clear? We cant put anything on the verse that is not written?


And I have many Scriptures supporting, there is not a single Scripture of Messiah ever saying not to follow Yahweh's Law, even in Revelation which is post Sacrifice the Messiah still says to keep Yahweh's Law. And Since Yahshua is the One Yahweh's said we MUST OBEY, I will listen to Him.

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

Isayah 8:20, "To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

"Laws" is word #1785 entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Revelation 14:12, "In this manner are the saints purified--by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, (in conformity) with the faith in Yahshua Messiah."

"Laws" is word #1785 entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Yes, but one must understand the context of the how law is used in the scriptures.
There are some scriptures that point to the moral laws of God, and others that point to the written ordinances of the mosaic law.
When the scriptures say we are not under the law, or that the works of it does not save. It is referring to the written ordinances of the mosaic law. Following and doing the cleansing rituals, animal sacrifices, keeping feast days, and so forth will not save anybody.
Following the moral values to abstain from doing things that are wrong, and to walk in a proper manner is to show love and obedience to the Lord. In other words by your actions you do this;

Matthew 22:37
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

 

[Hizikyah]

Yes, but one must understand the context of the how law is used in the scriptures.
There are some scriptures that point to the moral laws of God, and others that point to the written ordinances of the mosaic law.
When the scriptures say we are not under the law, or that the works of it does not save. It is referring to the written ordinances of the mosaic law. Following and doing the cleansing rituals, animal sacrifices, keeping feast days, and so forth will not save anybody.
Following the moral values to abstain from doing things that are wrong, and to walk in a proper manner is to show love and obedience to the Lord. In other words by your actions you do this;

First, you didnt address anything the Messiah said, we went into abstract mode...

Really none of the Law can save, only Yahweh can. However that does not mean we reject His Instructions. Very simple example... In modern time we use a Babylonain calendar, this is wrong. If we are followers of the Creator we should use His calendar not the calendar of one that hates Him. And if only for the reason of abiding in everything He says, ok. But there is more what if keeping His calendar helps one keep in touch with Him and be aware of the signs of the times... OK, Feasts... so how are the Feasts done away when all of them are not even fulfilled yet? Messiah did not YET return... And why not celebrate what the Messiah has done and will do as opposed to celebrating what Constantine brought in, Easter the celebration of the goddess of fertility. Eggs n ham or passover Lamb? The great work was not Jesus cleansing the pig...

Without the Law of Yahweh there is NO LOVE:

Leviticus 19:18, "Do not seek revenge nor bear a grudge against one of your own people; but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am Yahweh."

1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Romans 13:9, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are briefly summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself."

1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

because iniquity will abound

Matthew 22:37
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

and the most important question of all: should I take advice on how to love Yahweh... from Yahweh?

1 Corinthians 2:9, "But as it is written: Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the mind of man the things which Yahweh has prepared for those who love Him."

Exodus 20:6, "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws."

Deuteronomy 10:12-13, "And now, O Israyl, what does Yahweh your Father require of you, but to reverence Yahweh your Father by walking in all His ways, by loving Him, by serving Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul. By keeping the Laws of Yahweh, with His statutes, which I command you this day, so that you may be blessed?"

1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

Mattithyah 22:37, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might."

Revelation 21:3-4, "And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of Yahweh is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and Yahweh Himselfwill be with them, and be their Father. And Yahweh will wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there will be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, nor will there be any more pain, for the former things have passed away."

 

[Hizikyah]

Following the moral values to abstain from doing things that are wrong, and to walk in a proper manner is to show love and obedience to the Lord. In other words by your actions you do this;

Yes this is beautiful, I would like if this was taught at a church!

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yes this is beautiful, I would like if this was taught at a church!

I would to, which is why I try over and over again to say this, or try to show it in how I respond to others.
The denominations in the church have gotten so far away from this, and to either a watered down version of the gospel, or a view point that you can do what ever you want under Christ. Giving a free reign to stay in willful sin, which is not biblical. It has gone so far that now some denominations are allowing gay relationships as acceptable in church.

I am not about keeping a gay person from coming to church to know about the Lord, for we are told not to restrict anybody from coming to church. However that does not mean we have to go as far as condone and accept the lifestyle, or do as some of them are doing and even marrying them.

But back to the original meaning at hand, we are to go with what the Lord said over what anybody else said.
If He says those who are His will do something, and those who are not His will not. Then we know that those who say we don't need to do this or that, still have areas they need to work on.

 

[Hizikyah]

I would to, which is why I try over and over again to say this, or try to show it in how I respond to others.
The denominations in the church have gotten so far away from this, and to either a watered down version of the gospel, or a view point that you can do what ever you want under Christ. Giving a free reign to stay in willful sin, which is not biblical. It has gone so far that now some denominations are allowing gay relationships as acceptable in church.

I am not about keeping a gay person from coming to church to know about the Lord, for we are told not to restrict anybody from coming to church. However that does not mean we have to go as far as condone and accept the lifestyle, or do as some of them are doing and even marrying them.

But back to the original meaning at hand, we are to go with what the Lord said over what anybody else said.
If He says those who are His will do something, and those who are not His will not. Then we know that those who say we don't need to do this or that, still have areas they need to work on.

Certainly we all still have areas to work on.

I agree with what you said, I want to add to it. "not to restrict anybody from coming to church" in Acts they talked about the same thing, and our opinion is way more relaxed than what they decided in Acts 15. But the big difference I imagine is that back then if there was no life changing fruits showing after a while they probably kicked you out. Im trying to say, come as you are has turned into stay as you are. If you think about it, there is only one standard, if one is not using the Law of the Creator they have made up their own path. But actually saying this has become to be viewed as evil....

Isayah 5:20, "Woe to those who call evil righteous, and righteous evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

Isayah 8:20, "To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Jesus said "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you:...."

Just curious
Did you think JESUS was talking about physical meat?Why would GOD need to see physical works?James was telling men that if their faith was true that it would produce works seen by men,but salvation is given by GOD not men.

nowhere does the scripture teach that faith produce works...it teaches if you have faith and no works your faith is dead...which means you have to do the work...look at the example again....
[SUP]
14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

he does not say faith give them those things...or faith produce those things...the same way you have to do the works

faith without work is dead,work does not produce faith but true faith will produce work.
I thought you would surely easily understand this basic that believers should already know when James says that faith without work is dead because me and you are believers brother.

Someone asked you"what if we died before we had a chance to do physical work" would we be saved?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

You guys are strugglin with the thief, so I'll give you the defining verses from Jesus HIMSELF and we can put this puppy to rest
once and for all.

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Ball game gentlemen. It's a wrap.

I think they are not looking closely at this verse and might be thinking the work of GOD needs to be physical since it did say that this is the work of GOD.IDK why they don't seem to accept work of GOD is to believe in GODs word.

 

[Hizikyah]

listen to, obey

We must hear AND obey

belief and action

faith and works

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 שָׁמַע shama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

 

[Hizikyah]

Yaaqob 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."

Hebrew 11:6, "For without the faith it is impossible to please Him; for he who comes to Yahweh must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."

Habakkuk 2:4, "Behold the proud, his soul is not right in him; but the just will live by the faith (H#530 faith/faithfulness)."

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, steadiness

Messiah speaking:

Yahchanan (John) 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

 

[newbirth]

faith without work is dead,work does not produce faith but true faith will produce work.
I thought you would surely easily understand this basic that believers should already know when James says that faith without work is dead because me and you are believers brother.

where does the scripture say ....

true faith will produce work.

Someone asked you"what if we died before we had a chance to do physical work" would we be saved?

how many chances did you throw away before you obeyed the word...I rejected God's word many times before submitting to him...people are trying to make it look as though someone in that position would be hearing the scripture or the very first time...no one will have an excuse the word will be preached to everyman...

 

[forsha]

The truth is very simple and all the debate is simply a result of people who will not accept the plain meaning of the text.

When the Bible speaks of "not of works" it is simply a reference that "obedience to rules does not effect inward change." When the Bible teaches "saved by grace THROUGH faith" it is speaking of the actual dynamic of transformation which is simply "a heart yielded to God."

The meaning of salvation is in the context of being "saved from sin." The means by which we are "saved from sin" is through a total heart transformation or in other words being "born again to the Spirit." Thus when a repentant sinner comes clean with God and submits themselves to His lead then the power of God will manifest through that person and the love of God will be wrought in their heart.

Salvation is a present active manifest state of abiding in the will of God wholeheartedly. Such a state is only wrought through godly sorrow working repentance unto salvation, a repentance which necessitates a change in action because the iniquity (ie. selfish motive to sin) is purged from the heart permanently. The wild horse is broken and a submissive spirit of born THEN God empowers the individual to be an overcomer because they have RECEIVED the implanted word which can save the soul.



There are many whom are deceived and associate "works" with "doing." They are wrong. The "works" that have no bearing on salvation are works done apart from the grace (or leading) of God. Thus one cannot save themselves via a performance that is not in cooperation with God. Yet one can save themselves by abiding/cooperating with God and thus allowing God to work in them whereby true transformation takes place. This is why Jesus taught we must abide in Him and it is why Paul taught that the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ is what sets us free.

Many wolves in the world treat salvation as some kind of abstract package which is to be "trusted in" whilst they are still manifestly wicked. These people are still "workers of iniquity" because the selfish motive of sin was never purged from the heart in a genuine repentance experience and therefore they easily buy into a false salvation message which disconnects salvation from a manifest condition of a heart, a condition whereby the heart is pure.

The bottom line is that heart purity it utterly rejected by these people and heart purity is a subject they simply cannot discuss because to do so utterly undermines their belief system.

I hope this helps.

Thanks.

You have used Eph 2:8, which says "For by grace are ye saved THROUGH faith. If you are claiming this faith as being man's faith, you are wrong. It is referring to the faithfulness of Christ in his obedience to go to the cross. Gal 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith "OF" Jesus Christ, Christ's faith. even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith "OF" Christ, and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Some translations have changed the word "OF" to "IN", which takes Jesus's faith away from him and gives it to man. Man does not even have "faith" until he is born of the Spirit, because "faith" is a fruit of the Spirit, Gal 5:22.