Why War in Heaven?

kennethcadwell · Nov 6, 2014

Finally something we see eye to eye on, lol.

There is two events that are mentioned regarding our Lord in the last days.
The gathering of the church ( body of believers ), and His second coming.

The issue that people have though is when the rapture occurs, in which some try to even say there is no such thing.
There are two problems with that though;
1) The scripture in rapture that says satan will not prevail against His chosen elect.
2) The scriptures that say we the believers ( true church ) will not suffer or face God's wrath on earth.

Hince can not be here.

Kerry · Nov 6, 2014

Jason0047 said:

You are mixing the two events, The rapture is not the second coming, You skipped Thessalonians 4, reckon why.

It is proven scripture that the dead in Christ shall rise first ( what does that mean) and we which remain shall be caught up and changed in the twinkling of an eye. Christ shall appear in the air ( Greek AER which means above 6,000 feet and clearly not His return as He doe's not touch Earth). So When is the restrainer (Holy Spirit and church removed) after His return? it don't make since, Jesus returns and the Holy Spirit is removed along with the church why Jesus is here why remove it?

Jesus said that we are the salt of the Earth, salt is a preservative that wards of infection. The church must be removed ( rapture) in order for Satan to aquire full power over the world. The only thing holding him back is the preaching of the gospel. As you can see in our country as self help is preached in most churches that our country has sunk into sin and rejection of God. The only thing keeping us is that some churches still preach the gospel yet they are far and few between and by the Gospel I mean Christ and him crucified. I meant most Americans go to church but vote for gay rights and abortion and smoking pot and Sunday liqour sales, they are not taught the gospel.

The church must be removed or do you think that God will pour out His Judgement on people that love Him and obey Him? He didn't do it in the OT so what makes people think He will in the NT?

Kerry · Nov 6, 2014

Done for the night, got to get up at 5:00 am Eastern. Love ya brother Jason. night.

Jason0047 · Nov 6, 2014

Long Version: (Part 1):

[TABLE="class: tborder, width: 100%, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="class: alt1, bgcolor: #F6F6F6"]The Rapture:
(The 1st Rapture or Translation of the Saints):

Description of the Rapture:

• 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

• 1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Clues Concerning the Rapture:

• John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

• Isaiah 26:20 NLT

Go home, my people, and lock your doors! Hide yourselves for a little while until the LORD’s anger has passed.

• Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

• Hebrews 9:28 ESV

So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Promise of the Rapture:
(A Deliverance of the Wrath to Come):

• 1 Thessalonians 1:10

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

• 1 Thessalonians 5:9

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Admonishes about being ready for the Rapture:
(In order to miss out on the 7 Year Tribulation):

• Luke 21:34-36

And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always,that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

• Revelation 3:10

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Jason0047 · Nov 6, 2014

Long Version: (Part 2):

[TABLE="class: tborder, width: 100%, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="class: alt1, bgcolor: #F6F6F6"]

The Second Coming of Christ:
(The Lord Appears in the Clouds Coming in Great Power & Glory):

• Revelation 16:15

The Sixth Vial (Part 3)

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

• Revelation 1:7 NIV

Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him.

• Matthew 24:27

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

• Mark 13:26

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

•Luke 17:24

For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

• Luke 21:27

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

• Isaiah 26:21a NLT

Look! The LORD is coming from heaven to punish the people of the earth for their sins.

• Psalm 96:13 NKJV

For He is coming, for He is coming to judge the earth. He shall judge the world with righteousness

• Matthew 24:30b

And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn

• Revelation 19:11-13 and Revelation 19:15-16

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

• 1 Timothy 6:14 NLT and 1 Timothy 6:15 NKJV

Our Lord Jesus Christ comes again...
He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Certain Saints in Heaven Are Made Ready For The Marriage Supper of The Lamb:

• Revelation 19:6-8 HCS and Revelation 19:9 NIV

Then I heard something like the voice of a vast multitude, like the sound of cascading waters, and like the rumbling of loud thunder, saying:

"Hallelujah, because our Lord God, the Almighty, has begun to reign! Let us be glad, rejoice, and give Him glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has prepared herself. She was given fine linen to wear, bright and pure. For the fine linen represents the righteous acts of the saints."

Then the angel said to me,

“Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!’”

The Lord Gathers His Elect For the Upcoming Battle:
(The Call to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb):
(The 2nd Rapture or Translation of the Saints):
(And The End of the Surviving Tribulation Saint's 1,335 Day of Testing):

• Luke 12:36

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

Daniel 12:12 ISV and Daniel 12:12 NIV

Blessed is the one who perseveres...and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

• Revelation 14:16

And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

• Matthew 24:31

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

• Mark 13:27

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

• Luke 17:34-37

"I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

And they answered and said unto him,

"Where, Lord?"

And he said unto them,

"Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

• Matthew 24:28

For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

• Revelation 19:17-18 and Revelation 19:14

And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying

"To all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

• Jude 1:14

Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

• Isaiah 31:4 NLT

The LORD of Heaven’s Armies will come down

• Isaiah 26:21b NLT

The earth will no longer hide those who have been killed. They will be brought out for all to see.

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Jason0047 · Nov 6, 2014

Kerry said:

[TABLE="class: tborder, width: 100%, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="class: alt1, bgcolor: #F6F6F6"]
The Dead in Christ Are Taken From Abraham's Bosom By the Rapture:
(Both the Old Testament Saints and Church Age Saints in Abraham's Bosom Are Called to Rise To Meet the Lord in the Air. For in the Rapture: The Dead in Christ Shall Rise First):

• Zechariah 9:11 NIV and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

For... I will free your prisoners from the waterless pit. And with the trump of God... the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air

Commentary - Zechariah 9:11 and Thessalonians 4:16-17

Zechariah 9:11 is a prophetic Old Testament passage about the taking up of the saints from Abraham's bosom.

What is Abraham's Bosom?

Abraham's bosom (which is also known as Paradise) is described in Luke 16:19-31. It is a real place of comfort within the spirit realm; A temporary paradise where the saint's soul and spiritual body resides consciously to be with the Lord when their physical body dies (Genesis 3:19) (Ecclesiastes 12:7) (Luke 16:22). This paradise is located within the realm of the dead below the Earth (Which is also known as Sheol or Hades) which is separated by a great gulf from the fiery place of punishment known as "Torments" or what is commonly known as "Hell" (Luke 16:26) (Luke 16:23). It will be a place where the saint will be comforted (Luke 16:25). But, why is Abraham's bosom also called Paradise? Well, on the day of Christ's sacrifice, he had told the thief on the cross that: "This day, you shall be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). But yet, Scripture tells us that when Christ died, he was in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights, though (Matthew 12:40). So this leads us to conclude that during Christ's three days within the grave before His resurrection, He was with the thief in Abraham's bosom which is located in the heart (or the center) of the Earth.

Does Abraham's Bosom Still Exist Within the Church Age Today?

The real life story (or event) of Luke 16:19-31 took place during the time of Moses (Luke 16:29). However, the important question that must be asked is: Does Abraham's Bosom still exist today, though?

Well, yes, I believe according to the plain reading of Scripture that Abraham's bosom still exists today within our present church age. For all true saints who die in Christ right now will go to be with the Lord down in Abraham's bosom and then later they will be taken up into Heaven when the Rapture occurs. For how else will the dead in Christ rise first? See 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. Do the dead in Christ rise to go to Heaven and then come back down somewhere temporarily to be risen again at the Rapture? Do they rise in Christ twice spiritually? If so, where is the verse that explains this?

In fact, many Christians today who are well versed in studying the Scriptures believe they go straight to Heaven; This is a common misconception because they interpret the ascension of Christ mentioned inEphesians 4:8 as the time of when the saints in Abraham's bosom are being taken to Heaven.

Ephesians 4:8 - "When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive."

In other words, based on this passage, most Christians believe that Christ led those saints who were in captivity in Abraham's bosom captive up into Heaven when Christ ascended. However, is this whatEphesians 4:8 is talking about, though?

No, actually it is actually talking about how when Christ ascended, He bound the enemy or the powers of darkness. How so? Well, our first clue to this fact is to look at the parallel reference of this passage located in Judges chapter five.

Judges 5:12 - "Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead your captives captive, you son of Abinoam."

Now, without boring you with all the details, to make a long story short, if you were to read Judged chapter 5, you would find out that Barak was leading his enemies captive and not his friends. To put it to you another way, the moment a true Christian is born again and then dedicates their life to Christ, they are then no longer Christ's enemy. For those in Abraham's bosom are God's elect or chosen who had put their trust in God to redeem them of their sins (See Luke 16:19-31).

As a matter of fact, Gill's Exposition of the Bible says this...

"He led captivity captive; which is expressive of Christ's conquests and triumph over sin, Satan, the world, death, and the grave; and indeed, every spiritual enemy of his and his people, especially the devil, who leads men captive at his will, and is therefore called captivity, and his principalities and powers, whom Christ has spoiled and triumphed over;"

And 2nd Timothy says this...

2 Timothy 2:26 - "And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. For when Christ had raised from the dead he put all things including the principalities and powers of darkness under his feet."

Therefore, the word "captivity" is a reference to Satan leading people captive to his will and lets us know the true context or meaning behind

Ephesians 4:8.

For when Christ had risen from the dead, He put all things including the principalities and powers of darkness under his feet.

Ephesians 1:20-23 "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."

Oh, and just in case someone is thinking I am going lone wolf here, I am also not the only one who holds to the belief that believers before the Pre-Trib Rapture will go to Abraham's Bosom, either. The Lavista Church of Christ holds to this view, as well; And they of course teach sound Biblical doctrine on a wide variety of topics.

http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVa...005/05-05a.htm

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

GaryA · Nov 7, 2014

Jason0047 said:

No.

I suppose you might call me a historicist.

I believe:

~ Daniel's 70 weeks were 100% fulfilled in a single unbroken span of 490 years. The 70th week ended about the time Stephen was stoned. Christ was crucified in the middle of the 70th week.

~ Revelation prophecy has "unfolded" over the past ~2000 years --- some is past; some is present; some is future.

~ There will be only one return of Christ - "the Second Coming of Christ" -- which will consist of a number of "sub-events" ( as parts of the overall event ) - starting with the Rapture and ending with the Wrath of God - "and continuing right on into" the 1000-year reign of Christ.

~ The 'Day of the Lord' ( as a matter of context ) is both 1000 years - and, the first [ actual ] day of that 1000 years ( the [ actual ] day He returns ).

jb said:

HAHA - that is funny...

( Baptist, as apposed to Preterist. )

Yes - I was raised a Baptist, and have always [ regularly ] attended Baptist churches.

GaryA · Nov 7, 2014

Jason0047 said:

I believe the Rapture will occur AT the Second Coming of Christ.

GaryA · Nov 7, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

I would like to see where in the Bible the length of the tribulation period is defined, stated, or even indicated in the slightest degree...

( It is not there. )

Straightshot · Nov 7, 2014

My Comments:

The Lord is only going to intervene once .... to do many things

The first will be the calling of His true Ecclesia .... time of which no one can know the dating

Then He will proceed with His hour [time] of trial upon an unbelieving world which will last for an exact 2550 days

..... and then He will appear upon the earth for all to see Him

And all will know the exact dating from the beginning of the tribulation [Revelation 6:12-17] there will be 2550 days to count by the earth dwellers of the period

His "harpazo" action to immortalize His true Ecclesia is a time that no one can predict .... suddenly and with no warning

The earth dwellers of the tribulation will be able to anticipate and know the date of His appearing

Contradiction here?

There are no contradictions in scripture

The answer: two separate events separated by 2550 days

Neither the same

GaryA · Nov 7, 2014

Tintin said:

Of course, the thread should not be "over-run" by side-topics; however, ...

kennethcadwell said:

Indeed...

As we get closer to His return, having a proper understanding of the End Times Scenario is more important than most Christians today realize...

Straightshot · Nov 7, 2014

2550 days = 1260 days + 1260 days + 30 days

Based upon the time stamping of the 70 weeks of years decreed for Israel

I will explain this time lapse if any want to know .... if you need the specific scriptures I will give them

There is one week left to finish .... the 70th still pending .... this is a 7 year time lapse of 360 day prophetic years [2520 days]

This period is divided in half for tracking [1260 +1260]

The additional 30 days will include the battle of Armageddon

Daniel and Revelation's account taken together have this exact time lapse

Straightshot · Nov 7, 2014

Side tracking happens on all of the message boards .... this does get messy

Why war in heaven?

There is a cosmic war going on between the Lord and Satan that continues .... we cannot see it, but the Lord has revealed it in His Word

..... He is going to end it .... no doubt

GaryA · Nov 7, 2014

GaryA said:

By this, I mean "specific length" - as in, "seven years"...

GaryA · Nov 7, 2014

Jason0047 said:

Have a look at 'Order of Events' also...

kennethcadwell · Nov 7, 2014

GaryA said:

Here is a reference peace that talks about it, and shows how the seven year tribulation has been come up with by biblical scholars. Plus the bible speaks more than once about the last half of the tribulation period being a great tribulation as nobody has seen before stating it in 3 1/2 years long period. ( time, times, and half a time = 3 1/2 )

An understanding ofDaniel 9:24-27is necessary in order to understand the purpose and time of the tribulation. This passage speaks of 70 weeks that have been declared against “your people.” Daniel's people are the Jews, the nation of Israel, andDaniel 9:24speaks of a period of time that God has given “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” God declares that “seventy sevens” will fulfill all these things. This is 70 sevens of years, or 490 years. (Some translations refer to 70 weeks of years.) This is confirmed by another part of this passage in Daniel. In verses 25 and 26, Daniel is told that the Messiah will be cut off after “seven sevens and sixty-two sevens” (69 total), beginning with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. In other words, 69 sevens of years (483 years) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, the Messiah will be cut off. Biblical historians confirm that 483 years passed from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Jesus was crucified. Most Christian scholars, regardless of their view of eschatology (future things/events), have the above understanding of Daniel's 70 sevens.

With 483 years having passed from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the cutting off of the Messiah, this leaves one seven-year period to be fulfilled in terms ofDaniel 9:24: “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” This final seven-year period is known as the tribulation period—it is a time when God finishes judging Israel for its sin.

Daniel 9:27gives a few highlights of the seven-year tribulation period: “He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” The person of whom this verse speaks is the person Jesus calls the “abomination that causes desolation” (Matthew 24:15) and is called “the beast” inRevelation 13.Daniel 9:27says that the beast will make a covenant for seven years, but in the middle of this week (3 1/2 years into the tribulation), he will break the covenant, putting a stop to sacrifice.Revelation 13explains that the beast will place an image of himself in the temple and require the world to worship him.Revelation 13:5says that this will go on for 42 months, which is 3 1/2 years. SinceDaniel 9:27says that this will happen in the middle of the week, andRevelation 13:5says that the beast will do this for a period of 42 months, it is easy to see that the total length of time is 84 months or seven years. Also seeDaniel 7:25, where the “time, times, and half a time” (time=1 year; times=2 years; half a time=1/2 year; total of 3 1/2 years) also refers to “great tribulation,” the last half of the seven-year tribulation period when the beast will be in power.

For further references about the tribulation, seeRevelation 11:2-3, which speaks of 1260 days and 42 months, andDaniel 12:11-12, which speaks of 1290 days and 1335 days. These days have a reference to the midpoint of the tribulation. The additional days inDaniel 12may include the time at the end for the judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46) and time for the setting up of Christ's millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).

Straightshot · Nov 7, 2014

The total specific count is there Gary

Do you want me to show you and explain the details or not?

GodIsSalvation · Nov 7, 2014

Tintin said:

Nay, Revelation is linear. Many people get confused and think the War in Heaven all ready happened due to the amount of fictional literature out there that states Satan is the same as Lucifer and there was some sorta of gap in Genesis in which Paradise Lost by John Milton occured. The Paradise Lost scenario is only a myth. Satan is not and never was an angel, he has always been a dragon, which is a created animal, which is why he was in the Garden of Eden like other created animals. Worry not though, that dragon's fate has been declared by God from the beginning even unto the end. Now that Jesus is risen from the dead the thread of prophecy cannot be broken.

kennethcadwell · Nov 7, 2014

GodIsSalvation said:

The bible speaks of and this is well taught and known by biblical scholars, that it speaks of multiple accounts of falling angels, not just one event.
When satan fell the first time as talked about by comparing the king of Tyre to Lucifer the falling angel who fell because of his pride, and Jesus even referred back to this event. The falling angels that left heaven to take human women as brides and have children with them. Then satan's rise up to heaven to make war with Micheal and his angels, in which 1/3 of the angels side with satan. They are all then cast out and back down on earth.

People want to take and make the falling of angels as just one past event, which does not match biblically as scholars have pointed out.

GodIsSalvation · Nov 7, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

There is truth that there are two "fallen angel" events. The first being pre-Flood in Genesis 6 which had to have happened after the Garden of Eden due to the fact it is written this happened when daughters were born unto men. The second being the prophesied event in Revelation which this topic is about.

As for Satan falling the first time, this is not in the Bible. Genesis 3 is the first time that Satan is mentioned, and very bluntly is stated he is a subtil beast of the field which the Lord God created, which means he is an animal.

As for the reference to King of Tyre, this is not a reference to Satan. The prophecy is very clear that it is about an ancient king of Tyre whom was at one time a good man until iniquity was found in him. Therefore the Lord destroyed him and his famous ancient city. Behold, this prophecy all ready came to pass and the city of Tyre is a ruin and waste unto this day. One will also note Ezekiel does not use the term lucifer in this prophecy.

Additional support for the fact the dragon is not the same as any of the people referred to as lucifer is found in Revelation 12. When describing the War in Heaven the dragon's titles are all on full display and those titles are Satan, Devil, and deceiver of the whole world. Clearly the Bible never uses the title Lucifer to refer to the dragon. Lucifer mean light-bringer, dawn-bringer, morning star, etc. and we know there is no light in the dragon that is called the Enemy and the Liar.

Why War in Heaven?

kennethcadwell

Guest

Kerry

Guest

Kerry

Guest

Banned

Banned

Banned

GaryA

Guest

GaryA

Guest

GaryA

Guest

Banned

GaryA

Guest

Banned

Banned

GaryA

Guest

GaryA

Guest

kennethcadwell

Guest

Banned

Banned

kennethcadwell

Guest

Banned