Sin

[pickles]

Sin, we have had alot of discussions about sin here.
For many reasons, its effect on us and its effect on our relationship with God to why we should avoid sin to
God's loving grace.
But, I dont know if we have ever really sat down and discussed how when we sin, the effect and trespass it has on others, another.
Lately, this has been shown to me in many ways, not because I or another has done anything terrible, but because, even when we believe we are doing good, we can commit an offence against another.
Seeing how sin, infects and destroys, and slides into touching more and more through many actions?

It has trully made me more and more greatful for God's grace given in Jesus, simply because, it is all that saves us from the stain and condemnation of sin.

But it has also shown me , even more, why we are called to avoid sin, in how we affect others by our actions, even if one believes they are doing good.
It shows me how and why, the avoidence of sin is so important, if only for the sake of another.
For though we are covered by grace, one must consider who is still not, and be thankful, for the faith, hope and love we know in Jesus, and the grace that is so precious.

Anyway, I just wanted to share this thought, and ask each of you and also myself?
How often do we consider the person who is the reciever of our sin, offence?

in Jesus. God bless
pickles

 

[Least]

Hi Pickles,

I have also been considering how deeply our actions and words affect others, no matter how good our intentions might be.

Each of us have experienced this in some way or another, whether it's from pride, resentment, jealousy, or any other "thing," that might be on our hearts or the hearts of others.

Jesus spoke this to the Pharisees:

Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

He also said this:

John 7:38 "The one who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, will have rivers of living water flowing from his heart."

James 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
James 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
James 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
James 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
James 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

This was David's prayer, and mine as well.

Psalms 141:3 Set a watch, O LORD, before my mouth; keep the door of my lips.

 

[oldthennew]

Pickles,

a wonderful subject, once again, especially for us all to think about,,

for my husband and myself, in our service for our Lord, one of the most important things
for us, is to always be on guard to not offend or hurt another out of unkindness,
malice, or any other negative thing that we know our Father would not approve of.
it's a never-ending task that we ourselves are not able to put off or pretend away.
we can witness though, that much progress can be made if this is an honest
priority done through love and respect.
the opportunities are endless, to say the least, but the rewards bring such a great peace
that it's worth every minute to practice this act of refining, out of love for God, family,
as well as all others and of course so you may respect yourself.

I couldn't count the times that Christ has righted me from the wrong ways in which I
was dis-respecting my Husband, it was amazing to me how little I knew of how God
expects us to Honor and obey the leader of the home, (when he is truly a man of God),
putting away the ways that the world teaches and talks and acts to one another is so
very different than what our Father, as His children demands of us.
selfishness is one of the most difficult, ugly characteristics we must over-come, but
once you acknowledge the small ones, it becomes easier and easier, and then you
begin to fly.




'Lawlessness brings for more lawlessness, and righteousness brings forth more righteousness.'

 

[elf3]

The way you set this up is really something we don't think about much when it comes to sin. We have a tendency to think of our sin as only affecting us. We forget about how our sin affects others.

I am in a men's Bible study and we are studying Romans. One of the books I am using for my study is a book called " the finished work of Christ" based off of a teaching of Romans by Francis A. Schaeffer.

He said this about Romans 6:16 "Each choice we make has an effect upon all of history." "Each choice we make as a Christian and as a human being has a reality in history, and it affects all those about us." We produce either death or life as people around us either accept or reject God because of what we say to them and hoe we live before them. To realize that our words and actions are that significant should make us tremble."

When I read that it made me stop and think. Are we bringing "sin unto death" or "obedience unto righteousness"? Who is our master now? Who are we "slaves" unto?

In Jesus Christ we are a "new creation". Do we live in that "new creation" or do we live still "chained to sin". This is for sure something we shouldn't take lightly.

At the end of Romans 7 Paul talks about how sin still attacks us and we fall. But I love the way he ends chapter 7. Rom 7:24,25 "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

"Through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

 

[Joidevivre]

We will always sin in some way every day, hence the need to always be under God's grace.

However, what helps me to be more Christlike is to think about "putting on" his nature. I take each attribute one by one (make a list of them)...and each day tap into it because they are all in you when you have Him living in you. Then, no matter what I feel, I act as if I feel that attribute to everyone I meet. Pretty soon, I find that I really do feel that way.

This taught me that feelings usually follow actions - not the other way around. The sinful actions usually begin to drop away without really thinking about them.

Remember, what you focus on you become more of. When I focused on getting rid of sinful actions I did, the more they seemed to crop up. But the more I focused on "pretending" I had Christ's attributes, I found myself actually having them.

Start with the fruits of the Spirit.... One by one.

 

[Skinski7]

It shows me how and why, the avoidence of sin is so important, if only for the sake of another.
For though we are covered by grace, one must consider who is still not, and be thankful, for the faith, hope and love we know in Jesus, and the grace that is so precious.

It truly blows my mind how apparently very sincere people can honestly say these kinds of things.

The avoidance of sin is important ONLY for the sake of another? Isn't such a statement a bold claim that you can sin and not surely die? Somehow you believe that you can choose to sin and the only reason not to is for the sake of another?

I really cannot grasp how people can establish themselves on such a foundation when Jesus made clear statements like "go and sin no more." Jesus said those words. "Stop sinning lest a worse thing happen to you." Does grace somehow nullify those words of Jesus?

Think about it. I mean REALLY think about it. What does the Bible ACTUALLY teach?

Here we have Paul making the claim that grace abounded when sin abounded...

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Thus God's grace was abounding when sin was present. Yet is Paul speaking of grace being a cloak?

Is grace a cloak?

Pickle you say...

God's grace given in Jesus, simply because, it is all that saves us from the stain and condemnation of sin...

Is that what the Bible teaches? Does grace save us from the stain and condemnation of sin?

My Bible says that the grace that brings salvation TEACHES us to abstain from sin (Tit 2:11-12) and that Jesus gave Himself for us to redeem us from ALL iniquity and make us pure whereby we are zealous to do the right thing (Tit 2:12)...

Where does this notion of grace cloaking ongoing wickedness come from? Honestly, where does that notion come from?

Paul in Romans 5 speaks of grace abounding when sin abounds, in other words grace is ever present and functional when sin is present and functional. Paul is not teaching that grace CLOAKS sin for he goes on to say...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Paul so very clearly states that the SERVICE OF SIN STOPS!

Why doesn't hardly anyone teach that today?

Why does practically every professing Christian completely ignore that the service of sin STOPS when we die with Christ?

God forbid we continue in sin. How can we continue in sin when we are dead to sin? Don't we realise that we are baptised into the death of Christ? Don't we know that our old man is crucified with Christ in order that the body of sin be destroyed for the EXPRESS PURPOSE that the SERVICE OF SIN CEASES?

Isn't that what Paul is teaching?

If so then HOW can anyone claim that "grace saves us from the condemnation and stain of sin and that the ONLY reason to stop sin is for the sake of our neighbour?"

With all the nice sounding fluff removed isn't that Satan speaking? You can sin and not surely die? Grace covers ongoing wickedness? Just TRUST in Jesus and you can sin and not surely die?

Come on folks. Let's be real.

Jesus said GO AND SIN NO MORE and Jesus said BLESSED BE THE PURE IN HEART FOR THEY SHALL SEE GOD.

Does an individual with a pure heart CHOOSE evil ever? NO! NEVER. NOT ONE TIME.

A pure person may stumble in ignorance. They may do the wrong thing unknowingly and need to be corrected. Yet to WILLFULLY choose evil is out of the question.

If we can continue to willfully choose evil and therefore SERVE SIN then what on earth are we actually saved from? Is God's salvation actually "Ye can sin and not surely die." Is that what God gave as a gift? Did God give the gift of being able to sin and not surely die?

Think about that. Really think about it.

We get ONE GO in this life. The Bible warns of MASSIVE DECEPTION. The Bible warns us that the MAJORITY will be deceived.

I do not want to be one of the MANY. I want to be one of the FEW who STRIVE and enter in at the strait gate and endure the narrow way which leads to life. I want to FOLLOW Jesus.

I reject grace cloaks ongoing rebellion.

God bless.

 

[tourist]

Sin, we have had alot of discussions about sin here.
For many reasons, its effect on us and its effect on our relationship with God to why we should avoid sin to
God's loving grace.
But, I dont know if we have ever really sat down and discussed how when we sin, the effect and trespass it has on others, another.
Lately, this has been shown to me in many ways, not because I or another has done anything terrible, but because, even when we believe we are doing good, we can commit an offence against another.
Seeing how sin, infects and destroys, and slides into touching more and more through many actions?

It has trully made me more and more greatful for God's grace given in Jesus, simply because, it is all that saves us from the stain and condemnation of sin.

But it has also shown me , even more, why we are called to avoid sin, in how we affect others by our actions, even if one believes they are doing good.
It shows me how and why, the avoidence of sin is so important, if only for the sake of another.
For though we are covered by grace, one must consider who is still not, and be thankful, for the faith, hope and love we know in Jesus, and the grace that is so precious.

Anyway, I just wanted to share this thought, and ask each of you and also myself?
How often do we consider the person who is the reciever of our sin, offence?

in Jesus. God bless
pickles

This is an outstanding post. It is written as if it were a Psalm. For sure it is a Proverb.

 

[elf3]

It truly blows my mind how apparently very sincere people can honestly say these kinds of things.

The avoidance of sin is important ONLY for the sake of another? Isn't such a statement a bold claim that you can sin and not surely die? Somehow you believe that you can choose to sin and the only reason not to is for the sake of another?

I really cannot grasp how people can establish themselves on such a foundation when Jesus made clear statements like "go and sin no more." Jesus said those words. "Stop sinning lest a worse thing happen to you." Does grace somehow nullify those words of Jesus?

Think about it. I mean REALLY think about it. What does the Bible ACTUALLY teach?

Here we have Paul making the claim that grace abounded when sin abounded...

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Thus God's grace was abounding when sin was present. Yet is Paul speaking of grace being a cloak?

Is grace a cloak?

Pickle you say...



Is that what the Bible teaches? Does grace save us from the stain and condemnation of sin?

My Bible says that the grace that brings salvation TEACHES us to abstain from sin (Tit 2:11-12) and that Jesus gave Himself for us to redeem us from ALL iniquity and make us pure whereby we are zealous to do the right thing (Tit 2:12)...

Where does this notion of grace cloaking ongoing wickedness come from? Honestly, where does that notion come from?

Paul in Romans 5 speaks of grace abounding when sin abounds, in other words grace is ever present and functional when sin is present and functional. Paul is not teaching that grace CLOAKS sin for he goes on to say...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Paul so very clearly states that the SERVICE OF SIN STOPS!

Why doesn't hardly anyone teach that today?

Why does practically every professing Christian completely ignore that the service of sin STOPS when we die with Christ?

God forbid we continue in sin. How can we continue in sin when we are dead to sin? Don't we realise that we are baptised into the death of Christ? Don't we know that our old man is crucified with Christ in order that the body of sin be destroyed for the EXPRESS PURPOSE that the SERVICE OF SIN CEASES?

Isn't that what Paul is teaching?

If so then HOW can anyone claim that "grace saves us from the condemnation and stain of sin and that the ONLY reason to stop sin is for the sake of our neighbour?"

With all the nice sounding fluff removed isn't that Satan speaking? You can sin and not surely die? Grace covers ongoing wickedness? Just TRUST in Jesus and you can sin and not surely die?

Come on folks. Let's be real.

Jesus said GO AND SIN NO MORE and Jesus said BLESSED BE THE PURE IN HEART FOR THEY SHALL SEE GOD.

Does an individual with a pure heart CHOOSE evil ever? NO! NEVER. NOT ONE TIME.

A pure person may stumble in ignorance. They may do the wrong thing unknowingly and need to be corrected. Yet to WILLFULLY choose evil is out of the question.

If we can continue to willfully choose evil and therefore SERVE SIN then what on earth are we actually saved from? Is God's salvation actually "Ye can sin and not surely die." Is that what God gave as a gift? Did God give the gift of being able to sin and not surely die?

Think about that. Really think about it.

We get ONE GO in this life. The Bible warns of MASSIVE DECEPTION. The Bible warns us that the MAJORITY will be deceived.

I do not want to be one of the MANY. I want to be one of the FEW who STRIVE and enter in at the strait gate and endure the narrow way which leads to life. I want to FOLLOW Jesus.

I reject grace cloaks ongoing rebellion.

God bless.

You misquoted pickles she said "if only" meaning that we should be aware how our sin affects others. You misquote her and say "only" meaning we should abstain from sin only for the sake of others. You reposted and removed the word "if" to make an argument.

And to say that once we become "the new creation in Christ" we no longer sin or are now sinless is a major false statement. We are no longer slaves to sin as we are now slaves to righteousness.

Paul himself admits that he was still struggling with sin. Let's have a look what he says in Romans 7:15-20 "For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree, with the law that it is good. But now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me."

Even though we are a "new creation" in Christ we still have "sin dwelling in us" because we are human. The difference is that now we are slaves to righteousness not slaves to sin. Before we came to Christ we would ALWAYS choose the path of sin. Now we are in Christ so our path is different.

The OP makes a profound statement that should make us think. Our sin not only affects us but all of those around us. We have accepted the grace of God not so we can be "clouded" from our sin but so we can be more aware of our sin. If we are unaware of our sin we could never come to Christ. We no longer live under sin but, the grace of God.

 

[Skinski7]

You misquoted pickles she said "if only" meaning that we should be aware how our sin affects others. You misquote her and say "only" meaning we should abstain from sin only for the sake of others. You reposted and removed the word "if" to make an argument.

I didn't misquote anything. My post clearly has the full quote verbatim at the top.

It shows me how and why, the avoidence of sin is so important, if only for the sake of another.

By not using the word "if" when I first paraphrased the statement does not change the meaning one iota. The avoidance of sin is very important IF ONLY for the sake of another? The avoidance of sin is important because it is sin which separates an individual from God.

And to say that once we become "the new creation in Christ" we no longer sin or are now sinless is a major false statement. We are no longer slaves to sin as we are now slaves to righteousness.

Paul himself admits that he was still struggling with sin. Let's have a look what he says in Romans 7:15-20 "For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree, with the law that it is good. But now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me."

Even though we are a "new creation" in Christ we still have "sin dwelling in us" because we are human. The difference is that now we are slaves to righteousness not slaves to sin. Before we came to Christ we would ALWAYS choose the path of sin. Now we are in Christ so our path is different.

Here you use pure rhetoric to blow off the content of my post. People like you always do this. You refuse to acknowledge what the Bible plainly teaches and refer to other passages which you represent out of context and then use them as if they cancel out other parts of the Bible. You are deceiving yourself when you do that.

Sin does not dwell in us. Sin is not a substance. Sin is a moral issue.

When Paul refers to the "sin that dwells in me" he is using a figure of speech to describe the wretchedness of a sinner brought to conviction under the law. Paul is using the grammatical device called Historical Present to emphasise the point he is making. Paul opens Romans chapter 7 by addressing those "that know the law," then Paul proceeds to defend the law from the charge of "is the law sin?" because it is by the law that sin can kill. The only means by which a sin unto death can occur is through the willful choosing of evil when the knowledge of good exists. That single act cuts one off from God and puts one under condemnation. It is that single act that Satan wants people to engage in because if they do they will perish in their sin.

After defending the law as the means to show men the way to life (the right way to go) Paul then explains that the law cannot save someone for it does not deal with the heart.

The wretched man serves the law of sin because his heart is defiled and full of guile. This is why Paul speaks of freedom being through "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Which is the same message he teaches in Romans 6 when he explains it all within the framework of dying with Christ and then being raised up with Christ. We die to sin and are raised up to newness of life. We die to serving sin and we are raised up to serve righteousness. It is in serving righteousness that we no longer sin unto death and that is why eternal life is THROUGH Jesus Christ. THAT IS THE GOSPEL. The birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ which we PARTAKE IN by FOLLOWING JESUS.

You completely ignore all that and cling to "sin we will sin we must" and use Romans 7 and 1Joh 1:8 as proof texts to back it up. You will only damn yourself by doing that because you have refused to believe the Gospel but have instead chosen a counterfeit message.

Jesus said "go and sin no more" and "blessed be the pure in heart for they shall see God." You ignore those words of Jesus completely and instead misrepresent what Paul and John taught.

John wrote this...

Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Somehow you have been conditioned to reject the very teachings of Jesus.

Jesus said if you commit sin you are the servant of sin. That is EXACTLY the same sentiment Paul gives in Rom 6:16...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

The context is OBEDIENCE TO THE TRUTH. In other words it is yielding ourselves to what is right as opposed to rejecting what is right and choosing evil. That is why Paul wrote...

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

A servant of righteousness is one who obeys from the heart the doctrine of Jesus Christ. In other words it is one who "goes and sins no more" just like Jesus commanded. Thus "disobedience to righteousness" STOPS. Sin unto death STOPS. The Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ sets us free from the law of sin and death, the law which is YOU SIN YOU DIE. We are SET FREE INDEED in Jesus Christ.

You don't believe that. You along with multitudes of other professing Christian's utterly reject the truth and argue in favour of ongoing wickedness.

Here is what you say...

Even though we are a "new creation" in Christ we still have "sin dwelling in us" because we are human. The difference is that now we are slaves to righteousness not slaves to sin. Before we came to Christ we would ALWAYS choose the path of sin. Now we are in Christ so our path is different.

We have sin dwelling in us because we are human? Where does the Bible say that?

You are misrepresenting Paul's words in Romans 7 in order to excuse ongoing wickedness.

Before we came to Christ we would ALWAYS choose the path of sin? So now you only do it SOMETIMES after coming to Christ? Is that what the Bible teaches? NO IT DOESN'T! Don't be deceived by such nonsense.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

How are the children of God manifest? They don't commit sin because those who commit sin are the slaves of sin. That is what Jesus taught.

Your theology is wrong and it will damn you if you follow it because it leaves you convinced that your are bound for heaven whilst you continue to sin unto death. WAKE UP! YOUR SOUL IS IN THE BALANCE HERE!

You cannot have any guile whatsoever in your heart if you are going to enter the kingdom.

Psa 32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

There can be no intention to do evil existent in our hearts at all. NONE! We MUST be pure before God. That is the purpose of the ministry of reconciliation. We are brought into an acceptable state before God whereby we have no guile and therefore God may then forgive our past crimes.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Read that Hebrews passage over and over again until it clicks. It describes how we are to approach God in order to be cleansed and after being cleansed there is no ongoing wickedness. To engage in sin unto death after being cleansed is to put oneself in a perilous state. Read it, that is what the passage clearly states. Don't try and pretend it doesn't say that, it does say that very clearly.

Today very few people are genuinely being saved because they are not dying to sin in repentance. The old man is not being crucified and the service to sin is never stopping. Multitudes are therefore not being raised up to newness of life as true servants of righteousness who abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ where they have been set free indeed from the law of sin and death. That is not happening.

True redemption is not happening because people have bought into a false gospel message. A message where instead of having to manifestly die with Christ, it is instead taught that we "trust in the finished work" and that "Jesus did it all" and that "if we say we have no sin (ie. ongoing wickedness) we are liars)." Thus people THINK they are saved when they are still in rebellion to God but their delusion prevents them from truly being redeemed because they reject the true means of redemption.

This is sickening to observe as so many millions and millions of people are going to be damned simply because they refused to dig deep like Jesus said and instead cocked their heads to doctrine which tickled their ears.

Please don't be one of those people. Don't ignore the words of Jesus. Jesus DID TEACH heart purity as being the standard set forth by God. Jesus did command people to go and sin no more. Jesus did teach that if you commit sin then you are its slave but that He came to set you free from that.

 

[Skinski7]

I am in a men's Bible study and we are studying Romans. One of the books I am using for my study is a book called " the finished work of Christ" based off of a teaching of Romans by Francis A. Schaeffer.

This is one reason that you and many like you are deceived. You have allowed theologians to brainwash you instead of simply yielding yourself to the plain words of scripture.

Jesus taught that we must repent and follow Him. Jesus taught that the way to life is via a strait gate and narrow way which we must strive to enter into. Jesus taught that we must pick up our cross, deny ourselves, and follow Him. Jesus taught that we are to go and sin no more. Jesus taught that we ought to count the cost that we may realise what an undertaking it is to actually follow Him because it will cost us everything. Jesus taught that we are to abide in Him for unless we do that we cannot do anything.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ brings us into a MANIFEST STATE. The Gospel of Jesus Christ brings us into a NOW state of WALKING WITH GOD. The whole purpose of the mission of Jesus Christ was to bring us into a reconciled state with God whereby our heart is pure. An impure heart cannot abide with God, an impure heart is in opposition to God.

Yet your theology does not teach that does it? Instead you hold to an abstract view of salvation where Jesus effected a mere LEGAL TRANSACTION on your behalf and thus you are IN PRINCIPLE in Jesus whilst not MANIFESTLY in Jesus. That is how you can argue in favour of ongoing rebellion to God whilst claiming to be saved and IN Jesus. It is a fallacy. Pure fallacy.

Look at this...

In Jesus Christ we are a "new creation". Do we live in that "new creation" or do we live still "chained to sin". This is for sure something we shouldn't take lightly.

You contend that "new creations" don't actually have to live it. You pose a question to the Christian to ask themselves whether they MANIFESTLY live according to this ABSTRACT STATE you believe in, or whether they do not live it. Your doctrine allows the service of two masters to be evident.

Thus of course you refer to Romans 7 and state...

At the end of Romans 7 Paul talks about how sin still attacks us and we fall.

Falling into sin is inevitable in your doctrine. There is no true victory over sin in your gospel. Can you not see this? You use Romans 7 to argue in favour of MANIFEST defeat whilst you proclaim ABSTRACT victory because you "trust in Jesus and His finished work."

Jesus finished work is a MEANS by which you can approach God in repentance and faith seeking to be cleansed of PAST sins just like Hebrews teaches. You view the finished work of Jesus as "paying a sin debt" by which the blood cloaks ongoing wickedness. That is a satanic deception which lures people into thinking they can keep choosing evil and not perish.

You finish with...

But I love the way he ends chapter 7. Rom 7:24,25 "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

"Through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

You really think Jesus saves some and leaves them wretched? Is God so weak that His salvation leaves people wretched, carnal and sold under sin? Think about that.

Peter wrote this...

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Read that several times and let is sink in. We ESCAPE the corruption that is in the world through lust because we have been given all things that pertain to life and godliness. The wretch has not escaped anything for he is still carnal and sold under sin. Yes the wretch can can serve the law of God with his mind, his understanding, in other words he agrees with it. Yet with his flesh he serves the law of sin. The flesh ALWAYS serves the law of sin because flesh is governed by base passions only, that is why we have to CRUCIFY THE FLESH with its PASSIONS AND DESIRES and we henceforth RULE OVER the flesh via walking after the Spirit.

The wretch is lost not saved. Paul uses the wretch example to explain to those who know the law WHY they need the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

Romans 6 = The HOW - Paul explains the methodology of how salvation works, how we enter into it via repentance (dying to sin) and then being raised up to abide in Jesus where we serve righteousness.
Romans 7 = The WHY - Paul explains why the Spirit is necessary because the law only addresses outward conduct, not the heart. Change is wrought through the heart not through rules and regulations. This is why the law cannot save anyone. This is why it is by the Spirit we can only be saved.
Romans 8 = The VICTORY - Paul explains how we may have victory through the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. We MUST walk after the Spirit and in doing so the deeds of the flesh are mortified or put to death (the rebellion/iniquity/sin/evil has CEASED).

Here are to the two paths...

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

There is no such thing as being abstractly saved and still practically wicked. There is no such thing as being saved and at the same time being carnal and sold under sin.

Salvation is real.

Salvation is manifest.

The Gospel is the POWER OF GOD unto salvation and salvation is wrought by ABIDING IN THAT POWER. The same power that raised Jesus Christ from the dead is the power that raises us up from being dead in sin to being alive as a new creation in Christ. There is NOTHING positional about it. We then endure to the end abiding in this state by which we are kept to our final salvation where we put off our corruptible mortal bodies and are raised up and given a glorified body.

This present life is about preparing our hearts for that event. There is no transformation of heart after we die. If we die with a wicked heart we will perish in our sins.

Look at this, and I mean actually look at it, don't blow over it thinking that favourite pet verses (which are always twisted out of context) cancel it out...

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Professing Christian's who claim that their righteousness is as filthy rags before God because sin abides in their flesh (due to Original Sin doctrine) are incredibly deceived. The saints of God are PURE and RIGHTEOUS before God because the hearts of the saints have been purged of all iniquity and whilst they may be ignorant in many regards they have no inward guile. This is the truth. Please don't reject it.


Believe the Bible. The Bible contends for righteousness and victory over sin, not wretchedness and constant defeat.

 

[gb9]

skinski, I want to say that while I am not with you and still disagree with you on several points, I do agree with you that as I read through the N.T. we are told over and over to stop sinning. not talking about being perfect, but to diligently guard against sin. so I am slightly leaning in your direction. how about that?

 

[Skinski7]

skinski, I want to say that while I am not with you and still disagree with you on several points, I do agree with you that as I read through the N.T. we are told over and over to stop sinning. not talking about being perfect, but to diligently guard against sin. so I am slightly leaning in your direction. how about that?

It is what the Bible so clearly teaches.

I don't think any of us can be perfect in the sense where we lack ignorance and therefore never err in judgement. Yet we can all be perfect in our heart if we simply abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

That is all God requires of us. A good heart. A heart that yields to the truth as best we know it. That is faith. That is the faith that God reckons as righteousness.

Faith works by love and love works no ill. Therefore we love God with our whole heart, mind and soul and we love our neighbour as ourselves. That is what Jesus taught. That is what Jesus tried to teach the Pharisees and they rejected it in favour of their religious practices. The Pharisees refused to come to Christ and follow Him, instead they held fast to the traditions of men. It is no different in the present day.

 

[oldthennew]

skinski, I want to say that while I am not with you and still disagree with you on several points, I do agree with you that as I read through the N.T. we are told over and over to stop sinning. not talking about being perfect, but to diligently guard against sin. so I am slightly leaning in your direction. how about that?
=======================================================================
gb9

my wife and I and are humbled by you, not only by your Spiritual perception but also by the patience you
have shown in reading and considering skinski's dissertation.
it is obvious that he has a diligent and enthusiastic zeal for Christ's Words and principles for his fellow man.

it is also plain that he has a great conviction that a 'servant of Christ' should walk up-rightly and
have an utter and despising abhorance of sin.
Should we not all of us desire to walk uprightly? Should we not all love the good and hate the evil?

we may fall and stumble into sin, but if I 'willfully-practice' this stumbling and falling into iniquity
for the gratification of my own 'lust', I have willingly become the enemy of Christ.
I may claim a fool-hardy grace , but it is my deceitful heart trying its best to justify my sin and
proclaim it as, 'my mistaken righteousness', but, God is not mocked, He discerns our hearts
whether it be of sin unto foolishness or of righteousness unto wisdom.

the adversary's favorite words, = has God really said this?
the adversary's favorite tools = doubt of the validity of our Saviours's Words.

woe!, woe!, to those that turn an twist the Goodness of God unto the evilness of satan.

 

[elf3]

Wow! The things you read into my post. Just amazing!

 

[pickles]

It truly blows my mind how apparently very sincere people can honestly say these kinds of things.

The avoidance of sin is important ONLY for the sake of another? Isn't such a statement a bold claim that you can sin and not surely die? Somehow you believe that you can choose to sin and the only reason not to is for the sake of another?

I really cannot grasp how people can establish themselves on such a foundation when Jesus made clear statements like "go and sin no more." Jesus said those words. "Stop sinning lest a worse thing happen to you." Does grace somehow nullify those words of Jesus?

Think about it. I mean REALLY think about it. What does the Bible ACTUALLY teach?

Here we have Paul making the claim that grace abounded when sin abounded...

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Thus God's grace was abounding when sin was present. Yet is Paul speaking of grace being a cloak?

Is grace a cloak?

Pickle you say...



Is that what the Bible teaches? Does grace save us from the stain and condemnation of sin?

My Bible says that the grace that brings salvation TEACHES us to abstain from sin (Tit 2:11-12) and that Jesus gave Himself for us to redeem us from ALL iniquity and make us pure whereby we are zealous to do the right thing (Tit 2:12)...

Where does this notion of grace cloaking ongoing wickedness come from? Honestly, where does that notion come from?

Paul in Romans 5 speaks of grace abounding when sin abounds, in other words grace is ever present and functional when sin is present and functional. Paul is not teaching that grace CLOAKS sin for he goes on to say...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Paul so very clearly states that the SERVICE OF SIN STOPS!

Why doesn't hardly anyone teach that today?

Why does practically every professing Christian completely ignore that the service of sin STOPS when we die with Christ?

God forbid we continue in sin. How can we continue in sin when we are dead to sin? Don't we realise that we are baptised into the death of Christ? Don't we know that our old man is crucified with Christ in order that the body of sin be destroyed for the EXPRESS PURPOSE that the SERVICE OF SIN CEASES?

Isn't that what Paul is teaching?

If so then HOW can anyone claim that "grace saves us from the condemnation and stain of sin and that the ONLY reason to stop sin is for the sake of our neighbour?"

With all the nice sounding fluff removed isn't that Satan speaking? You can sin and not surely die? Grace covers ongoing wickedness? Just TRUST in Jesus and you can sin and not surely die?

Come on folks. Let's be real.

Jesus said GO AND SIN NO MORE and Jesus said BLESSED BE THE PURE IN HEART FOR THEY SHALL SEE GOD.

Does an individual with a pure heart CHOOSE evil ever? NO! NEVER. NOT ONE TIME.

A pure person may stumble in ignorance. They may do the wrong thing unknowingly and need to be corrected. Yet to WILLFULLY choose evil is out of the question.

If we can continue to willfully choose evil and therefore SERVE SIN then what on earth are we actually saved from? Is God's salvation actually "Ye can sin and not surely die." Is that what God gave as a gift? Did God give the gift of being able to sin and not surely die?

Think about that. Really think about it.

We get ONE GO in this life. The Bible warns of MASSIVE DECEPTION. The Bible warns us that the MAJORITY will be deceived.

I do not want to be one of the MANY. I want to be one of the FEW who STRIVE and enter in at the strait gate and endure the narrow way which leads to life. I want to FOLLOW Jesus.

I reject grace cloaks ongoing rebellion.

God bless.

SKinski, I apoligise for my misuse of words, but my intention was never to imply the only reason we should not sin.
After examination, I would have served better, by saying setting aside ourself for the sake of another, which we are called to in scripture, to walk as He walked,(Jesus).
My desire with this thread was simply to speak to an often overlooked act of sin, sin that traspasses against others and its seed that continues.
Now I do want to speak to you about a simple concern here.
I have never claimed to be perfect, nor has any other here, my only claim is that I love Our Lord Jesus, God Our Father, and all that we are called to in faith, and that all is a long list.
I am no scholar, Im just a mom, and as I often speak to, if you desire the perfect, one must seek this through the word in Jesus, testing often.
I spoke only to a tiny part of that list, but in doing so does not mean I, or any other here when posting, dismisses anything we are called to in Jesus, by God Our Father.
And I fully agree that we are esteem in all ways to avoid sin.

Grace is for what was past, and what we still fail at as we are perfected.
But is not so we may willingly continue to, or to increase in sin, like Paul said, do we sin more so grace may abound? Of course not!

But like I said skinski, I could have worded better, so Im sorry.
But, you could have simply asked as well, and avoided alot of extra writing.

In Jesus, God bless
pickles