where can one be saved?
- Thread starter posthuman
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I suggest an in depth study of (LIKE FIGURE), The thief on the cross and LUKE chapter 1 as Jesus (the primo example) was the SON of GOD before his immersion!
Baptism is a PICTURE, a PAINTING and an IDENTIFIER while being the public TESTIMONY of belief into and acceptance of the RESURRECTION of Jesus and states to the world that one has exercised FAITH into the completed work of Christ, it is the first WORK (ACT) of obedience and has nothing at all to do with gaining salvation...
When I see the BLOOD, I will pass over you<---no water and or works added
It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE<---NO works or water added
Whosever believeth in him is having EVERLASTING LIFE John 3:16<---no works or water added
In the grace you are having been saved out of faith and not of yourselves it is the GIFT of GOD, NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast<----No works or water added
Baptism is to the N.T. what Circumcision was to the O.T.<---Abraham had FAITH long before he had Circumcision!
Baptism is a PICTURE, a PAINTING and an IDENTIFIER while being the public TESTIMONY of belief into and acceptance of the RESURRECTION of Jesus and states to the world that one has exercised FAITH into the completed work of Christ, it is the first WORK (ACT) of obedience and has nothing at all to do with gaining salvation...
When I see the BLOOD, I will pass over you<---no water and or works added
It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE<---NO works or water added
Whosever believeth in him is having EVERLASTING LIFE John 3:16<---no works or water added
In the grace you are having been saved out of faith and not of yourselves it is the GIFT of GOD, NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast<----No works or water added
Baptism is to the N.T. what Circumcision was to the O.T.<---Abraham had FAITH long before he had Circumcision!
J
Psalms 139
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
so that He might be glorified in us, giving us eternal life, which is to know Him, so we can glorify Him.
as Jesus prayed:
Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
(John 17:1-3)
it's because of this that i wonder, when we attribute saving power and and glory to human actions and earthly things, like sacraments and rites, whether we're 'doing it right' it or not. i think the chief end of all things is to glorify God - so whatever glories in itself, and not in God - - i wonder if it will pass the test of fire or not.
as Jesus prayed:
Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
(John 17:1-3)
it's because of this that i wonder, when we attribute saving power and and glory to human actions and earthly things, like sacraments and rites, whether we're 'doing it right' it or not. i think the chief end of all things is to glorify God - so whatever glories in itself, and not in God - - i wonder if it will pass the test of fire or not.
i've had many fuzzy feelings, and i know fuzzy feelings in themselves aren't God. i have heard many voices, and i know voices in themselves aren't God. i've also not heard any voices - and i know what's left in the silence isn't God just by virtue of being what remains. but what if it's a voice behind you telling you "I have made you clean" and saying "it is right for you now to be baptized before men, confessing Me" ?
isn't it this:
Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, "This is the way; walk in it."
(Isaiah 30:21)
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me
(John 10:27)
amen! but i notice those people in Matt. 7:21 come to Him boasting of the great things they did in His name - not of the faith they put in Him or the grace that He had shown them. (in contrast with Jeremiah 9:24)
and i know that His true worshipers worship Him in spirit and truth, not on 'this mountain' or some other.
honestly, Jesus said "as often as you do this" -- not "every first day of the week" -- and from looking at Paul's epistles, it sounds more like the believers considered 'the Lord's supper' to be much more like a pot-luck dinner everyone shared than a rite with just enough bread and wine to give a taste. see:
When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat. For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in?
(1 Corinthians 11:20-22)
how to get drunk on 1oz of grape juice? how to go hungry because you did not get your one crumb of unleavened bread?
somehow i think we're not doing this right either. Paul doesn't go on to chastise the Corinthians for using wine instead of grape juice, or for having portions too large, but for not sharing, and for being gluttonous. so i think 'the Lord's supper' is to eat together sharing food - not a ritual of tiny tastings. don't you think in the upper room they shared a full meal?
i think what Peter said was 'the like figure whereunto' - meaning in the same way, as a symbol - 'not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God' - an 'immersion' saves us by the resurrection of Christ.
i think no one is saved outside of the resurrection of Christ, and that there is no other foundation or name under heaven that salvation comes by.
i've been immersed in H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, attesting to my faith - so it's not as though even by the COC measure i have not been set apart for Him. now i find though, that before the foundation of the world He chose me and set me apart, to be called by Him, to answer and follow Him. so i wonder -- if He knew me from the beginning and knew the plans He had for me, was i 'unsaved' at any point? i was dead, unredeemed, unregenerated, in unbelief, in ignorance, and at enmity - but was i ever unknown to Him? He knew me, and knew my name, and called to me as though i was a lost sheep - and do shepherds call the sheep of other flocks, or their own, that are lost? do sheep hear the voice of a shepherd that they don't belong to?
isn't it this:
Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, "This is the way; walk in it."
(Isaiah 30:21)
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me
(John 10:27)
amen! but i notice those people in Matt. 7:21 come to Him boasting of the great things they did in His name - not of the faith they put in Him or the grace that He had shown them. (in contrast with Jeremiah 9:24)
and i know that His true worshipers worship Him in spirit and truth, not on 'this mountain' or some other.
honestly, Jesus said "as often as you do this" -- not "every first day of the week" -- and from looking at Paul's epistles, it sounds more like the believers considered 'the Lord's supper' to be much more like a pot-luck dinner everyone shared than a rite with just enough bread and wine to give a taste. see:
When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat. For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in?
(1 Corinthians 11:20-22)
how to get drunk on 1oz of grape juice? how to go hungry because you did not get your one crumb of unleavened bread?
somehow i think we're not doing this right either. Paul doesn't go on to chastise the Corinthians for using wine instead of grape juice, or for having portions too large, but for not sharing, and for being gluttonous. so i think 'the Lord's supper' is to eat together sharing food - not a ritual of tiny tastings. don't you think in the upper room they shared a full meal?
i think what Peter said was 'the like figure whereunto' - meaning in the same way, as a symbol - 'not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God' - an 'immersion' saves us by the resurrection of Christ.
i think no one is saved outside of the resurrection of Christ, and that there is no other foundation or name under heaven that salvation comes by.
i've been immersed in H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, attesting to my faith - so it's not as though even by the COC measure i have not been set apart for Him. now i find though, that before the foundation of the world He chose me and set me apart, to be called by Him, to answer and follow Him. so i wonder -- if He knew me from the beginning and knew the plans He had for me, was i 'unsaved' at any point? i was dead, unredeemed, unregenerated, in unbelief, in ignorance, and at enmity - but was i ever unknown to Him? He knew me, and knew my name, and called to me as though i was a lost sheep - and do shepherds call the sheep of other flocks, or their own, that are lost? do sheep hear the voice of a shepherd that they don't belong to?
Last edited:
here it is clear as day ...entrance into the kingdom...born of water and spirit....I believe God is merciful and keeps that which is committed unto him....but that does not mean that one is in the kingdom having not obeyed kingdom rules....you must be born again to enter into the kingdom...
John 3:5-7King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
John 3:5-7King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
so one who is not baptised has broken God's covenant and shall be cut off...so in your understanding without baptism one cannot be saved...
Genesis 17:14
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Genesis 17:14
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit.
(1 John 4:13)
at one time i had a spirit of disobedience, and was dead.
having now a willing and obedient spirit, though my flesh is weak, i know He lives in me.
what is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the spirit is spirit.
(1 John 4:13)
at one time i had a spirit of disobedience, and was dead.
having now a willing and obedient spirit, though my flesh is weak, i know He lives in me.
what is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the spirit is spirit.
God works through those human actions (Church and sacraments). If we believe that He sent the Holy Spirit upon His disciples, it means that it weren't the disciples doing the works (baptism, for example), but the Holy Spirit.
I think that people who can't go to church because...I don't know, they live in the desert, in the North Pole, they are very sick or other serious reasons, will receive the Holy Spirit even if they don't enter the church in the traditional way. God will take care of them.
We know where the church is, but we don't know where the church isn't.
No one can put a limit to the work of the Holy Spirit. So, yes, the Holy Spirit can be received even in a pew. But we also know for sure that the Holy Spirit is in the Church.
So, knowing that Christ is present in the church through the Holy Spirit, having the possibility to go to church and yet, refusing to do so, is, to me, like saying: I want to go to heaven (after I die), but I don't want to unite with Christ (in present time).
It's like wanting more a place in heaven than being with Christ.
I think that people who can't go to church because...I don't know, they live in the desert, in the North Pole, they are very sick or other serious reasons, will receive the Holy Spirit even if they don't enter the church in the traditional way. God will take care of them.
We know where the church is, but we don't know where the church isn't.
No one can put a limit to the work of the Holy Spirit. So, yes, the Holy Spirit can be received even in a pew. But we also know for sure that the Holy Spirit is in the Church.
So, knowing that Christ is present in the church through the Holy Spirit, having the possibility to go to church and yet, refusing to do so, is, to me, like saying: I want to go to heaven (after I die), but I don't want to unite with Christ (in present time).
It's like wanting more a place in heaven than being with Christ.
J
You would have to been unsaved, until you received Christ. I've always believed in the omniscience of God, which is evidenced by His knowledge, which transcends time. That He knows those saved, outcomes, doesn't mean His hand chooses any for damnation, or else these could not be true,
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
It would be like attributing "the Antichrist show" of Revelation God's doing, though God knows how all things will resolve, to the letter.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
It would be like attributing "the Antichrist show" of Revelation God's doing, though God knows how all things will resolve, to the letter.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.
yes!
i don't mean to give the impression that i am against H[SUB]2[/SUB]O baptism or against communion services or any such thing. it's just that i think if we forget the work of the Holy Spirit, or forget the work of God Himself through Christ, those things we do lose value - like how God said that adulterous Israel's sacrifices and prayers were abominations to Him (eg. Isaiah 1:13). i don't take communion because doing so literally covers me with the blood of atonement, but 'in remembrance' of the fact that His blood does cover me. the principle thing is circumcision of the heart, not the flesh. no matter what righteousness is worked in me, it's Christ my trust is in, nothing else!
i don't mean to give the impression that i am against H[SUB]2[/SUB]O baptism or against communion services or any such thing. it's just that i think if we forget the work of the Holy Spirit, or forget the work of God Himself through Christ, those things we do lose value - like how God said that adulterous Israel's sacrifices and prayers were abominations to Him (eg. Isaiah 1:13). i don't take communion because doing so literally covers me with the blood of atonement, but 'in remembrance' of the fact that His blood does cover me. the principle thing is circumcision of the heart, not the flesh. no matter what righteousness is worked in me, it's Christ my trust is in, nothing else!
I never said that and you are consistently adding to or twisting what is said by those who disagree with your heretical dogma...so...quit wasting good air and start getting the quotes right or keep it silent.....!
While I am at it.....start actually reading the bible and standing on the truth as the N.T. states clearly that ABRAHAM had faith and was found as RIGHTEOUS before God and before he had circumcision....!
While I am at it.....start actually reading the bible and standing on the truth as the N.T. states clearly that ABRAHAM had faith and was found as RIGHTEOUS before God and before he had circumcision....!
this is your quote....
this is what God said about circumcision...not me...I just did what you said I applied how God looked at circumcision to baptism...Abraham had faith before he was circumcised...but he had to obey the circumcision rule or else he would be cut off
Genesis 17:14
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
this is what God said about circumcision...not me...I just did what you said I applied how God looked at circumcision to baptism...Abraham had faith before he was circumcised...but he had to obey the circumcision rule or else he would be cut off
Genesis 17:14
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
[SUP]My fav verse. So simple only believe.
29 [/SUP]Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. [SUP]30 [/SUP]And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
[SUP]31 [/SUP]So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
29 [/SUP]Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. [SUP]30 [/SUP]And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
[SUP]31 [/SUP]So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;
that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
37This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel,
A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
The word translated congregation in the Old Testament is ekklesia in the Septuagintthe same identical
Greek word that is always translated church in the New Testament.
Israel was both church and state.
52But made his own people to go forth like sheep, and guided them in the wilderness like a flock.
53And he led them on safely, so that they feared not: but the sea overwhelmed their enemies.
54And he brought them to the border of his sanctuary, even to this mountain, which his right hand had purchased.
1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud,
and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4And did all drink the same spiritual drink:
for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
[h=3]1 Peter 2:9[/h]
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
[h=3][/h]
[h=3][/h]
“The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches:
and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches”
Christ is in the midst of those seven churches,
the seven churches are the seven eras from the time of Christ to the end.
“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him,
to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John”
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it:
for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
- this door is still open to be a pillar in his temple,
to patient saints who keep his commandments.
he will give out the spirit of knowledge, the latter rain is falling.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience,
I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation,
which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
- we are in this church era, the Laodiceans.
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
- he will pour out the spirit of the fear of the lord.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door,
I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne,
even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches”
Christ is in the midst of those seven churches,
the seven churches are the seven eras from the time of Christ to the end.
“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him,
to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John”
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it:
for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
- this door is still open to be a pillar in his temple,
to patient saints who keep his commandments.
he will give out the spirit of knowledge, the latter rain is falling.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience,
I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation,
which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
- we are in this church era, the Laodiceans.
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
- he will pour out the spirit of the fear of the lord.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door,
I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne,
even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.