I decided to make a new thread rather then hijacking and derailing the thread titled 144000 by Jillyanne.
The dialog between Kennethcadwell, JesusIsAll and myself went down as follows:
Now concerning the temple in Ezekiel 40-48...
Kenneth is correct is saying that the dimensions given do not match the second temple. But it is not like I can't give a theories why it wasn't. Most mainstream Christians believe this is a description of a yet (our) future temple that will be build by Jesus or Jews during or before a future millennium. I will try to demonstrated biblically that this view has more problems, even bordering to an extent of blasphemy, then the theories i will suggest..First I will give you my theories, then I will give you reasons why this can't be a future (our future) millennial temple.
My theories:
1) I said perhaps they didn't build it right in following the blueprint. This could be true, because during the time of the second temple it is recorded in Ezra that they had opposition and resistance regarding the building process. Their surrounding neighbors didn't want the Israelites there and give them problems (you can read about starting Ezra 4).
2) This ties in with theory 1) somewhat. In Ezekiel 43:10-11, God tells Ezekiel to give the plans to the Israelites if they are ashamed of their iniquities, if they are ashamed of all they've done, then make known to them the design of the temple and its arrangement.... If this was to be the model of the second temple, Zerubbabel's temple, perhaps it didn't get built to exact specifications because not all of the Jews who went into exile were repentant. See there is a condition involved to building this temple according to its exact specifications. We know that not all Jews in Babylon wanted to leave Babylon and didn't. They had their business, friends, mixed marriages most like, families etc. etc. Those that did leave weren't much better off, read some Jew repressed the poor, some men married Gentile women. We ready about the trouble the Israelites had in building from the opposition from their neighbors. Some Jews were ashamed, but not all, perhaps not enough. Perhaps Ezekiel never gave this plans to the Israelites because they did not repent before Ezekiel's death. Perhaps the book of Ezekiel was found later in Babylon later after the Jews return to Jerusalem. This theory is very probable. This could have a possible or potential temple (what might have been) IF the Jew were ashamed of their sin. However, IMO, just like Moses temple, this temple is not without spiritual value and meaning.
3) The vision given was not of a physical temple, but a spiritual one. We know the temple described to Moses has heavenly and spiritual applications described in Hebrews and other parts of scripture. This temple described in Ezekiel has definite spiritual qualities that goes against what we see in the natural realm. In Chapter 47, we see water flowing out of the temple, the temple was the source of the water flowing. As the LORD took Ezekiel out in the water, it got deeper and deeper as Ezekiel went. This goes against the natural characters of water, as water flows from it's source it gets less and less (evaporation, plant, animal and human life drink that water consume the water). This certainly a picture of heavenly things. Not only that, but it said that the plants along the river will provide food (different every month) and their leaves (that do not wither) for healing. This sounds much like John heavenly vision in Revelation 22. This river flow through the dead sea and brings it to life, for we see fishermen fishing and catching all kinds of fish (Gentiles, I believe) in their nets. To me, this sounds like the Church age, Christs kingdom on this side of reality (post eternal) and the work God is doing through the Church. When Christ came the first time, He brought His kingdom with Him. John the baptist declared it, and so did Jesus:
Jesus Begins His Galilean Ministry
14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom[e] of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” (Mark 1:15)
And Christs Kingdom was fully inaugurated at His ascension, were He now sits at the right hand of the Father. Christ depicts the Kingdom of heaven to be much like this spiritual vision in Ezekiel, "the kingdom of heaven is like...a small mustered seed grows into a big tree, a loft of bread with a little leaven to start off with but fills the whole lump, ...
The Parable of the Dragnet
47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. (Matt. 13:47)
I could say more, but like most of you I don't like long posts...but with topic and the garbage being thrown around it's a must. Sorry if that offends some of you, but I must be true to my convictions.
______________________________________________________________________
Now I will address the problems with Ezekiel's temple being the millennial temple, the popular mainstream dispensationalist view and I'll demonstrate, biblically, that this temple can not (it's impossible) be a future millennial temple.
1) In Ezekiel 44:22, it says about the priests" [SUP]22 [/SUP]They shall not take as wife a widow or a divorced woman, but take virgins of the descendants of the house of Israel, or widows of priests. Most dispensationalist will argue that this temple is after Christ's return, so called rapture of the Church, were He reign with an iron fist. So the current believers are resurrected at the rapture and serve Christ in some way. However, Jesus said in Luke 20 that after the resurrection no man will marry. After the resurrection marriage is done away with.
34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
2) Also in the resurrection of the Saints, Jesus says there is no more death, see verse 36 in the verse above. Now look back to ezekiel's passage about the priesthood's condition of marriage, they can marry a woman of a deceased priest. Now why would Ezekiel put that in there if there is no more death? The passage in Ezekiel suggest that there will be death, because a priest can marry a deceased priest's wife. To say this temple is a millennial temple flies in the face of scripture, this is what the Paul says after the resurrection: (would recommend you read all of 1 Corinthians 15):
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”[g]
55 “O Death, where is your sting?[h]
O Hades, where is your victory?”
Dispensationalist will try to explain this away by saying there is more then 1 physical resurrection, and actual split 1 coming of Christ into two, claiming it is still 1, or a secret one, however this view has no biblical merit. (besides a spiritual resurrection, that bible calls regeneration when you first get saved). The bible teach Christ will come with a loud noise, not a secret coming.
3) In Ezekiel 44:9, God tells Ezekiel condition for temple service is that one needs to be circumcised of the heart and flesh. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Thus says the Lord God: “No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart or uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter My sanctuary, including any foreigner who is among the children of Israel. The NT clearly states that circumcision of the flesh has no value before God.
Galatians 5:6
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
1 Corinthians 7:19
19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.
Galatians 6:15
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
So God is only concerned with circumcision of the heart, not the flesh. But in Ezekiel's you had to have both which indicts that if this temple were to be built, it had to have been before the NT, the new covenant, pre-Christ's first coming. So what, are going back to the old covenant in the millennium people? The old covenant that the writer of Hebrews said was about to vanish way and was obsolete? If this temple is for the the future, it flies in the face of scripture. God never says He's going to resurrect the old covenant. (see Hebrews 8:13 below).
4) In Ezekiel's temple, animal sacrifices are performed for the taking way of sin. Chapter 40:38-39 gives a description of some of the instruments uses in animal sacrifice:
[SUP]38 [/SUP]There was a chamber and its entrance by the gateposts of the gateway, where they washed the burnt offering. [SUP]39 [/SUP]In the vestibule of the gateway were two tables on this side and two tables on that side, on which to slay the burnt offering, the sin offering, and the trespass offering.
Chapter 43:18-22 actually tells these animal sacrifice are for atonement, a sin offering, and burnt offerings:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And He said to me, “Son of man, thus says the Lord God: ‘These are the ordinances for the altar on the day when it is made, for sacrificing burnt offerings on it, and for sprinkling blood on it. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You shall give a young bull for a sin offering to the priests, the Levites, who are of the seed of Zadok, (btw, does any know who these men are, sure God would, but how do we verify the ones doing the work are the the right sons of Zadok?) who approach Me to minister to Me,’ says the Lord God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]‘You shall take some of its blood and put it on the four horns of the altar, on the four corners of the ledge, and on the rim around it; thus you shall cleanse it and make atonement for it. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then you shall also take the bull of the sin offering, and burn it in the appointed place of the temple, outside the sanctuary. [SUP]22 [/SUP]On the second day you shall offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering;
To say that animal sacrifices will be performed in the millennium is blasphemous according the writer of Hebrews, not only that but the bible clearly states that God never took pleasure in animal sacrifices or burnt offerings (God did it to shadow the atonement of Jesus upon the Cross). In Hebrews 10:10 the writer says Christ took away the sins of the world once for ALL. There is no need to back to temple, priest and sacrifice. To go back to these things Hewbrews says would be trampling on the blood of Christ (Hewbrews 10:29).
Christ’s Death Fulfills God’s Will
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: (a quote of King David, Palms 40)
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’”
10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?The author is talking about those people who for some reason go back to the old system of sacrifice.
Hebrews 8:13
13 In that He says, “A newcovenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Most Dispensationalists will try to explain this away by saying these sacrifices are is done just as a memorial to the LORD, such as our LORD's table of communion we do in church. Now where in scripture is it commanded to do these things as a memorial.Conclusion: This temple can not be a future temple of any kind. It can only be applied spiritually and /or to a time before Christ's coming in Jerusalem's history were Old Testament/Covenant practices were in place. The new replaces the old with better promises. Scripture makes this abundantly clear, and also states that God's temple is His Church with Christ as its head, built not with the hands of men (not like Ezekiel's temple, clearly the instructions where give for men to construct) but God Himself.
This post took a long time to construct. I will not reply with questions or comments for a while. Thanks to Steve Gregg for his insightful teaching and dedication to God in discerning the truth of God's holy Word in whom I got most of this material from but I constructed in my own words.
Steve Gregg's website > http://www.thenarrowpath.com/verse_by_verse.php <
The dialog between Kennethcadwell, JesusIsAll and myself went down as follows:
Now concerning the temple in Ezekiel 40-48...
Kenneth is correct is saying that the dimensions given do not match the second temple. But it is not like I can't give a theories why it wasn't. Most mainstream Christians believe this is a description of a yet (our) future temple that will be build by Jesus or Jews during or before a future millennium. I will try to demonstrated biblically that this view has more problems, even bordering to an extent of blasphemy, then the theories i will suggest..First I will give you my theories, then I will give you reasons why this can't be a future (our future) millennial temple.
My theories:
1) I said perhaps they didn't build it right in following the blueprint. This could be true, because during the time of the second temple it is recorded in Ezra that they had opposition and resistance regarding the building process. Their surrounding neighbors didn't want the Israelites there and give them problems (you can read about starting Ezra 4).
2) This ties in with theory 1) somewhat. In Ezekiel 43:10-11, God tells Ezekiel to give the plans to the Israelites if they are ashamed of their iniquities, if they are ashamed of all they've done, then make known to them the design of the temple and its arrangement.... If this was to be the model of the second temple, Zerubbabel's temple, perhaps it didn't get built to exact specifications because not all of the Jews who went into exile were repentant. See there is a condition involved to building this temple according to its exact specifications. We know that not all Jews in Babylon wanted to leave Babylon and didn't. They had their business, friends, mixed marriages most like, families etc. etc. Those that did leave weren't much better off, read some Jew repressed the poor, some men married Gentile women. We ready about the trouble the Israelites had in building from the opposition from their neighbors. Some Jews were ashamed, but not all, perhaps not enough. Perhaps Ezekiel never gave this plans to the Israelites because they did not repent before Ezekiel's death. Perhaps the book of Ezekiel was found later in Babylon later after the Jews return to Jerusalem. This theory is very probable. This could have a possible or potential temple (what might have been) IF the Jew were ashamed of their sin. However, IMO, just like Moses temple, this temple is not without spiritual value and meaning.
3) The vision given was not of a physical temple, but a spiritual one. We know the temple described to Moses has heavenly and spiritual applications described in Hebrews and other parts of scripture. This temple described in Ezekiel has definite spiritual qualities that goes against what we see in the natural realm. In Chapter 47, we see water flowing out of the temple, the temple was the source of the water flowing. As the LORD took Ezekiel out in the water, it got deeper and deeper as Ezekiel went. This goes against the natural characters of water, as water flows from it's source it gets less and less (evaporation, plant, animal and human life drink that water consume the water). This certainly a picture of heavenly things. Not only that, but it said that the plants along the river will provide food (different every month) and their leaves (that do not wither) for healing. This sounds much like John heavenly vision in Revelation 22. This river flow through the dead sea and brings it to life, for we see fishermen fishing and catching all kinds of fish (Gentiles, I believe) in their nets. To me, this sounds like the Church age, Christs kingdom on this side of reality (post eternal) and the work God is doing through the Church. When Christ came the first time, He brought His kingdom with Him. John the baptist declared it, and so did Jesus:
Jesus Begins His Galilean Ministry
14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom[e] of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” (Mark 1:15)
And Christs Kingdom was fully inaugurated at His ascension, were He now sits at the right hand of the Father. Christ depicts the Kingdom of heaven to be much like this spiritual vision in Ezekiel, "the kingdom of heaven is like...a small mustered seed grows into a big tree, a loft of bread with a little leaven to start off with but fills the whole lump, ...
The Parable of the Dragnet
47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. (Matt. 13:47)
I could say more, but like most of you I don't like long posts...but with topic and the garbage being thrown around it's a must. Sorry if that offends some of you, but I must be true to my convictions.
______________________________________________________________________
Now I will address the problems with Ezekiel's temple being the millennial temple, the popular mainstream dispensationalist view and I'll demonstrate, biblically, that this temple can not (it's impossible) be a future millennial temple.
1) In Ezekiel 44:22, it says about the priests" [SUP]22 [/SUP]They shall not take as wife a widow or a divorced woman, but take virgins of the descendants of the house of Israel, or widows of priests. Most dispensationalist will argue that this temple is after Christ's return, so called rapture of the Church, were He reign with an iron fist. So the current believers are resurrected at the rapture and serve Christ in some way. However, Jesus said in Luke 20 that after the resurrection no man will marry. After the resurrection marriage is done away with.
34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
2) Also in the resurrection of the Saints, Jesus says there is no more death, see verse 36 in the verse above. Now look back to ezekiel's passage about the priesthood's condition of marriage, they can marry a woman of a deceased priest. Now why would Ezekiel put that in there if there is no more death? The passage in Ezekiel suggest that there will be death, because a priest can marry a deceased priest's wife. To say this temple is a millennial temple flies in the face of scripture, this is what the Paul says after the resurrection: (would recommend you read all of 1 Corinthians 15):
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”[g]
55 “O Death, where is your sting?[h]
O Hades, where is your victory?”
Dispensationalist will try to explain this away by saying there is more then 1 physical resurrection, and actual split 1 coming of Christ into two, claiming it is still 1, or a secret one, however this view has no biblical merit. (besides a spiritual resurrection, that bible calls regeneration when you first get saved). The bible teach Christ will come with a loud noise, not a secret coming.
3) In Ezekiel 44:9, God tells Ezekiel condition for temple service is that one needs to be circumcised of the heart and flesh. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Thus says the Lord God: “No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart or uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter My sanctuary, including any foreigner who is among the children of Israel. The NT clearly states that circumcision of the flesh has no value before God.
Galatians 5:6
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
1 Corinthians 7:19
19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.
Galatians 6:15
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
So God is only concerned with circumcision of the heart, not the flesh. But in Ezekiel's you had to have both which indicts that if this temple were to be built, it had to have been before the NT, the new covenant, pre-Christ's first coming. So what, are going back to the old covenant in the millennium people? The old covenant that the writer of Hebrews said was about to vanish way and was obsolete? If this temple is for the the future, it flies in the face of scripture. God never says He's going to resurrect the old covenant. (see Hebrews 8:13 below).
4) In Ezekiel's temple, animal sacrifices are performed for the taking way of sin. Chapter 40:38-39 gives a description of some of the instruments uses in animal sacrifice:
[SUP]38 [/SUP]There was a chamber and its entrance by the gateposts of the gateway, where they washed the burnt offering. [SUP]39 [/SUP]In the vestibule of the gateway were two tables on this side and two tables on that side, on which to slay the burnt offering, the sin offering, and the trespass offering.
Chapter 43:18-22 actually tells these animal sacrifice are for atonement, a sin offering, and burnt offerings:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And He said to me, “Son of man, thus says the Lord God: ‘These are the ordinances for the altar on the day when it is made, for sacrificing burnt offerings on it, and for sprinkling blood on it. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You shall give a young bull for a sin offering to the priests, the Levites, who are of the seed of Zadok, (btw, does any know who these men are, sure God would, but how do we verify the ones doing the work are the the right sons of Zadok?) who approach Me to minister to Me,’ says the Lord God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]‘You shall take some of its blood and put it on the four horns of the altar, on the four corners of the ledge, and on the rim around it; thus you shall cleanse it and make atonement for it. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then you shall also take the bull of the sin offering, and burn it in the appointed place of the temple, outside the sanctuary. [SUP]22 [/SUP]On the second day you shall offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering;
To say that animal sacrifices will be performed in the millennium is blasphemous according the writer of Hebrews, not only that but the bible clearly states that God never took pleasure in animal sacrifices or burnt offerings (God did it to shadow the atonement of Jesus upon the Cross). In Hebrews 10:10 the writer says Christ took away the sins of the world once for ALL. There is no need to back to temple, priest and sacrifice. To go back to these things Hewbrews says would be trampling on the blood of Christ (Hewbrews 10:29).
Christ’s Death Fulfills God’s Will
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: (a quote of King David, Palms 40)
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’”
10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?The author is talking about those people who for some reason go back to the old system of sacrifice.
Hebrews 8:13
13 In that He says, “A newcovenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Most Dispensationalists will try to explain this away by saying these sacrifices are is done just as a memorial to the LORD, such as our LORD's table of communion we do in church. Now where in scripture is it commanded to do these things as a memorial.Conclusion: This temple can not be a future temple of any kind. It can only be applied spiritually and /or to a time before Christ's coming in Jerusalem's history were Old Testament/Covenant practices were in place. The new replaces the old with better promises. Scripture makes this abundantly clear, and also states that God's temple is His Church with Christ as its head, built not with the hands of men (not like Ezekiel's temple, clearly the instructions where give for men to construct) but God Himself.
This post took a long time to construct. I will not reply with questions or comments for a while. Thanks to Steve Gregg for his insightful teaching and dedication to God in discerning the truth of God's holy Word in whom I got most of this material from but I constructed in my own words.
Steve Gregg's website > http://www.thenarrowpath.com/verse_by_verse.php <
