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It is true Hizikyah. But the word "citizenship" is a strong word and it had a certain resonance in early Christianity and in the Roman empire. I think that Paul used this very political and "worldly" word on purpose; just like when he proclaims Jesus to be King. The christians risked a lot when they affirmed: Jesus is King! in a world dominated by Caesar.
We now tend to diminish this strong meaning of the words "citizenship", "kingdom", "King", but it is this very reason that got the Christians persecuted. They not only believed that their citizenship is in heaven, but they lived their lives in such a way to demonstrate that there is no political regime that would change that fact, that reality. They were living in the kingdom of God, as citizens of that kingdom and refused to bow in front of an earthly king or ruler, or gods etc. They lived as if heaven was on earth.
We now tend to diminish this strong meaning of the words "citizenship", "kingdom", "King", but it is this very reason that got the Christians persecuted. They not only believed that their citizenship is in heaven, but they lived their lives in such a way to demonstrate that there is no political regime that would change that fact, that reality. They were living in the kingdom of God, as citizens of that kingdom and refused to bow in front of an earthly king or ruler, or gods etc. They lived as if heaven was on earth.
Yes, but there still are some biblically based Churches, and even if there is some human error in non-essential things, we should not forsake the gathering of the believers.
John 17:21
21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
[h=3]Walk in Unity (Ephesians 4)[/h]4 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you[a] all.
How are we doing Jillyanne, as a whole, the universal Church?, What you rate the Church on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being disunity and 10 being unified. You can use this web forum as an indicator if you like!
John 17:21
21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
[h=3]Walk in Unity (Ephesians 4)[/h]4 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you[a] all.
How are we doing Jillyanne, as a whole, the universal Church?, What you rate the Church on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being disunity and 10 being unified. You can use this web forum as an indicator if you like!
Yes, internet forums are not a substitute for gathering together as a local body.
Home churches are growing.
There are several shut-ins from our congregation that have asked people to join them in weekly worship.
One of the struggles I faced, many years back, was feeling like my family were the only Believers in the community we had just moved to. We attended both of the local churches (small town) and found one was dead, and the other was liberal.
It took several weeks, many conversations, and many awkward invitations, but we eventually found a group of strong Believers in a nearby town.
We are not alone, even when we feel alone. And God will bring others alongside us. Pray if you are in need of fellowship, and God will surely answer.
Home churches are growing.
There are several shut-ins from our congregation that have asked people to join them in weekly worship.
One of the struggles I faced, many years back, was feeling like my family were the only Believers in the community we had just moved to. We attended both of the local churches (small town) and found one was dead, and the other was liberal.
It took several weeks, many conversations, and many awkward invitations, but we eventually found a group of strong Believers in a nearby town.
We are not alone, even when we feel alone. And God will bring others alongside us. Pray if you are in need of fellowship, and God will surely answer.
The gathering of the saints is ANY mode of contact outside of your own selves. If what one thinks is "church" is looking more and more like the world, it is because it was the world who BUILT every building they go to worship in! If the bottom line is paying the bills off, then that building is a BUSINESS, like Walmart. It's just tax free.
I understand, and sympathize with your position against business oriented congregations,
But I must fully disagree that gathering can be anything other than physical.
Discipleship requires personal relationship and ACCOUNTABILITY.
How can I be held accountable to someone who has never seen my walk, but only knows what I post about myself.
Isolation breeds false doctrines, and strong opinions.
Even gathering with weaker brothers and sisters will strengthen our faith, and raise them up.
For the sake of maturity, and for the sake of the Kingdom,
gather with your local Believers.
But I must fully disagree that gathering can be anything other than physical.
Discipleship requires personal relationship and ACCOUNTABILITY.
How can I be held accountable to someone who has never seen my walk, but only knows what I post about myself.
Isolation breeds false doctrines, and strong opinions.
Even gathering with weaker brothers and sisters will strengthen our faith, and raise them up.
For the sake of maturity, and for the sake of the Kingdom,
gather with your local Believers.
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I have met 2 kinds of people who claim Christ, yet refuse to gather: the shameful and the prideful.
The first is the carnal Christian, who is too embarrassed to gather.
The second is the self proclaimed teacher, who feels they are too learned to be amongst lesser Believers,
or that they are one of the elite who know the truth, and everyone else is deceived, other than some person they idolize and watch on YouTube or read from on a website.
Pride tells us to isolate ourselves. Shame tells us to isolate ourselves.
Humility demands that we gather with and serve our fellow Believers.
Sometimes when we feel like we can't find a "good" church, the issue is within ourselves,
and other times, it is that one of those congregations is missing a needed member: you.
The first is the carnal Christian, who is too embarrassed to gather.
The second is the self proclaimed teacher, who feels they are too learned to be amongst lesser Believers,
or that they are one of the elite who know the truth, and everyone else is deceived, other than some person they idolize and watch on YouTube or read from on a website.
Pride tells us to isolate ourselves. Shame tells us to isolate ourselves.
Humility demands that we gather with and serve our fellow Believers.
Sometimes when we feel like we can't find a "good" church, the issue is within ourselves,
and other times, it is that one of those congregations is missing a needed member: you.
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Do you obey God in how you talk or act accordingly when on the phone? How about now on CC? "Isolation" means different things to different people like some being claustrophobic. Others don't mind being cramped.
For some, they need personal contact with others. For some, a voice will do. Others need minimum contact and love it, to each his own. They all do it to The Lord!
Maturity comes from applying wisdom to any knowledge, and most are but babes in Christ even today.
In law according to the paper most defend, we are all considered children on the foundation paperwork! This is why we need people over us to hand out benefits and tell us our rights. This is why we still need and go to a building to have some other man tell us what God is like.
Another problem is that you don't have to validate your walk to me or any other man. You are breathing, and that is validation enough for me. Thus let everyman work out his own salvation.
For some, they need personal contact with others. For some, a voice will do. Others need minimum contact and love it, to each his own. They all do it to The Lord!
Maturity comes from applying wisdom to any knowledge, and most are but babes in Christ even today.
In law according to the paper most defend, we are all considered children on the foundation paperwork! This is why we need people over us to hand out benefits and tell us our rights. This is why we still need and go to a building to have some other man tell us what God is like.
Another problem is that you don't have to validate your walk to me or any other man. You are breathing, and that is validation enough for me. Thus let everyman work out his own salvation.
J
These are some pretty big blankets you spread because I could counter that with 2 kinds of Christians I see IN church: those who cannot think outside their institutions and those who simply go to church to align with "right" DOings. I am not naive enough to believe that everyone fits in those 2 categories albeit.
I'm seeing Christians moving to other buildings, not just leaving them. A scenario....a young Christian couple moves here, attends a big old church. The old founders with old money have almost all gone on to Heaven. Financial pressure increases, especially if the pastor has been preaching hope for wealth is evil, and are afraid to offend folks by mentioning tithing. "Donation" is interpreted in terms of $1 to heaven forbid $5 from each bench warmer a service, while costs run double the total donation collected. More and more time is spent each service appealing for more donations to keep the church repaired, utilities and salaries paid, and supported missionaries not left abandoned. While it's very common for the older long-time saints to have wealth, it they who have met the bulk of expenses to have their place of worship, while the younger struggle, maybe burdened with a huge student loan debt and no decent job. I understand. The last big church we were members of spent $40,000 to hire a promotional speaker to urge us all to sacrifice whatever it took to meet a lofty financial goal. Sell your boat, sell your couch, yield up your retirement savings, liquidate that college fund. Many life members left, further threatening the stability of that church. People come, they go, like watching riders line up, ride the circus ride, then move on to the next ride. That tends to stop growth in any church if they can't keep and minister to the ones coming.
Let me give some examples of what's changed around our area, maybe giving some ideas for you. I found most of our friends using a former grocery store building for a house of worship. It only takes one or two tithers to cover the monthly rent. The building is used daily, for a Scout meeting, a place for veterans to assemble to ride a bus to the VA hospital, or such ministries of women using the former deli shop part to teach new wives to cook, and there's classes on caring for a baby, and a toddler-raising class, and an after school activities service.
Our former "Music Minister" drew a salary to arrange 3 congregation songs out of a list of 12 favorites sung every service for years without a new song added. He spent his week in his church office mostly tinkering and recording himself. Delivered from that burden, our volunteers are learning to stand and lead in a song from where they sit. Volunteers serve to run youth groups, so there is deliverance from a Youth Pastor salary, too. No robes for a choir, but some of the folks are good soloists and we have a gospel barber-shop style quartet of men that are business owners. The theme is not to get sinners into the church, but to equip members to go out to minister to sinners and the needy. The idea is to bring new Christians in for discipleship.
An idea. I am not tied to that building like I was formerly, but am called upon to teach Bible and lay-preach wherever needed. Many of our county churches can't keep a pastor for lack of financial ability, many congregations down to one family in "the middle of nowhere". There are a few dozen of us from different churches that are helping other churches when not present in our home churches.
Another idea for someone. My wife and I don't smoke, but you would think so if you visited us in our home. We have a procession of folks needing counseling, coming with their stink, domestic bruises, vulgar tattoos, addictions, fears, and great needs. Our ministry should end when the lights are off and we're in bed, but then the phone takes over. It's tiring physcially, but it is what WE are called to do.
Unless disabled and home bound involuntarily I can't wink over someone staying home always, getting all their fellowship through a computer. Phobias about leaving the house are treatable. Just getting out and finding ways to interact with people in real-time ministers joy to the minister of helps.
Another idea. Can't lead people to the Lord, or teach Bible? How about serving a meal at a mission house? I saw a loose floor board on a widow's porch, so asked to fix it free. She asked "Why?" I said I was a Christian, and God pointed out her need, something I was able to do for Him. It would cost her nothing. It turned out most of the floor boards needed replacement. I got the materials and spent the day fixing. She didn't come to the door to thank me, not that I needed that. About a year later she showed up in church, still there. I suspect it took her that long to acquire a nice dress, as she wore the same one always until our ladies took her shopping at no cost to her or the church, but from their own pockets. I missed that opportunity a year earlier, not paying attention to such details. My wife would have picked up on that immediately then, but might have not noticed the wood-work need. That sort of thing counts as God-approved ministry.
I have grown to appreciate how the first century Church held services, out of sight, persecuted, no building to worship in. There is no good reason for the modern Church to be beyond such persecution, for it we all were about our Father's business, the world would hate us, yet take whatever we can bless them with.
Let me give some examples of what's changed around our area, maybe giving some ideas for you. I found most of our friends using a former grocery store building for a house of worship. It only takes one or two tithers to cover the monthly rent. The building is used daily, for a Scout meeting, a place for veterans to assemble to ride a bus to the VA hospital, or such ministries of women using the former deli shop part to teach new wives to cook, and there's classes on caring for a baby, and a toddler-raising class, and an after school activities service.
Our former "Music Minister" drew a salary to arrange 3 congregation songs out of a list of 12 favorites sung every service for years without a new song added. He spent his week in his church office mostly tinkering and recording himself. Delivered from that burden, our volunteers are learning to stand and lead in a song from where they sit. Volunteers serve to run youth groups, so there is deliverance from a Youth Pastor salary, too. No robes for a choir, but some of the folks are good soloists and we have a gospel barber-shop style quartet of men that are business owners. The theme is not to get sinners into the church, but to equip members to go out to minister to sinners and the needy. The idea is to bring new Christians in for discipleship.
An idea. I am not tied to that building like I was formerly, but am called upon to teach Bible and lay-preach wherever needed. Many of our county churches can't keep a pastor for lack of financial ability, many congregations down to one family in "the middle of nowhere". There are a few dozen of us from different churches that are helping other churches when not present in our home churches.
Another idea for someone. My wife and I don't smoke, but you would think so if you visited us in our home. We have a procession of folks needing counseling, coming with their stink, domestic bruises, vulgar tattoos, addictions, fears, and great needs. Our ministry should end when the lights are off and we're in bed, but then the phone takes over. It's tiring physcially, but it is what WE are called to do.
Unless disabled and home bound involuntarily I can't wink over someone staying home always, getting all their fellowship through a computer. Phobias about leaving the house are treatable. Just getting out and finding ways to interact with people in real-time ministers joy to the minister of helps.
Another idea. Can't lead people to the Lord, or teach Bible? How about serving a meal at a mission house? I saw a loose floor board on a widow's porch, so asked to fix it free. She asked "Why?" I said I was a Christian, and God pointed out her need, something I was able to do for Him. It would cost her nothing. It turned out most of the floor boards needed replacement. I got the materials and spent the day fixing. She didn't come to the door to thank me, not that I needed that. About a year later she showed up in church, still there. I suspect it took her that long to acquire a nice dress, as she wore the same one always until our ladies took her shopping at no cost to her or the church, but from their own pockets. I missed that opportunity a year earlier, not paying attention to such details. My wife would have picked up on that immediately then, but might have not noticed the wood-work need. That sort of thing counts as God-approved ministry.
I have grown to appreciate how the first century Church held services, out of sight, persecuted, no building to worship in. There is no good reason for the modern Church to be beyond such persecution, for it we all were about our Father's business, the world would hate us, yet take whatever we can bless them with.
