Condemning the Signs & Wonder Movements and Allegations Against Pastor Bill Johnson,
Yesterday, Monday, December 1, in the late afternoon (eastern standard time); I was engaged in a conversation with members of CC in the CC Bible Study room. The main topic of conversation was revolving around issues related to signs and wonders and various movements of Charisma like: Catch The Fire (CTF) Church (a.k.a.: Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship in Toronto and Bethel Church in California and I think another one, which I am not familiar with: the church in Texas). In this conversation, the first (what I viewed as) "arrows" of condemnation were shot at Todd Bentley, and because of the fact that leaders at CTF invited and promoted Bentley to minister in their church especially as he began his ministry, CTF was dammed as well. I have never heard CTF church leaders publicly distance themselves from Todd Bentley and his sin, once it became apparent, but I've never heard them endorse any of Bentley's sinful actions as appropriate, either.
Pointing the finger at Bentley for his dangerous and completely inappropriate actions in public ministry and his adultery, immoral divorce and later, "pornea" marriage to his adulterous partner can be argued to be appropriate to address publically by other believers in such a discussion. I get it, Bentley sinned publically and repeatedly and was NOT in a timely fashion or properly handled (in my view) by the overseeing leaders to whom he SHOULD have been accountable. I agree, the handling of Bentley was a debacle.
What concerns me is how we, as a fellow believers, treat such persons in positions of leadership who have flagrantly sinned, in public. I believe that, scripturally, there is a place for the private (and public, one could argrue) expression of disgust and disappointment in Bentley's sinful activities. And I believe that HOW & WHY this publically addressing of an leaders' sin is done is essential. Clearly, in this case, with Bentley, there is no sign of this "restored" leaders' truly repentant attitude and action for his clear sin and ongoing heresy. This does NOT, however, absolve us from our responsibility for being careful that we do not fall into sin when we speak of or to another (Galatians 6:1). Sometimes I get concerned for how we as Christians damn a Christian leader in public. I think what I'm looking for is a redemptive attitude towards these "fallen" persons and I guess where I get concerned is for what I sense may be a hateful attitude towards these persons who are clearly sinning and are not being handled appropriately by the authorities around them. Yes, my redemptive gift is mercy (and I do not apologize for seeing these issues from the perspective of a "Mercy" and I recognize my need for the balance of the Body of Christ's other redemptive gifts operating in conjunction with what I'm saying here. I'm not saying that I have the whole picture and I am open to correction.
During the (referred to above) conversation in the CC bible study room strong allegations and damning comments came up against Bethel Church and senior pastor, Bill Johnson, alleging or accusing that he was involved in a heretical concept referred to as: "grave sucking" or "mantle grabbing". The online reference that was used was:
http:\youthapologeticstraining.com/grave-sucking
I found the tone and timbre of many of the allegations that were made in the room very damning and negatively critical against present Christian movements that allow for signs and wonders and it gave me pause to be curious about why there was such sweeping condemnation of such movements based on the both confirmed (Todd Bentley) and alleged sinful actions (Bill Johnson) of a few. Since I know and appreciate Bill Johnson's ministry (I must say that I am not an expert on him, however I have never heard such damning allegations against him or the church he leads: Bethel Church, in California), I am examining the in-room & cited online claims and allegations against Bill Johnson: that he is involved with this heretical process of "grave-sucking" (as I have heard it described in these allegations). I will report my findings here and invite good scholarly debate on the allegations.
There were other allegations and insinuations made in the CC Bible Study room that the peculiar "manifestations" of various people in some of the services run by some of the above mentioned the "Signs & Wonders" churches were of the "kundalini spirit" (I'll let you research or Google this Eastern religious manifestation of demonic possession/oppresion), if you like). In my opinion, these unusual manifestations are prone to erroneous judgement by those fearful of such peculiar displays or quick to be critical. My experience has been that some of those bizarre behaviours ARE explainable in terms that any Christian would heartily agree with and may even cause some to weep or shout for Joy for the way these actions glorify God.
For the uninitiated, I'll explain that "grave-sucking" is a process that is described as gaining "spiritual power" or anointing via a supernatural transfer from a dead person who has this "power" and can be received by living persons. I do NOT in any way see this concept ads being Biblical. However, I DO see that Elijah did pass on a "mantle" or "spiritual authority" to Elisha which included Elisha being able to pray for and act in ways that exhibited an increased spiritual authority or "power". Clearly, Jesus sent out His disciples with authority and power to do various forms of signs and wonders in His Name. So the idea of having and transferring spiritual power is NOT alien to the Bible's narrative. But I find, nowhere, any reference to such spiritual transfer happening from a dead person to one who is alive. Anecdotally, I do find evidence of various forms of pagan ritualistic practice where this type of thing occurs. And in this case, where involves pagan ritual, I think that what is going on is the transfer of demons and possibly other constructs from the dead to the living. This grave-sucking staff is clearly heretical.
In due diligence and, I trust, Christian Love,
dave_in_KWC
Yesterday, Monday, December 1, in the late afternoon (eastern standard time); I was engaged in a conversation with members of CC in the CC Bible Study room. The main topic of conversation was revolving around issues related to signs and wonders and various movements of Charisma like: Catch The Fire (CTF) Church (a.k.a.: Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship in Toronto and Bethel Church in California and I think another one, which I am not familiar with: the church in Texas). In this conversation, the first (what I viewed as) "arrows" of condemnation were shot at Todd Bentley, and because of the fact that leaders at CTF invited and promoted Bentley to minister in their church especially as he began his ministry, CTF was dammed as well. I have never heard CTF church leaders publicly distance themselves from Todd Bentley and his sin, once it became apparent, but I've never heard them endorse any of Bentley's sinful actions as appropriate, either.
Pointing the finger at Bentley for his dangerous and completely inappropriate actions in public ministry and his adultery, immoral divorce and later, "pornea" marriage to his adulterous partner can be argued to be appropriate to address publically by other believers in such a discussion. I get it, Bentley sinned publically and repeatedly and was NOT in a timely fashion or properly handled (in my view) by the overseeing leaders to whom he SHOULD have been accountable. I agree, the handling of Bentley was a debacle.
What concerns me is how we, as a fellow believers, treat such persons in positions of leadership who have flagrantly sinned, in public. I believe that, scripturally, there is a place for the private (and public, one could argrue) expression of disgust and disappointment in Bentley's sinful activities. And I believe that HOW & WHY this publically addressing of an leaders' sin is done is essential. Clearly, in this case, with Bentley, there is no sign of this "restored" leaders' truly repentant attitude and action for his clear sin and ongoing heresy. This does NOT, however, absolve us from our responsibility for being careful that we do not fall into sin when we speak of or to another (Galatians 6:1). Sometimes I get concerned for how we as Christians damn a Christian leader in public. I think what I'm looking for is a redemptive attitude towards these "fallen" persons and I guess where I get concerned is for what I sense may be a hateful attitude towards these persons who are clearly sinning and are not being handled appropriately by the authorities around them. Yes, my redemptive gift is mercy (and I do not apologize for seeing these issues from the perspective of a "Mercy" and I recognize my need for the balance of the Body of Christ's other redemptive gifts operating in conjunction with what I'm saying here. I'm not saying that I have the whole picture and I am open to correction.
During the (referred to above) conversation in the CC bible study room strong allegations and damning comments came up against Bethel Church and senior pastor, Bill Johnson, alleging or accusing that he was involved in a heretical concept referred to as: "grave sucking" or "mantle grabbing". The online reference that was used was:
http:\youthapologeticstraining.com/grave-sucking
I found the tone and timbre of many of the allegations that were made in the room very damning and negatively critical against present Christian movements that allow for signs and wonders and it gave me pause to be curious about why there was such sweeping condemnation of such movements based on the both confirmed (Todd Bentley) and alleged sinful actions (Bill Johnson) of a few. Since I know and appreciate Bill Johnson's ministry (I must say that I am not an expert on him, however I have never heard such damning allegations against him or the church he leads: Bethel Church, in California), I am examining the in-room & cited online claims and allegations against Bill Johnson: that he is involved with this heretical process of "grave-sucking" (as I have heard it described in these allegations). I will report my findings here and invite good scholarly debate on the allegations.
There were other allegations and insinuations made in the CC Bible Study room that the peculiar "manifestations" of various people in some of the services run by some of the above mentioned the "Signs & Wonders" churches were of the "kundalini spirit" (I'll let you research or Google this Eastern religious manifestation of demonic possession/oppresion), if you like). In my opinion, these unusual manifestations are prone to erroneous judgement by those fearful of such peculiar displays or quick to be critical. My experience has been that some of those bizarre behaviours ARE explainable in terms that any Christian would heartily agree with and may even cause some to weep or shout for Joy for the way these actions glorify God.
For the uninitiated, I'll explain that "grave-sucking" is a process that is described as gaining "spiritual power" or anointing via a supernatural transfer from a dead person who has this "power" and can be received by living persons. I do NOT in any way see this concept ads being Biblical. However, I DO see that Elijah did pass on a "mantle" or "spiritual authority" to Elisha which included Elisha being able to pray for and act in ways that exhibited an increased spiritual authority or "power". Clearly, Jesus sent out His disciples with authority and power to do various forms of signs and wonders in His Name. So the idea of having and transferring spiritual power is NOT alien to the Bible's narrative. But I find, nowhere, any reference to such spiritual transfer happening from a dead person to one who is alive. Anecdotally, I do find evidence of various forms of pagan ritualistic practice where this type of thing occurs. And in this case, where involves pagan ritual, I think that what is going on is the transfer of demons and possibly other constructs from the dead to the living. This grave-sucking staff is clearly heretical.
In due diligence and, I trust, Christian Love,
dave_in_KWC
