Confusing Scripture From the Apostle Paul

phil112 · Dec 3, 2014

Those works aren't that hard to figure out. Works is simply physical movement. When you move, make that motion in God's honor. Walt the walk, as in be humble, be honest, honor your elders and your parents. Be a good father and husband...all that we are instructed to do and be as christians. Praise God. Pray without ceasing, tell everyone that will listen about salvation and Christ.

Be the kind of man that doesn't have to tell people he is a christian. Be the kind of man that people will look at and watch and think to themselves "He must be saved. I can tell by the way he acts."

Hizikyah · Dec 3, 2014

Galatians 5:18, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

If you are lead by the Spirit you will not do anything in oppisition to the Law.

When you are driving as long as you go beloew the speed limit you will have no negative consequence (ticket) while yet having the benefit of being safe because you are driving the proper speed on a particular road.

The Spirit and the Law say the EXACT SAME THING. this is the next verse:

Galatians 5:19, "For the works of the flesh are obvious, which are these: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, licentiousness, Idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, evil jealousies, rage, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies; sects or factions of division, Envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I warn you beforehand, just as I did in times past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Every single one of these is forbidden in Yahweh's Law, aka in opposition to the Spirit and in oppositionto the Law.

Galatians 5:22-23, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering; patience, kindness, righteousness, The Faith; Meekness; gentleness, humility, temperance; self-control--such things are not against any Law."

Every single one of the is promoted and in the Spirit of Yahweh's Law, after all it was the Spirit of Yahweh that gave His Law, how could they possibly be in oppisition? Now do you undersand why Shaul said?, "such things are not against any Law."

Isayah 59:21, "As for Me, this is My covenant with them, says Yahweh: My Spirit which is upon you, namely My Instructions which I have put in your mouth; they will not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your seed, nor from the mouth of your seed's seed, says Yahweh: from this time and forevermore."

Yahchanan 6:63, "It is the Spirit that agives life; the flesh is useless. The Instructions that I speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."

Mattithyah 12:31, "Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy against men will be forgiven. But blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven to men!"

p_rehbein · Dec 3, 2014

Brother Ken..........you got me again.........sigh.........was typing again when you posted......

Yes, I like that definitive difference............so, a spiritual work is our serving God by doing His will/what He purposed us for.

(maybe I should have started by asking folks if they believe that God saved us for a purpose?............)

Hizikyah · Dec 3, 2014

phil112 said:

I agree because the Covenant ratified in the blood of the Messiah is said to:

Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

"Law" is word #H8451 - torah - torah: direction, instruction, law Original Word: תּוֹרָה Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: torah

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them."

the word Law is: 3551. nomos
nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law
Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: nomos
Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os)
Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law
Definition: usage, custom, law; in NT: of law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; meton: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general.

kennethcadwell · Dec 3, 2014

p_rehbein said:

Yes there are many different ways we can be used by God to serve His will in our life.
The thing I was referring to is the difference between spiritual works ( Which is made by God's moral laws )

We are all called to spread the word, the difference is were you called to be a preacher, teacher, and/or a helper.
We should all help others who are in need, and the way we can help can either be financially, feeding, clothing, housing, or even just being a listening ear when somebody needs to some one to talk to about issues they are having.

I know I kind of get going on the moral law aspect of things, but to me you really can not have one with out the other.
For even our Lord Jesus said if you deny others help when in need, you deny Him.

Hizikyah · Dec 3, 2014

p_rehbein said:

Most important post I have ever made IMO.

2 Timothy 2:20-22, "However, in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore, if a man purges himself of sin, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and fit for the Father's use, and prepared for every righteous work. Also flee evil desires; but follow after righteousness, faith, love, and peace with those who call on Yahweh out of a pure heart."

Matt 25:14, "For the Kingdom of Yahweh will be like a man going on a journey into a far country, who summoned his own servants, and handed his possessions over to them. 15 To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one--to each according to his ability--and immediately went on his journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made with them five more talents. 17 He who had received two did the same, and also gained two more. 18 But he who had received one, went and dug in the earth, and hid his ruler's money. 19 After a long time the ruler of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 Then he who had received five
talents came forward and brought five other talents, saying; Ruler, you handed me five talents. Behold, I have gained five other talents above those. 21 His ruler said to him; Well done, righteous and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your ruler! 22 He also who had received two talents came forward, and said; Ruler, you handed me two talents. Behold, I have gained two other talents above those. 23 His ruler said to him; Well done, righteous and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your ruler! 24 Then he who had received the one talent came forward, and said; Ruler, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the earth. See, you have what belongs to you. 26 His ruler answered, and said to him; You wicked and lazy servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed, 27 So you ought to have lent my money to the exchangers, and at least at my coming I could have received my own with interest! 28 Therefore, take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents-- 29 For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away-- 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

kennethcadwell · Dec 3, 2014

p_rehbein said:

Yeah I was writing again when you posted this as well, and pretty much answered it.
Yes I do believe were called for a purpose, and not to just sit back and let life go handily by.

p_rehbein · Dec 3, 2014

Thank you for this Scripture................

2 Timothy 2:20-22, "However, in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore, if a man purges himself of sin, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and fit for the Father's use, and prepared for every righteous work. Also flee evil desires; but follow after righteousness, faith, love, and peace with those who call on Yahweh out of a pure heart."

I think this is the very answer I have been looking for.............God bless and keep you and yours.......

p_rehbein · Dec 3, 2014

Ok, just so I don't blow this some other time............IF I say that these "works" Paul was speaking of do not "earn" us salvation, rather they are a "witness" or "fruit" of our salvation........and of our faith and belief in God, and of our service to him......

Am I ok there?

p_rehbein · Dec 3, 2014

SNAP! Just looked at the clock...........goodness............good night to all.........and thank all of you for your great responses!

kennethcadwell · Dec 3, 2014

p_rehbein said:

Yes you are correct in saying that, and good night and God bless.

posthuman · Dec 4, 2014

p_rehbein said:

the ESV translation reads like this:

. . . that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.

to my understanding, "meet" means something like 'worthy of'
but has more the sense of 'befitting' or a stronger 'typical of'
i would say, if the gauges at the boiler read 'meet' -- then there isn't cause for alarm.

what Paul preaches is in response to what Christ told him, back in v.18

. . . that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

our sanctification is by faith in Him.
therefore, what we do having this knowledge, this faith, should reflect our position in Him.
we should act in a way that is appropriate for our new life & nature in Christ, as new creations. doing otherwise is unhealthy! -- it's foolish. "act as wise, not as unwise" as an apostle might say ..

Paul's appeal to Agrippa is on the basis that he is preaching what should be known by the law and the prophets (see vv. 22 & 27), the same thing the sanhedrin should know -- so he phrases the gospel this way to the king as it's presented here in this part of the record.

p_rehbein said:

He made it; it's a good night

and happy post's birthday - reading this thread and typing this response was the last thing i officially did for my birthday here in my time zone (keeping gentile time, lol)

crossnote · Dec 4, 2014

p_rehbein said:

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
(if it hasn't already been mentioned)
nevermind, it has.. post #11. That makes two ...a majority. hehe

ChristIsGod · Dec 4, 2014

Was thinking again earlier of why the Apostles had to write these letters to the Churches.

Why the Epistles were needed to be sent to the Churches was to correct the going away from N.T. Truth.

From Center, the individuals in the church can go in one direction away from center or the other ...

Lawless<-easy believism<-faith w/o obedience<- The Whole N.T. Way ->doing good deeds->legalism->O.T.Law

The Authors of the Epistles had to deal with both sides of the Middle/the correct way = The Whole of the N.T. Way.
If Jesus 'is' The Word of God then every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God was given to us that we should know and is contained in our New Testaments since the Coming of The Word of God made flesh.

In each direction away from Middle - is away from the Biblical Way for our Salvation - the whole New Testament - that only 1/2 inch sized book.

1 Corinthians 5,6,10 - one example of faith without obedience, easy believism and lawlessness.

In the other direction:

Other religions that claim to be 'Christian' depend soley on good deeds to merit favor with God and add things outside of The Word.

Legalism is the same as what the Rabbis/Priests/Scribes did to the O.T. Laws by adding to them requirements that were not given by God as some have added laws to the N.T. that aren't actual commands of Christ, ie., literal foot washing, etc..

O.T. law contained 613 laws. Those that demanded some of those laws on the Gentiles.

The Whole of The New Testament Way has "works - obedience to both The Word, which Christ called "keeping My Word" and following the leading of the Holy Spirit" as not only the fruit of salvation but also that which we will be judged by according to Jesus' parables and the rest of His Word.

These "works" are not just our purpose or calling in our own Christian life. If you say "earn" salvation you can make the Word of God sound contradictory. But if you say that The Word of God requires obedience - which are also works that are considered as obedience to His Word or Spirit, then you're seeing more clearly, that these works are not just our "personal calling or purpose" in this life but a requirement for all of His Saints that they'll be judged by in the end -- Matthew 13, 25, Rev 2,3,20 etc. etc. etc. of the Whole of His Word in the New Testament ... He said that His Word will never come to an end.

Yes, they, as in obedience-works are a "witness" or "fruit" as you said, p_rehbein, but they are also what we'll be judged by in the end. If some would like to dirty obedience to Him and say that that is "earning" our salvation - then they haven't read His Word in it's entirety or have changed His Word to say what they want.

It really is easy to just type in "works" into any New Testament Search Engine and that would answer anybody that can read.

Good Thursday to you & all.

posthuman · Dec 4, 2014

Hizikyah said:

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
(James 4:17)

and who puts in us what is good !

Teach me to do your will, for you are my God!
Let your good Spirit lead me on level ground!
(Psalm 143:10)

Jason0047 · Dec 4, 2014

p_rehbein said:

To get a general feel of what is happening in Acts 26. Read this lengthy but good article here:

Paul before Agrippa sermon, Paul before Agrippa sermon by Steven Skinner, Acts - SermonCentral.com

To get the heart of "and do works meet for repentance" within Acts 26, check out this article here:

Acts 26:19

Atwood · Dec 4, 2014

p_rehbein said:

Acts, Chapter 26:

18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

19
Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20
But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Appreciate any thoughts/insights

If the shew fits, wear it.

Jason0047 · Dec 4, 2014

p_rehbein said:

We are saved by God's grace and not by works. But true saving faith will produce work as a result. True repentance will bring forth works worthy of that repentance if it is a real and genuine faith in Christ. I believe there are many who did not repent and or truly felt sorry for their sin and or are still abiding in unrepentant sin when they came to Jesus. This is not saving faith. They don't have the natural fruit of the Spirit of works meet for repentance. For good fruit will naturally flow from a believer's life because they are changed and God lives within them. Can a believer fight against God and decide one day to not do things for the Lord? Sure they can. But then they would not be walking after the Spirit anymore. They would be walking after the flesh instead. For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:1). For when one walks after the Spirit, natural fruit of the Spirit will be evident in one's life (i.e. works meet for repentance). It's not that works save you. God does the work in you. God is the one who saves us both in Justification and in Sanctifcation. So we can't take credit for anything; And if we do mess up, we have God's grace to fall back upon (Not so that we might abuse that grace, but so that we can grow stronger in the Lord and what He wants to do thru us and our lives).

Jason0047 · Dec 4, 2014

King Agrippa said he almost was persuaded to be a Christian by Paul. See, Agrippa was almost convinced of the gospel. How many today are not convinced of the gospel? You know those who live an almost Christian like existence? You remember, for you will know them by their fruits. They have a head acknowledge of Christ but they do not have a heart acknowledgment of Christ because they never truly broke before Him in tears at any point with their life. Sure they might have said a prayer of repentance. But did they ever truly let it hit their heart? Sure they might have felt sorry once for their sin, but have they slipped right back into the ways of the world and their old bad behavior? Does one have a Godly sorrow or worldly sorrow? Do you genuinely desire to love God and all other people? For if one has not truly surrendered to God, there is no conversion. No spiritual re-birth. Therefore, there is no works (fruit) meet for repentance (That naturally comes forth from a true saving faith in Jesus Christ); And it all begins with giving our hearts and not just our heads (i.e. our intelects) to Jesus. This is why James said faith without works is dead. The folks he was talking to were not loving in their actions. This was a testament to the fact that they were not changed or that they walked away from Christ after first having repented.

SolidGround · Dec 4, 2014

p_rehbein said:

The "works" being referred to are not just simply abstaining from the repented sin, but going out and doing works.
Abstaining from sin is not the works of this passage. Active works, like charity, spreading the Gospel, and serving; these are the works worthy of repentance.
Repentance is turning from sin, but also turning TO God. We have a set amount of hours in the day. Repentance is taking that time that we used to use on ourselves, and using it for God.

Abstaining from sin is never considered to be "a work" in a Biblical context. It takes work, but is not considered a "work" itself.
The "worthy of repentance" is dealing with the replacement of evil for good, rather than just exterminating the evil.

Confusing Scripture From the Apostle Paul

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