Confusing Scripture From the Apostle Paul

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SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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#41
Was thinking again earlier of why the Apostles had to write these letters to the Churches.

Why the Epistles were needed to be sent to the Churches was to correct the going away from N.T. Truth.

From Center, the individuals in the church can go in one direction away from center or the other ...

Lawless<-easy believism<-faith w/o obedience<- The Whole N.T. Way ->doing good deeds->legalism->O.T.Law



The Authors of the Epistles had to deal with both sides of the Middle/the correct way = The Whole of the N.T. Way
When I've read that, this came into my mind:

Deuteronomy 5:32 Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.
 

Dan58

Senior Member
Nov 13, 2013
1,991
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#42
Ok, just so I don't blow this some other time............IF I say that these "works" Paul was speaking of do not "earn" us salvation, rather they are a "witness" or "fruit" of our salvation........and of our faith and belief in God, and of our service to him......
We are saved by our faith in Christ (grace), but we are judged by our works. "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16). Salvation comes by believing and repenting, but we are each rewarded according to our good works. We reap what we sow (Galatians 6:7) and what we bind on earth shall be bound in heaven (Matthew 18:18). "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" (Revelation 22:12). jmo
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#43
King Agrippa said he almost was persuaded to be a Christian by Paul. See, Agrippa was almost convinced of the gospel. How many today are not convinced of the gospel? You know those who live an almost Christian like existence? You remember, for you will know them by their fruits. They have a head acknowledge of Christ but they do not have a heart acknowledgment of Christ because they never truly broke before Him in tears at any point with their life. Sure they might have said a prayer of repentance. But did they ever truly let it hit their heart? Sure they might have felt sorry once for their sin, but have they slipped right back into the ways of the world and their old bad behavior? Does one have a Godly sorrow or worldly sorrow? Do you genuinely desire to love God and all other people? For if one has not truly surrendered to God, there is no conversion. No spiritual re-birth. Therefore, there is no works (fruit) meet for repentance (That naturally comes forth from a true saving faith in Jesus Christ); And it all begins with giving our hearts and not just our heads (i.e. our intelects) to Jesus. This is why James said faith without works is dead. The folks he was talking to were not loving in their actions. This was a testament to the fact that they were not changed or that they walked away from Christ after first having repented.
I believe James was trying to get certain believers who claimed to believe in Jesus Christ to repent and get their hearts right with Christ. They had a head acknowledgment of Christ, but not a heart acknowledgment of Christ. This is the overall feeling I get from James. For James says to those he is writing to that they should not have respect of persons and to despise the poor in the beginning part of James chapter 2. A person who is born again spiritually or converted and has Christ living within them would never do such a thing unless they have made a series of decisions that led them down a path of darkness away from Christ. But this is why I believe James says, "Faith without works is dead." (James 2:17). He is trying to get them to not just go out and do a bunch of works and be justified by the Law. He is trying to get them to repent and accept Christ (either for the first time or for the second time). For when they repent for real, they will be converted and naturally bring forth fruits (And realize that true faith indeed is dead if does not have works). But they do not the works. God does the works in them after they repent.
 
C

ChristIsGod

Guest
#44
Legalism?

This is just a small study on our part in our Relationship with the God of Glory that I was doing before coming online today and maybe if you don't mind, I could share it here. Our time and effort in understanding His Word is the time we spend with Him on earth that will reflect upon our time in eternity, so what better investment can be made for our "retirement"?
To 'labor' in the Word is to Rest in Him ~ in Spirit and in Truth. Our Love for Him is only reflected in our active Love and interest in The Word of God.

I don't like using my own words, as HE is The Word of God and we only know and love Him when we want to know and love His Word.
His Word should take the place of our own thoughts - "taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ" __ "Let this mind be in your which was also in Christ Jesus...". To be "filled with The Word of God" is to be "filled with Christ and God".

If we fill ourselves with just His Word - we are filling ourselves with The Mind of Christ - living on The Bread of Life, The Word of Life ~ with Christ, Who is The Only Word of God. When we love His Word more than we love our own words, we'll study to show ourselves approved, a laborer, not made ashamed but rightly dividing 'the word of truth'.
We either Love The Word of God that is written from The Word of God made flesh or we have "a different Jesus" and a "different Gospel".

No time to add colors or font sizes to make this easier to read nor to separate the verses from each book -- have to just slap this on here, as is ...

Obedience = G5218 ὑπακοή hupakoē From G5219; attentive hearkening, that is, (by implication) compliance or submission: - obedience, (make) obedient, obey (-ing).

Rom_6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom_16:19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
Rom_16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
1Co_14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
2Co_7:15 And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.
2Co_10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Co_10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
Phm_1:21 Having confidence in thy obedience I wrote unto thee, knowing that thou wilt also do more than I say.
Heb_5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
1Pe_1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Obey = G5219 ὑπακούω hupakouō From G5259 and G191; to hear under (as a subordinate), that is, to listen attentively; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority: - hearken, be obedient to, obey.

Act_5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Act_7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
Rom_2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom_6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom_6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Gal_3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal_5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
Eph_6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Col_3:20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.
Col_3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
2Th_1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th_3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
Tit_3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
Heb_5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Heb_13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Jas_3:3 Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
1Pe_3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
1Pe_4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Works = G2041 ἔργον ergon From ἔργω ergō (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.

Titus :
Tit_1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Tit_2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Tit_2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Tit_3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit_3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Tit_3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

James:
Jas_2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas_2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas_2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas_2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas_2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas_2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas_2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Jas_3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

Revelation:
Rev_2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Rev_2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev_2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev_2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Rev_2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
Rev_2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev_2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev_3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev_3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev_3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev_3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev_14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Command - G1781 ἐντέλλομαι entellomai From G1722 and the base of G5056; to enjoin: - (give) charge, (give) command(-ments), injoin.

Joh_15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh_15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
1Co_7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
2Th_3:4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.
2Th_3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
2Th_3:12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
1Ti_4:11 These things command and teach.
1Co_7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
2Th_3:4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.
2Th_3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
2Th_3:12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
1Ti_4:11 These things command and teach.

Commandments - G1785 ἐντολή entolē From G1781; injunction, that is, an authoritative prescription: - commandment, precept.

Mat_5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat_19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat_22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Mar_10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Mar_12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Luk_1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Luk_18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
Joh_14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh_14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Act_1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
1Co_7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
1Co_14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1Th_4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
1Jn_2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn_2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn_3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn_3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1Jn_5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn_5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jn_1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Rev_12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Obedience to His Word ~

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.


Obedience to His Spirit ~

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


Etc. ~ Our part in this "relationship" with The True and Living God.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#45
In Acts 26, Agrippa had said he was "almost" persuaded to be a Christian. Paul essentially said back to him that he wished he (and the others around him who were also listening to him) would be an "almost" like as he is. For Paul told Agrippa about how he persecuted the church until the Lord spoke to him --- saving Paul from his own stubbornness. For Paul (Saul) was heading down a path of destruction (kicking like an ox against the Lord's proddings to come to Him). Paul was also an "almost", but his "almost" was different than the "almost" of Agrippa, though. For it appeared Agrippa did not want to let go of his sinful lifestyle in favor of being a Christian. So Agrippa's "almost" was one step or inch closer to the edge of falling into the abyss of "Condemnation." Whereas Paul was working for a time in what he felt was God's plan. So Paul (Saul)'s "almost" was one step or inch closer to the stairway to the life in God's Kingdom (Whereby Jesus talked to Him).

So if you are reading this now and you never truly let Christ into your heart (and not just your head) (whereby you will have a changed life), or if you have been thinking about accepting Christ (but you have just been on the fence), please, I encourage you now, please be like an "almost" like Paul right now and have courage in taking that step towards the stairway to Heaven, who is Jesus Christ; And please do not be an "almost" like Agrippa and be one step closer to the edge of continuing to hold onto a life of sin (Which brings Condemnation). Come to the Lord, my friend. Cast your worries, and burdens on Him. Take that step now and accept Jesus Christ. Don't let him continue to be an "almost" for you.
 
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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#46
Thanks everyone..................there was only one comment I didn't understand...........but, hey, that's pretty good........ :)
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#47
Thanks everyone..................there was only one comment I didn't understand...........but, hey, that's pretty good........ :)
If it was one of my posts, I would be happy to elaborate or explain it, my friend (If you are interested).
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,104
6,480
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#48
Ok, another incident in Scripture from the Book of Acts I would like some thoughts on.............in preceding Chapters (21, or, 22, or 23 - 24, or maybe 25) have to look them up again..........Paul was warned by the Holy Spirit...........twice through people, and once in a vision (I believe) NOT TO GO TO JERUSALEM...................Paul even stated that he knew exactly what would happen, and what he would suffer if he went, and he decided he would go anyway. I do not see how we can say that Paul DID NOT ignore the warnings of the Holy Spirit when he went to Jerusalem...........seems pretty clear to me.

So, a couple of questions:

1) Was it God's will that Paul ignore the warnings of the Holy Spirit and go to Jerusalem?

2) If Paul had obeyed the Holy Spirit's warning, and continued his ministry in other cities, how much different would Scriptures be today? In other words...........would Paul have accomplished even greater works of ministry than he did?

I know this will rely on some speculation.............but I'm just looking for thoughts about this............

I find it interesting that Paul would choose to ignore the warnings of the Holy Spirit given how much he loved God/Jesus.....
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#49
Acts 26:20

One cannot be saved unless he repents and he has not repented if he has no works. The context makes works a necessary, integral part of being saved and the first works of repentance is to do what Christ said to do be saved in not only repenting but confessing, Mt 10:32,33 and being baptized, Mk 16:16. Has one repented and turned to God if he had not done what Christ said to do? No.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,104
6,480
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#50
Gave wrong Chapters............found them though:

Acts 19:

21
After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome.

Acts 20:

22

And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:

23
Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

24
But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.


Acts 21:
4
After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome.

11
And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

12
And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem.

13
Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.

14
And when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, The will of the Lord be done.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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#51
Ok, another incident in Scripture from the Book of Acts I would like some thoughts on.............in preceding Chapters (21, or, 22, or 23 - 24, or maybe 25) have to look them up again..........Paul was warned by the Holy Spirit...........twice through people, and once in a vision (I believe) NOT TO GO TO JERUSALEM...................Paul even stated that he knew exactly what would happen, and what he would suffer if he went, and he decided he would go anyway. I do not see how we can say that Paul DID NOT ignore the warnings of the Holy Spirit when he went to Jerusalem...........seems pretty clear to me.

So, a couple of questions:

1) Was it God's will that Paul ignore the warnings of the Holy Spirit and go to Jerusalem?
No . . . 21:4 And finding disciples [there], we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit that he should not go up to Jerusalem. Why would God tell him to NOT go and yet be His will for Paul to go?
2) If Paul had obeyed the Holy Spirit's warning, and continued his ministry in other cities, how much different would Scriptures be today? In other words...........would Paul have accomplished even greater works of ministry than he did?

I know this will rely on some speculation.............but I'm just looking for thoughts about this............

I find it interesting that Paul would choose to ignore the warnings of the Holy Spirit given how much he loved God/Jesus.....
Maybe. It could be possible.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
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#52
in re: Paul going to Jerusalem

it reads to me as though the Spirit wasn't saying 'don't go to Jerusalem' as much as it was revealing to all that Paul would be arrested & imprisoned in Jerusalem. i think it was out of love of all around him that they urged him not to go, not unlike how the disciples urged Christ not to go to Jerusalem when He told them how He would be handed over and killed when He went.

Paul knew that He was going to suffer, and be bound, and imprisoned, and he also knew that this would mean he would testify of the gospel before kings. like Paul said, he was ready to go through all this for Christ's sake, even to be killed.
i think he had known this for a long time -- back at his conversion, Jesus told him that he would be told what he must do - Acts 9:6 - and the Lord sent Ananias to him, telling Ananias "
I will show him how much he must suffer for my name." (Acts 9:16)

so i don't believe Paul was 'disobeying' the Holy Spirit. the Spirit had forbade him to go into Asia, remember, and he did not go. now the Spirit was not forbidding him to go to Jerusalem, but revealing to both him (though he may have known for a long time already) and to everyone else around Paul the trial he would face when he went there.
the believers weren't forbidding Paul to go, by the Spirit, but warning him of what he had to face. Paul knowing this, continued on - also Spirit led, i believe, and with full knowledge of the cross he was to bear (which he bore with joy, according to the prison epistles!) -- those who loved Paul urged him not to go from their love for him, not as a command of the Spirit - what the Spirit told them was how that Paul would suffer there, not that Paul must not go at all.
 
S

sveinen

Guest
#53
Acts, Chapter 26:

18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

19
Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20
But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.


Appreciate any thoughts/insights
we thinks you're supposed to change you signature.
but some bible of love, Be Blessed ;)
 
C

ChristIsGod

Guest
#54
Sharing the message with you - the same message that I got for others :( - "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to posthuman again."
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
#55
in re: Paul going to Jerusalem

it reads to me as though the Spirit wasn't saying 'don't go to Jerusalem' as much as it was revealing to all that Paul would be arrested & imprisoned in Jerusalem. i think it was out of love of all around him that they urged him not to go, not unlike how the disciples urged Christ not to go to Jerusalem when He told them how He would be handed over and killed when He went.

Paul knew that He was going to suffer, and be bound, and imprisoned, and he also knew that this would mean he would testify of the gospel before kings. like Paul said, he was ready to go through all this for Christ's sake, even to be killed.
i think he had known this for a long time -- back at his conversion, Jesus told him that he would be told what he must do - Acts 9:6 - and the Lord sent Ananias to him, telling Ananias "
I will show him how much he must suffer for my name." (Acts 9:16)

so i don't believe Paul was 'disobeying' the Holy Spirit. the Spirit had forbade him to go into Asia, remember, and he did not go. now the Spirit was not forbidding him to go to Jerusalem, but revealing to both him (though he may have known for a long time already) and to everyone else around Paul the trial he would face when he went there.
the believers weren't forbidding Paul to go, by the Spirit, but warning him of what he had to face. Paul knowing this, continued on - also Spirit led, i believe, and with full knowledge of the cross he was to bear (which he bore with joy, according to the prison epistles!) -- those who loved Paul urged him not to go from their love for him, not as a command of the Spirit - what the Spirit told them was how that Paul would suffer there, not that Paul must not go at all.
First - Paul was bound in the spirit - small "s" - his spirit. He really wanted to go to Jerusalem but something was "restraining" him. You know how you want to do something but your iffy about doing it - something is making you question "if" you should do it -

Acts 20:22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: Save [only] that the Holy Spirit witnessing in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me [if I go to Jerusalem] . . . . He first says he did not know what would befall him but then goes on to say that the Holy Spirit had been witnessing saying that bonds and afflictions would be waiting - Then in v21 he basically says - I don't care what befalls me - I would rather testify of the gospel - which sounds very sincere - But what good was it in going to Jerusalem when the Spirit had already told him not to go and what would happen if he did?

Then in 21:4 He landed at Tyre - where he was with the disciples there for 7 days - they through the Spirit told him he should NOT go up to Jerusalem. Then Agabus, a prophet, prophesies to him that he would be bound and delivered unto the Gentiles . . when the others heard it - all of them besought him not to go up to Jerusalem. Paul, in all sincerity - Oh, I am ready to be not bound only but to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus. . . nothing was going to persuade him to NOT go. So everyone ceased trying to persuade him - And when he [Paul] would not be persuaded, we ceased [stopped] saying the will of the Lord be done.

Here are 3 records where Paul was told NOT to go - 1) the Holy Spirit was witnessing in every city what would befall him if he should go; 2) the disciples at Tyre tried to persuade him through the Spirit while he was there 7 days NOT TO GO; 3) Agabus prophesied to him what would happen if he went - Paul went any way and he DID get in trouble and he DID almost lose his life there. I don't read anywhere where during that period he won anyone for the Lord Jesus Christ. The nearest Paul came to winning anybody for the Lord in those years was an "almost" - King Agrippa -
Acts 26:28 . . . Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

God had done everything to keep His man out of a big dilemma but Paul was determined to go . . . I love how this record lets me see how human Paul was - a man who had frailties just like I do - God can try to tell me things also but if I don't listen - he won't force me and I have to accept whatever happens.
 
C

ChristIsGod

Guest
#56
First - Paul was bound in the spirit - small "s" - his spirit. He really wanted to go to Jerusalem but something was "restraining" him. You know how you want to do something but your iffy about doing it - something is making you question "if" you should do it -

Acts 20:22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: Save [only] that the Holy Spirit witnessing in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me [if I go to Jerusalem] . . . . He first says he did not know what would befall him but then goes on to say that the Holy Spirit had been witnessing saying that bonds and afflictions would be waiting - Then in v21 he basically says - I don't care what befalls me - I would rather testify of the gospel - which sounds very sincere - But what good was it in going to Jerusalem when the Spirit had already told him not to go and what would happen if he did?

Then in 21:4 He landed at Tyre - where he was with the disciples there for 7 days - they through the Spirit told him he should NOT go up to Jerusalem. Then Agabus, a prophet, prophesies to him that he would be bound and delivered unto the Gentiles . . when the others heard it - all of them besought him not to go up to Jerusalem. Paul, in all sincerity - Oh, I am ready to be not bound only but to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus. . . nothing was going to persuade him to NOT go. So everyone ceased trying to persuade him - And when he [Paul] would not be persuaded, we ceased [stopped] saying the will of the Lord be done.

Here are 3 records where Paul was told NOT to go - 1) the Holy Spirit was witnessing in every city what would befall him if he should go; 2) the disciples at Tyre tried to persuade him through the Spirit while he was there 7 days NOT TO GO; 3) Agabus prophesied to him what would happen if he went - Paul went any way and he DID get in trouble and he DID almost lose his life there. I don't read anywhere where during that period he won anyone for the Lord Jesus Christ. The nearest Paul came to winning anybody for the Lord in those years was an "almost" - King Agrippa -
Acts 26:28 . . . Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

God had done everything to keep His man out of a big dilemma but Paul was determined to go . . . I love how this record lets me see how human Paul was - a man who had frailties just like I do - God can try to tell me things also but if I don't listen - he won't force me and I have to accept whatever happens.
Sis, you're getting something from the KJV [which I use as well] and getting hung up on the word "bound by the spirit".

God speaks to us through our spirit... where He indwells - Spirit in spirit and that word "bound" means that he means, he has a "sense of duty" to obey the Spirit. Doesn't matter if it's capitalized or not -- in other versions it does capitalize Spirit because it's the same Greek word for either ours or His Spirit.

There is no record at all - whatsoever, anywhere in Scriptures where Paul ever disobeyed The Spirit's commands or leading. He had to go - he was 'bound' to go to Jerusalem by The Spirit and that's confirmed here Act 23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.
"A righteous man's steps are ordered of The Lord" and Paul was right on target with every step of obedience that he took -- he lived a perfect life and knew he was headed to die in Rome and his last book written was 2Timothy from prison, waiting to die.

Please don't ever think that Paul was out of God's will ever - once he was saved. That would be making his Scriptures and his walk questionable.

Thank you.
 
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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,104
6,480
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#58
Yes, once Paul went to Jerusalem, God was with him, did not forsake him, and used him. But that is what God does is it not? Make something good out of something bad?

I think of my own life, when at times I decided to do something, and that still, soft voice spoke to me and said......."Hey, this isn't a good idea, things will not work like you think they will" ......... or such...........and I do it anyway, and sure enough, things do not work out.............BUT God does not forsake me, He stands by me...........but I usually suffer in some way or other, be it physical or emotional or spiritual.............

I liken these experiences of mine to these passages of Scripture concerning Paul................
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#59
I kind of just skimmed to the end, but let me put another two scriptures out there that show that Lord Jesus and Paul in his epistle to Titus both say you can deny the Lord your God by your works.

Matthew 25:44-45
“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’



Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate
 
C

ChristIsGod

Guest
#60
p_rehbein

Would to God that any of us could compare ourselves to obedient, spirit-led, Paul.

He be da man, now! Don't be raggin' on da man. He's my hero of the faith!

His last words to all, from Rome: "For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.....
At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge. Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.
And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to Whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen."
 
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