Confusing Scripture From the Apostle Paul

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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,097
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#61
You are completely misunderstanding my comments.............I am not "ragging on" the Apostle Paul...............While Jesus is my "hero," Paul is my favorite of the Apostles..............well, ok, close tie between him and John.

In fact, these scriptures ENDEAR him to me even more, for I see in him the very same imperfections I see in myself and others.

Try to see things in a positive light...........I know that's hard sometimes here on CC...........but try anyway........... :)
 
Feb 21, 2012
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#62
Sis, you're getting something from the KJV [which I use as well] and getting hung up on the word "bound by the spirit".

God speaks to us through our spirit... where He indwells - Spirit in spirit and that word "bound" means that he means, he has a "sense of duty" to obey the Spirit. Doesn't matter if it's capitalized or not -- in other versions it does capitalize Spirit because it's the same Greek word for either ours or His Spirit.
"spirit" doesn't always mean holy Spirit although the same Greek word is used. In this case, I would say that it is the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated; the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides; the soul. Paul was determined in himself to go to Jerusalem which is shown throughout these scriptures.
There is no record at all - whatsoever, anywhere in Scriptures where Paul ever disobeyed The Spirit's commands or leading. He had to go - he was 'bound' to go to Jerusalem by The Spirit and that's confirmed here Act 23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.
"A righteous man's steps are ordered of The Lord" and Paul was right on target with every step of obedience that he took -- he lived a perfect life and knew he was headed to die in Rome and his last book written was 2Timothy from prison, waiting to die.
Human beings are human beings - And even when they desire to always do right - they don't always do it. The apostle Paul was a man - I don't believe I said he didn't speak of Jesus Christ while he was imprisoned but that no souls were saved so what was the profit in going to Jerusalem?

I think it is error to set up man as being perfect - there was only one perfect man - Jesus Christ. And what about Romans 7 where Paul readily admits that the things he wants to do he doesn't do and the things he does not want to do he does? He fought spiritual battles just as all of us do.

Please don't ever think that Paul was out of God's will ever - once he was saved. That would be making his Scriptures and his walk questionable.

Thank you.
Paul's walk was as any other believer . . . that does not negate the fact that Paul was a wonderful man of God and received by revelation the epistles to the church which I have NEVER questioned.

What I posted is the way that I read that section of scripture - just plainly and simply - by what it says. I wasn't expecting anyone to totally agree with me.

And thank you for your thoughts - God bless you.

 
C

ChristIsGod

Guest
#63
You are completely misunderstanding my comments.............I am not "ragging on" the Apostle Paul...............While Jesus is my "hero," Paul is my favorite of the Apostles..............well, ok, close tie between him and John.

In fact, these scriptures ENDEAR him to me even more, for I see in him the very same imperfections I see in myself and others.

Try to see things in a positive light...........I know that's hard sometimes here on CC...........but try anyway........... :)
I agree with you adding John - as he too is my hero but Paul was also a perfect man. He had no "imperfections" except what those that don't really understand what they're reading think they see.

Now Peter messed up and Paul got on him publically but that's about it for any faults in the Apostles -- and Barnabus argued with Paul but Paul was right in his decision to not take JohnMark with them.

Paul never messed up after his conversion, so you'd have to maybe pick Peter to relate our imperfections with.

God Bless!
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,097
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#64
23
Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

24
But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,703
684
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#65
First - Paul was bound in the spirit - small "s" - his spirit. He really wanted to go to Jerusalem but something was "restraining" him. You know how you want to do something but your iffy about doing it - something is making you question "if" you should do it -

Acts 20:22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: Save [only] that the Holy Spirit witnessing in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me [if I go to Jerusalem] . . . . He first says he did not know what would befall him but then goes on to say that the Holy Spirit had been witnessing saying that bonds and afflictions would be waiting - Then in v21 he basically says - I don't care what befalls me - I would rather testify of the gospel - which sounds very sincere - But what good was it in going to Jerusalem when the Spirit had already told him not to go and what would happen if he did?

Then in 21:4 He landed at Tyre - where he was with the disciples there for 7 days - they through the Spirit told him he should NOT go up to Jerusalem. Then Agabus, a prophet, prophesies to him that he would be bound and delivered unto the Gentiles . . when the others heard it - all of them besought him not to go up to Jerusalem. Paul, in all sincerity - Oh, I am ready to be not bound only but to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus. . . nothing was going to persuade him to NOT go. So everyone ceased trying to persuade him - And when he [Paul] would not be persuaded, we ceased [stopped] saying the will of the Lord be done.

Here are 3 records where Paul was told NOT to go - 1) the Holy Spirit was witnessing in every city what would befall him if he should go; 2) the disciples at Tyre tried to persuade him through the Spirit while he was there 7 days NOT TO GO; 3) Agabus prophesied to him what would happen if he went - Paul went any way and he DID get in trouble and he DID almost lose his life there. I don't read anywhere where during that period he won anyone for the Lord Jesus Christ. The nearest Paul came to winning anybody for the Lord in those years was an "almost" - King Agrippa -
Acts 26:28 . . . Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

God had done everything to keep His man out of a big dilemma but Paul was determined to go . . . I love how this record lets me see how human Paul was - a man who had frailties just like I do - God can try to tell me things also but if I don't listen - he won't force me and I have to accept whatever happens.
Sis, you're getting something from the KJV [which I use as well] and getting hung up on the word "bound by the spirit".

God speaks to us through our spirit... where He indwells - Spirit in spirit and that word "bound" means that he means, he has a "sense of duty" to obey the Spirit. Doesn't matter if it's capitalized or not -- in other versions it does capitalize Spirit because it's the same Greek word for either ours or His Spirit.

There is no record at all - whatsoever, anywhere in Scriptures where Paul ever disobeyed The Spirit's commands or leading. He had to go - he was 'bound' to go to Jerusalem by The Spirit and that's confirmed here Act 23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.
"A righteous man's steps are ordered of The Lord" and Paul was right on target with every step of obedience that he took -- he lived a perfect life and knew he was headed to die in Rome and his last book written was 2Timothy from prison, waiting to die.

Please don't ever think that Paul was out of God's will ever - once he was saved. That would be making his Scriptures and his walk questionable.

Thank you.
Everyone...

I think this is a perfect example of what's been established in the 1st half of this thread by everyone; that just because the Holy Spirit is within a person doesn't mean that person *automatically* obeys. We still must willingly choose to obey God even with the Spirit. Our fruits (works) are not automatic since we still have free will. Faith + Works. Can't have one without the other.

I think it really hits home in this scene with Paul. And it may even settle the other thread from EG ("...dead means dead").


Acts 21:4
4 After looking up the disciples, we stayed there seven days; and they kept telling Paul through the Spirit not to set foot in Jerusalem.

But Paul said "oh I'm not only ready to be bound there but I'm ready to die"...yet...when faced with that very likelihood he evokes his Roman citizenship so that the guards would save him. If he didn't do that he would've died just like (I think he oversaw) Steven's stoning...to the glory of God. I liken this scene to Peter's time of testing with Christ. Peter said to Christ "Oh I would NEVER deny you" but when it came time to walk his talk; to show the fruit of his belief, he unfortunately failed because of fleshy fear. Paul said he was ready to die but when it came time he proved he really wasn't ready.

Stepping back from this scene for a second, I think Paul was more effective to spread the gospel in person than through letters and I don't think God had other things for him yet. When we read some of his letters (prior to his incarceration) we note that he often "hopes" to get to these new converts to strengthen each other. We also read in the early chapters of Acts how he through the Spirit was able to ignite a spiritual fire wherever he went. I truly feel God's plan for Paul was for him to continue traveling to gentile areas spreading the gospel...but after this scene Paul never traveled again (though God still used Paul through his letters).

I think this shows Paul was weak like we all are at times: both in pride and in fear. Yet God is forgiving of our disobedience.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#66
Ok..........the responses are sort of what I was thinking..............the confusing part was "and do works meet for repentance...."

We know that works will not provide us with salvation........that is by the Grace of God.........so, if I understand correctly.....this is saying do works "worthy of" or some such, of repentance...........In other words, we would be doing the work that God purposed us for when He saved us through His Grace? And, if I am still understanding, the "sanctified" or "Church" are purposed for "works meet for repentance?"

Don't want to put words in anyone's mouth.........so I'm just asking........

Works demonstrate an active faith.

Salvation is wrought via the dynamic of grace effecting transformation through active obedience. Hence it is in the reception of the word into the heart which saves the soul.

Salvation is a reference to the changed heart, hence salvation is wrought through transformation, transformation is wrought through repentance and faith. Faith is simply faithfulness or the manifest state of being yielded to God from the heart.

Therefore all Paul is saying in that passage is "change your mind" and "yield to God." Repent is the mind change and faith is the working dynamic of walking in a yielded state to God.

If there are no "deeds worthy of repentance" then there was no real repentance. Paul is simply contending for a real conversion wrought by a real repentance.



This notion of "disconnecting deeds from salvation" is erroneous and is simply a result of the false theology of the Reformation. Salvation is of the dynamic of "grace THROUGH faith." It is not of "grace alone" or "faith alone." Grace and faith WORK TOGETHER and in doing so a result is produced which cannot be obtained independently.

This is why Jesus preached "hear" AND "do."
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,097
6,480
113
#67
This is in no way a "condemnation" of the Apostle Paul.............even he listed his failures/shortcomings more than once in his Epistles............revealing his humanity................another example is revealed in the 15th Chapter.........

Acts, Chapter 15

36
And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the LORD, and see how they do.

37
And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.

38
But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.

39
And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;

40
And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God.

41
And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.


To say that this event was God's will is to say that it was God's will to cause dissention between the Apostles........dunno if I buy into that...........especially since later on Paul reconciled with John Mark and asked that John Mark be sent to him.......

(just saying.................)
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#68
You are completely misunderstanding my comments.............I am not "ragging on" the Apostle Paul...............While Jesus is my "hero," Paul is my favorite of the Apostles..............well, ok, close tie between him and John.

In fact, these scriptures ENDEAR him to me even more, for I see in him the very same imperfections I see in myself and others.

Try to see things in a positive light...........I know that's hard sometimes here on CC...........but try anyway........... :)
I have to say, I actually like James.
He is a no nonsense, won't let you get away with nothing style in his writing. It has a very convicting style in what he tells us that you right in the heart. I know most people don't like James, because he takes and really makes you really look at yourself and if you are walking a proper path to salvation. Or if you are walking a path toward your own condemnation.
If you don't feel convicted after reading James, then I would have to say you really need to take a second glass at you life and if it is proper to God.
 
C

ChristIsGod

Guest
#69
This is in no way a "condemnation" of the Apostle Paul.............even he listed his failures/shortcomings more than once in his Epistles............revealing his humanity................another example is revealed in the 15th Chapter.........

Acts, Chapter 15

36
And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the LORD, and see how they do.

37
And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.

38
But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.

39
And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;

40
And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God.

41
And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.


To say that this event was God's will is to say that it was God's will to cause dissention between the Apostles........dunno if I buy into that...........especially since later on Paul reconciled with John Mark and asked that John Mark be sent to him.......

(just saying.................)
I mentioned this contention before. John Mark witnessed Paul, by the power of God, blind that guy and John Mark left them quickly by boat. The way he left them so suddenly would make it obvious that blinding scared John Mark - so we can believe that Paul wanted him to grow more in The Lord to handle whatever next God would do through Paul.

We can have our own opinions on Paul, but I believe the Spirit was speaking through these people and the people loved Paul so it was something that would upset these people but also to test Paul's willingness in front of them to die --- as he knew he would. He told them that he knew that he was and that was a witness to those disciples and even the prophet.

Paul was not wrong to go - lest Acts 23:11 wouldn't read as it does. God never blesses rebellion or has a double will for His Apostles. Moses was left behind for striking the rock twice --- how much more would the witnesses called Apostles of/for Christ need to be obedient to their own personal calling?

Let's ends this here - as I'm not concerned to change your minds -- I just know what God expected out of His Apostles and didn't let them get away with anything ... as Peter didn't when rebuked by Paul in front of all. Paul was able to confidently say to all - "Follow me as I follow Christ" ... none of us can say that - and God wanted Him to be living such an obedient life to be able to say that - or the Word of God that we call The Scriptures could be weakened in their inerancy. These New Testament books had to be written by someone that did "walk in the spirit and not the flesh" ... the people were right that they got a word that Paul would be in trouble but their humanity was what reacted to that word ... Paul had a command to go and he said as much. I'm not stubborn - it's the fact that 12-13 books of our New Testament was written by the man and he is being judged as walking in the flesh. Defend the Word of God and see what you get.