Christmas

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UMM Jesus WAS NOT BORN in Jerusalem. There was no room in the inn because of this

Luke 2

2 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. [SUP]2 [/SUP](This was the first census that took place while[SUP][a][/SUP] Quirinius was governor of Syria.) [SUP]3[/SUP]And everyone went to their own town to register.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. [SUP]5 [/SUP]He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. [SUP]6 [/SUP]While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, [SUP]7 [/SUP]and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them.

The temple was in Jerusalem NOT Bethlehem.

:confused: Sorry..I didn't say nor was I implying Christ was born in Jerusalem???

And no, Jerusalem isn't Bethlehem...

There was no room in the inn [added: in Bethlehem]. Why? Because for 3 times a year all able-bodied males are supposed to be in Jerusalem for worship: Feast of Unleavened Bread, Feast of Weeks, Feast of Tabernacles....

...What more could've possibly happened here, Sarah? How could have all of this played out? Do we even care to know the full truth of Messiah or would we rather just stick with the Christ of tradition? That's the point I'm making. I just looked up that Bethlehem is 6 miles from Jerusalem. Yes, let's also add what scripture clearly says; that those who were born in specific towns were required to return their hometowns for Roman *vote* for Caesar as Pater Patriae. That's all true. But what I'm sharing with people is what isn't seen on the surface of the scripture that many have probably missed for years and years.

God *guaranteed* that Christ was forced to be born in a Temporary Shelter; a Sukkah/Manger...in perfect fulfillment of scripture. But if we never see any of this is we can never know the truth about "when" The Messiah was actually born of the flesh.

Matthew 13:12-15
12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.

13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

14 In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'you will keep on hearing, but will not understand; you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; for the heart of this people has become dull, with their ears they scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes, otherwise they would see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their heart and return, and i would heal them.
 
such joyless people. I honestly pray none of you had children that you raised in joyless christmas-less homes. If you did, my heart breaks for how miserable their childhood must have been, being the family with the crazy religious nut parents while everyone else enjoyed the holidays.

I'm happy to say that my kids have never had nothing to do with christmas, and I would put their "joyfulness" up there with anyone who celebrates christmas. And I would venture to say that they have even more joy in their life because they aren't deceived by a lie, and instead celebrate Jesus' birth in a more Biblically accurate way.
 
The point that is made in this chapter is that what ever we do, as long as we are doing it for God. Nobody has the right to judge us on them because all of them will cease eventually and are meaningless now when it comes to salvation. Rather you eat ham or don't eat ham does not determine salvation, if you celebrate a holiday or don't celebrate one it does not determine salvation, and so on and so on.............
What determines salvation is your faith and obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ, not in food, holidays, a Sabbath day rather you do it on Saturday, Sunday, or everyday, works of the mosaic laws ( following them ). None of those things but being in Christ matter. If I celebrate Christmas for the birth of our Lord and Savior, I am not following a pagan custom. Same with Easter, if I do for the Lord then it is not paganistic.
Just because we can argue and debate that these are not the exact dates the birth, death and resurrection these fell on, does not make them wrong to do. For the bible clearly states that if you give the day to God, and all you do in it to Him then there is nothing you are doing that is wrong.

This is 100% correct and needs to be repeated.
 
It's really not that hard to see when you look with your heart cleansed with the blood of ha'Mashiah instead of your mind.

The old spoke of His coming, and He did.
It is appointed to man to die once, and after this comes judgement to life or the second death, from which there is no resurrection.
He is the first fruits of judgement to the resurrection and to life.
The new speaks of His coming again, and He will.
i believe in the second ressurection:).
 
Modern day Christmas is a very capitalistic holiday. It's all centered around buying and selling goods and merchandise. The economy of the United States is heavily dependent upon the holiday season. Only a socialist would have something against Christmas, which is basically a celebration of capitalism.
yah! consumers of course:).
 
The point that is made in this chapter is that what ever we do, as long as we are doing it for God. Nobody has the right to judge us on them because all of them will cease eventually and are meaningless now when it comes to salvation. Rather you eat ham or don't eat ham does not determine salvation, if you celebrate a holiday or don't celebrate one it does not determine salvation, and so on and so on.............
What determines salvation is your faith and obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ, not in food, holidays, a Sabbath day rather you do it on Saturday, Sunday, or everyday, works of the mosaic laws ( following them ). None of those things but being in Christ matter. If I celebrate Christmas for the birth of our Lord and Savior, I am not following a pagan custom. Same with Easter, if I do for the Lord then it is not paganistic.
Just because we can argue and debate that these are not the exact dates the birth, death and resurrection these fell on, does not make them wrong to do. For the bible clearly states that if you give the day to God, and all you do in it to Him then there is nothing you are doing that is wrong.
but i really do prefer meat on New Year's eve to give thanks to God for the whole year.. and if ever i don't have any meat to cook? God has my salvation from him, and rejoicingly experiencing this things because we are in a training grounds as an angels of God to perfection..
 
How is it meat to accept pagan practices?

How is it milk to reject pagan practices?

When did partaking in pagan rituals become acceptable?

These practices only have whatever power you give them. It's the worship that goes along with the practice that makes the practice unholy. Remove the worship and you remove the practice's power, or better yet redirect it to the one true living God and make something intended for unholiness Holy.

Think of prayer and fasting. Without the prayer part, you're just starving. It takes the spiritual component to give the physical act meaning and power.

That's what being able to eat meat sacrificed to idols is all about. Under Christ, it's just meat. Nothing more. Even tho it was intended to be evil, it's not, because you're not partaking in the spiritual acts that make it evil.

Same thing with Christmas. If you worship at Santa's feet, it's not for you. But if your Santa kneels at the manger, then God bless you and grant you a magical holiday!
 
Colossians 2:16

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holiday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Exactly

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

What is it that is coming that xmas is a shadow of?

Well, let's see, Christmas reveals the coming of a King. Anyone know about a King Who's about to come in the future? I think it's the same King...
 
These practices only have whatever power you give them. It's the worship that goes along with the practice that makes the practice unholy. Remove the worship and you remove the practice's power, or better yet redirect it to the one true living God and make something intended for unholiness Holy.

Think of prayer and fasting. Without the prayer part, you're just starving. It takes the spiritual component to give the physical act meaning and power.

That's what being able to eat meat sacrificed to idols is all about. Under Christ, it's just meat. Nothing more. Even tho it was intended to be evil, it's not, because you're not partaking in the spiritual acts that make it evil.

Same thing with Christmas. If you worship at Santa's feet, it's not for you. But if your Santa kneels at the manger, then God bless you and grant you a magical holiday!

what spirit allows that?

Acts 15:29 Parallel Verses
New International Version
You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

New Living Translation
You must abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality. If you do this, you will do well. Farewell."

English Standard Version
that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

New American Standard Bible
that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."

King James Bible
That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
 
This thread has really shown two types of people up: those who over react, are under read, and as it would appear, didn't bother to read the original post, or reply to it in a comprehensive, educated manner, and just generalised about the sort of thread they assumed it was, carrying on with immature banter.

Then there's the second group, who has shown how educated they are, have read the post, and considered the points and responded with biblical knowledge and understanding, with scripture and that of the like - i am really grateful for the second group of respondents.

To the first, this is a bible discussion forum, not a place for your immature, ignorant, under read responses, do yourselves a favour and don't bother replying unless you have something constructive to further the discussion with.
 
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I see 2 groups too - those who fall under Hebrews 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

And those who haven't matured this far.
 
what spirit allows that?

Acts 15:29 Parallel Verses
New International Version
You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

New Living Translation
You must abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality. If you do this, you will do well. Farewell."

English Standard Version
that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

New American Standard Bible
that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."

King James Bible
That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Well now it seems we have a Biblical standoff. You quote Acts to abstain from things sacrificed to idols, 1 Cor 8 says it's harmless. Seems we have one of those Biblical contradictions. But then Corinthians goes on with a qualifier - as long as it doesn't cause a weaker, less educated brother to fall. To quote: [SUP]4 [/SUP]So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” [SUP]5 [/SUP]For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), [SUP]6 [/SUP]yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.[SUP]7 [/SUP]But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. Without getting long winded, this says that to those with spiritual maturity can eat, while those who are weak and uninformed may find fault with it. It goes back to the passage about having your spiritual discernment honed thru practice (Hebrews 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.) So the charge to abstain addresses the immature, milk fed Christian who is not discerning and stumbles over such things. Those who are mature, who have learned to discern good from evil may go ahead... unless it causes the weaker, undiscerning person to falter.

So, I'll go back to my original summary, which is to appease you weaker brothers I'll pack the Christmas stuff away. But let me know when you're mature enough to discern spiritual good from evil, so I can get back to worshipping God in a mature discerning way.
 
:confused: Sorry..I didn't say nor was I implying Christ was born in Jerusalem???

And no, Jerusalem isn't Bethlehem...



...What more could've possibly happened here, Sarah? How could have all of this played out? Do we even care to know the full truth of Messiah or would we rather just stick with the Christ of tradition? That's the point I'm making. I just looked up that Bethlehem is 6 miles from Jerusalem. Yes, let's also add what scripture clearly says; that those who were born in specific towns were required to return their hometowns for Roman *vote* for Caesar as Pater Patriae. That's all true. But what I'm sharing with people is what isn't seen on the surface of the scripture that many have probably missed for years and years.

God *guaranteed* that Christ was forced to be born in a Temporary Shelter; a Sukkah/Manger...in perfect fulfillment of scripture. But if we never see any of this is we can never know the truth about "when" The Messiah was actually born of the flesh.

Matthew 13:12-15
12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.

13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

14 In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'you will keep on hearing, but will not understand; you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; for the heart of this people has become dull, with their ears they scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes, otherwise they would see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their heart and return, and i would heal them.

Where does the passage say they were going to Jerusalem for a festival? This is what the text says

Luke 2

2 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. [SUP]2 [/SUP](This was the first census that took place while[SUP][a][/SUP] Quirinius was governor of Syria.) [SUP]3 [/SUP]And everyone went to their own town to register.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. [SUP]5 [/SUP]He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. [SUP]6 [/SUP]While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, [SUP]7 [/SUP]and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them.

So from that passage how do you get that someone who family is from Capernum going to JERUSALEM to register? It's pretty simple HOW many were related to the line of David when David had many wives and Solomon had 300 wives? So you think maybe the reason why they could fine no in the inn was because of the fact that so MANY people were related to the line of David and had to register in BETHLEHEM,with Bethlehem being a SMALL town?


You are trying to ADD something the text that is NOT there. No where from that text can anyone say that it was during one of the three main festivals they were to go up to Jerusalem.

This is WHAT you said


Post # 40

There was no room in the inn. Why? Because for 3 times a year all able-bodied males are supposed to be in Jerusalem for worship: Feast of Unleavened Bread, Feast of Weeks, Feast of Tabernacles. And the timing of the months from Zechariah's service in the temple (feast of Weeks/Pentecost), all the way to Christ's birth (the following year), brings the narrative to the 7th biblical month. The Feast of Tabernacles is in the 7th month.

Where does the text say anything about them going up to Jerusalem for a FEAST? It does not say that at all.
 
Where does the passage say they were going to Jerusalem for a festival? This is what the text says

Luke 2

2 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. [SUP]2 [/SUP](This was the first census that took place while[SUP][a][/SUP] Quirinius was governor of Syria.) [SUP]3 [/SUP]And everyone went to their own town to register.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. [SUP]5 [/SUP]He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. [SUP]6 [/SUP]While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, [SUP]7 [/SUP]and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them.

So from that passage how do you get that someone who family is from Capernum going to JERUSALEM to register? It's pretty simple HOW many were related to the line of David when David had many wives and Solomon had 300 wives?
So you think maybe the reason why they could fine no in the inn was because of the fact that so MANY people were related to the line of David and had to register in BETHLEHEM,with Bethlehem being a SMALL town?

You are trying to ADD something the text that is NOT there. No where from that text can anyone say that it was during one of the three main festivals they were to go up to Jerusalem.

This is WHAT you said


Post # 40

There was no room in the inn. Why? Because for 3 times a year all able-bodied males are supposed to be in Jerusalem for worship: Feast of Unleavened Bread, Feast of Weeks, Feast of Tabernacles. And the timing of the months from Zechariah's service in the temple (feast of Weeks/Pentecost), all the way to Christ's birth (the following year), brings the narrative to the 7th biblical month. The Feast of Tabernacles is in the 7th month.

Where does the text say anything about them going up to Jerusalem for a FEAST? It does not say that at all.

Matthew 13:44
"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.

...we can assume the man bought the field with the purpose of digging deeper for even *more* treasure also.

1 Corinthians 2:10
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

We can stay on the surface of what happened and never experience any depth of the richness of the glory of God...or we can dive into that richness, as God said to "ask, seek, and knock" for more.

We should already know as a fact that God - in his infinite wisdom - *always* gives more than one witness of a truth outside of scripture...especially for an event as important as Christ's birth, but let's see what the scriptures say.

----

Luke 1:5
There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia. And his wife was the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

1. Luke tells the reader Zechariah is the 8th priestly house to serve in the Temple in order for the year; Abijah (pronounced "A-bi-yah"). In 1st Chronicles 24:7-18 we read that this is the order King David established based on the sons of Aaron. 24 sons take turns as High Priest (to lead the service) in the temple throughout the year, every Sabbath. There are roughly 52 weeks in a year so every priest would lead at least twice by the time the year was finished.

2. Every able-bodied male was required to be in Jerusalem for the 3 feasts (Deuteronomy 16:16). These feasts were special requiring *all* 24 priestly houses to be present and serve, so these holidays didn't count toward their normal rotation, even through the priest next in line led temple services (Mishna Vol.2 order moed, tractate Rosh Hashanah).


Luke 1:8-9
And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest’s office before God in the order of his course, According to the custom of the priest’s office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord.

3. Temple service began on the first Sabbath AFTER the 1st day of the 1st month of a new biblical year. The first Sabbath following Aviv 1 was any day between the 2nd and 8th of that month (a 7-day range) at the end of that week. So the following is the starting weeks of the course of priestly service:

Order of Priestly service for all 24 houses (at end of...):
Week 1 = Priest #1
Week 2 = all priests serve (because of Feast of Pesach/Passover; led by Priest #2)
Week 3 = Priest #2
Week 4 = Priest #3
Week 5 = Priest #4
Week 6 = Priest #5
Week 7 = Priest #6
Week 8 = Priest #7
Week 9 = all priests serve (because of Feast of Shavuot/Pentecost; led by Priest #8)
Week 10 = Priest #8
…etc.

So Luke says it was either the 9th or 10th week of priestly service and Zechariah - the 8th priest - was leading the service.


Luke 1:10
10 And the whole multitude of the people were praying outside at the time of incense.
4. Why was the whole multitude there at the temple? Which week must it have been? 9 weeks into service put the narration in the 3rd biblical month. It was Shavuot (Pentecost); the Feast of Weeks.


Luke 1:23
23 And it came to pass, that, as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house.
5. Zechariah had to minister during two weeks (the 9th and 10th weeks) of temple service before returning home during the 11th week of priestly service...


Luke 1:24
24 And after those days his wife Elizabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,
6. (End of) 3rd biblical month + 5 months of Elizabeth hiding = (end of) 8th biblical month; (beginning of) 9th biblical month [or also beginning of Elizabeth's 6th month of pregnancy]


Luke 1:26 [brackets mine]
And in the sixth month [of Elizabeth’s pregnancy (if read in context)] the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto the city of Galilee, named Nazareth…
7. Within the 9th biblical month Christ was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit.


Luke 1:56 [brackets mine]
And Mary abode with [Elizabeth] for three months, and returned to her own house.
8. 6th month of Elizabeth's pregnancy [or 9th biblical month] + 3 months = 9th months [or 12th biblical months finished]. This brings us right back around to the 1st biblical month by the time Elizabeth is ready to deliver John.


Luke 1:57
Now Elizabeth’s full time came that she should be delivered; and she brought forth a son.
9. By this time, Mary is through 3 months of pregnancy...and it's within the 1st biblical month. She has 6 months to go before it's her time to deliver Christ into the world.

(within) 1st biblical month + 6 months to go = (within) 7th biblical month as when Christ is born.


10. Ancillary evidence: It was believe in Hebrew tradition that Elijah would return on Passover (which occurs in the 1st biblical month). To this day, Jews will still place an empty plate at their Passover table. But here in Luke we have John the baptist (who was prophesied to come in the spirit and power of Elijah) being born in the 1st biblical month, they just didn't recognize this was the Elijah fulfillment.

How much do you want to wager that he was born on Passover (14th of 1st month), considering (a) it can take 2 weeks after her term is reached for a woman to deliver her child, and (b) as per God's law a male child is circumcised on their 8th days of life (the day when Luke 1:59-60 says John was named by Zechariah)?

So 6 months from the middle of the 1st month brings us to the middle of the 7th, exactly when the Feast of Tabernacles begins.

---

So it was Feast of Tabernacles when Christ was born. Now imagine all of the people; multitudes upon multitudes of people...Jews...Gentiles...The last and most important Feast of the year for the Jews. Caesar's decree for his vote of all people... Imagine the level of temporary housing needed for *everyone*. Imagine like with any special event (even sports events) the space closer to the event is filled first - and quickly - and then it spreads out from the epicenter in Jerusalem. Time is required for all of this so we can imagine about a week or two before the actual day rooms are filling up everywhere including in nearby towns. Add to this, the requirement of every able-bodied male had to build a sukkah (temporary shelter with their supplies) on the holy day and actually live in it for 7 days, so imagine needing a inn for your stuff while you made your trek to the Holy Land. Imagine just how big - and important - all of this was to all of Israel!

"No room in the inn" in Bethlehem doesn't necessarily mean people were currently "inhabiting" in every single room, but it definitely means all the rooms were "booked". There was a convergence of activity in Israel so much so that Mary was forced to deliver Christ in a temporary housing structure (i.e. a Sukkah), perfectly fulfilling the Feast of Tabernacles. The 15th of the 7th biblical month.

Luke's original readers would have known exactly when Christ was born simply from the text that he gave because they were firmly a part of that Hebrew culture (living through their calendar & traditions each year), the same way you would know which month and day I was talking about if I said "Jim was born on Thanksgiving". But in order to see the full picture; the full truth, we must dig below the surface of what's already shared using all of scripture where it applies.

Proverbs 25:2 [Brackets mine]
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but it is the honor of [Royalty] is to search out a matter.

...if we even care to do so.
 
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Its the same debate every year. Why not just cut and paste what you all said in 2013, 2012, 2011 and so on and so on. It's all the same crud muffin. :D
 
Revelation 10:9-11
So I went to the angel, telling him to give me the little book. And he said to me, "Take it and eat it; it will make your stomach bitter, but in your mouth it will be sweet as honey." 10 I took the little book out of the angel's hand and ate it, and in my mouth it was sweet as honey; and when I had eaten it, my stomach was made bitter. 11 And they said to me, "You must prophesy again [to] many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.

Same thing shared again...and it also makes one sick to the stomach (to the point of "raffing" I imagine)?

Interesting how perfect this passage fits right about now...but why is a message required to be repeated again?
 
There are people here debating this year that weren't part of last year's debate. Last year's debaters have an additional year of learning and experience to incorporate into this year's debate. And lastly, if we debated things only once then called it quits, this site would have folded years ago. If you hate repetition that badly, why are you still here?

just saying, not poking.