What do You think when... A cessationist encounters a continuationist?

[kaylagrl]

Some of that extreme , hyper spirituality is really painful.

Keep jumping into some strange things in these movements - like "grave sucking" and "glory clouds".


The point is God has to be glorified. Not us.


It is Jesus and the message of the cross... It is to do things for the least of our brothers and sisters.
[Matthew 25:40]


It is all for Him.
​

Grave sucking? What in the wide livin world is that ?!

 

[Rachel20]

Thanks you for the replies.


@Desdichado - You put things quite eloquently and I cannot add anything to it. Thanks!


@ Angela - Thank you so much for your response! I love and respect you so much

I have felt the same too, especially when faced with bad experiences from people.

However I am starting to see it, as God using people as vessels and how they're not perfect in themselves. God can use anyone or anything to speak to us, and He still does.

I am wary now too when people say that, God does NOT work this way or all of it is false, because God has used donkeys in the past to speak for Him.

Likewise, the over the top spirituality where people just go for it, for the "feelings" scares me off too.



@Stephen63.

Also, I put the test to see who is being glorified. Is it God or man?



@Breno .. I agree with you on the labels.

@ Dcontroversal - That verse is powerful!


@Kaylagirl - The grave sucking and other such topics are another byproduct of hyper spirituality. I would rather not even get into it

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Romans 8:26 has nothing to do with tongues and cannot be interpreted that way. "Cannot be expressed with words" alone is enough to discredit the modern tongues since they consider what they do a "language" which by definition consists of words.

Look at the context:

Creation groans. We groan. The Spirit groans. This is all in anticipation for Christ's return. Does the earth ever start babbling incoherently? Ever see a rabbit do it? Or a cat? What about you when you groan? What's that like? There is no way this can be used to propagate modern tongues. Scripture interprets scripture. The gift of tongues is without a doubt human languages according to Acts 2. There is no secret language mentioned anywhere in the bible.

1 Corinthians 14:2-4 is Paul correcting the church of Corinth for misunderstanding and misusing gifts. We already know from Acts 2 what the gift of tongues is. It's plainly stated there that it is human languages. Scripture doesn't contradict itself. The bible teaches against self-edification, therefore the tongues being practiced by the church at Corinth were in vain and useless. Paul was telling them to stop.

Paul says this in Romans:

Romans 14:19
19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding [edification].

Why would he contradict himself?

Hope I am not interrupting this thread incorrectly but I just have to respond to 1 Cor. 14:2-4 - and your last sentence - Paul was telling them to stop. I just need clarification: Where is it that Paul is telling them to stop?

14:39,40 - Wherefore brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.

 

[ForthAngel]

The entire context of the chapter is about orderly worship and service. Paul is correcting a church that is out of order.

1 Corinthians 14 English Standard Version (ESV)
Prophecy and Tongues

14 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3 On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.

Let's assume some of the Corinthians had the actual gift of tongues mentioned in Acts 2, that is, spoke an unknown human language that they previously did not know. Paul is saying, even with the actual gift, if no one can understand the new language, it is pointless, because no one else can understand and it only edifies oneself, rather than building up the church as it should. He even says prophecy is way more important than tongues.

6 Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? 7 If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? 8 And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? 9 So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, 11 but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. 12 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.

These verses can't be more clear. He is telling them that using the gift of languages, if no one can understand that language, it is pointless. They were obviously confused about this and misusing the gift. I imagine some really had the actual gift of tongues and there was no order in the church. Everyone speaking on in some new learned language and no one understanding it, completely nullifying its purpose. It is also made clear from these verses that the gift of tongues is not some secret angelic language, but foreign, known human languages.

13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. 16 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. 18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

Still obviously a letter of correction to the church in Corinth. The bible encourages using your mind always (romans 12:2, philippians 4:8, isaiah 26:3, james 1:8, ephesians 4:22-24 and the list goes on and on). The bible is against separating from your mind, but rather encourages renewal of your mind. You can't do this if your mind is detached during worship or teaching. He is telling them here that their use of the gift is fruitless since it is detaching them from intelligible, fruitful worship. He goes on to say he would rather speak five intelligible words than 10,000 unintelligible words in an unknown language.

20 Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature. 21 In the Law it is written, “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” 22 Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. 27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. 30 If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. 33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.

As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

36 Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. 38 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. 39 So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But all things should be done decently and in order.

Let's say it wasn't a letter of correction, but rather a simple letter of instruction. What he says still defies what we see being called tongues today, or prophecy today. The churches of today who are "speaking in tongues" are not following these instructions at all. Paul says do everything for the edification of the body, not the self. We are to die to self and retain a hold on our mind to be renewed. What we see today goes against these teachings entirely. This goes without mentioning what the actual gifts of tongues is according to Acts 2 compared to what we see today.

 

[SarahM777]

I will admit I saw one incredible miracle, when a man was preaching the gospel from a Fijian Hindu background, and he spoke 4 words in an unknown tongue. At the end of the meeting a man came up to the front and he had a napkin, and he asked this man, "Why didn't you say you spoke Armenian?" On the napkin were the 4 words, written in Armenian which said, "Jesus Christ is Lord" Well, of course the speaker did not speak Armenian. But he was an evangelist, and he lead him to the Lord. Then this new Christian made the evangelist speak with his entire family and 27 people were saved! So I would consider that a bona fide miracle.

So why did I move over to a cessationist viewpoint? Well for one thing, the evangelist cheated on his wife and became a gambler and a drunk. He would drink and gamble all week, then visit churches to preach the gospel. Sorry, that didn't work for me. And I saw so many fake gifts, people babblng, claiming healings who were not healed, and I watched a close friend die of cancer, because she moved out of classical Pentecostalism into the heresy of the Word Faith movement.

I got really tired of broken, hurting people pretending that life was perfect, because they had supposedly been "baptised" in the Holy Spirit. Just too many lies, too much fakery, drawing attention to self and generally disturbed and out of order services.

That should lead us to the real question Are the "gifts" of the Spirit the evidence of a true believer or is the evidence that one belongs to Christ something else? Are the fruits of the Spirit in evidence?

Galatians 5

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [SUP]23 [/SUP]gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

And how did Jesus say we would know that one was His disciple?

John 13

[SUP]34 [/SUP]“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. [SUP]35 [/SUP]By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John writes this

1 John 2

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister[SUP][b][/SUP] is still in the darkness. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Anyone who loves their brother and sister[SUP][c][/SUP] lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.

1 John 3

[SUP]16 [/SUP]This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. [SUP]17 [/SUP]If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? [SUP]18 [/SUP]Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

1 John 4

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. [SUP]9 [/SUP]This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. [SUP]10 [/SUP]This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. [SUP]12 [/SUP]No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. [SUP]15 [/SUP]If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. [SUP]17 [/SUP]This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. [SUP]18 [/SUP]There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]We love because he first loved us. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

 

[SarahM777]

Then to take it further WHY DOES PAUL write this right in the middle of speaking about spiritual gifts?

1 Corinthians 13

13 If I speak in the tongues[SUP][a][/SUP] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. [SUP]2 [/SUP]If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. [SUP]3 [/SUP]If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[SUP][b][/SUP] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. [SUP]5 [/SUP]It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. [SUP]7 [/SUP]It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
[SUP]8[/SUP]Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For we know in part and we prophesy in part, [SUP]10 [/SUP]but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. [SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

So why did Paul stick this right in the middle of speaking about spiritual gifts? Is the real evidence that one belongs to Christ is the gifts or is it love?

 

[Stephen63]

If cessationism is true, how do we explain that Satan is destroying his own work (in cessationists minds, Pentecostalism) by all these false signs & teachings (Word of faith movement, holy laughter, gold dust, severe abuse of tongues, abuse of ministry gifts, televangelism, etc.) attempting to destroy Pentecostalism altogether by turning all other denominations against Pentecostalism? It's no secret that those who speak openly against Pentecostalism do so by combining charismatics & Pentecostals together as one, when actually they're not. Even Wikipedia says so.
How do we explain Satan doing this if Pentecostalism is already his? Why is Satan spending so much time & resources (obvious) to promote unbelief in a movement that was supposively sent in the first place to turn the true church away from God?

Luke 11:14-17 (NASB)
Pharisees’ Blasphemy
14 (A)And He was casting out a demon, and it was mute; when the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke; and the crowds were amazed. 15 But some of them said, “He casts out demons (B)by (C)Beelzebul, the ruler of the demons.”16 Others, [a]to test Him, (D)were demanding of Him a [b]sign from heaven.17 (E)But He knew their thoughts and said to them, “[c]Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and a house divided against [d]itself falls.

I believe Satan is doing so to promote unbelief in that which is of God, for he comes to kill, steal, & destroy that which is God's. Could you think of a better way to do it?

Once 1Cor 13: 8 is properly discerned with all of it's context, we're left with nothing else in scripture to prove the gifts ceased. Nothing else agrees in the Bible that these gifts have ever ceased. And what's in the Holy Writ is what counts. What God says in His Word settles it, whether I believe it or not.

 

[Rachel20]

Hi ForthAngel,

I decided to research up a few aspects of this and come back to discussion with you.

I do want to point out that, in eventuality of this discourse, the point is not to convince anyone here, but just stating what we have learnt.

Thank you already for trying to do that.

I remember our discussion had taken a turn on whether tongues was a heavenly language or just human languages.
I have to say that from my study and my experiences, I cannot conclusively say that the gift of tongues is solely human languages.

Perhaps I am wrong, however the reason for my observation is fueled by my real life experience.

I will begin by saying I do know many languages.

I know around 6, [Urdu still in progress]. Also, I am able to understand many dialects and languages including three others, though I am unable to speak it.
(This is partly due to my upbringing as well as my interest)

When I have heard people praying in tongues, it was of no known language to any of us present.
Even in gatherings of people with different backgrounds, I usually know all the languages of the people present.
None of it made sense.

However there were people who were interpreting what was being spoken.


However, I will bring out the verses from Scripture that seem to corroborate what I witnessed --->


1. 1 Corinthians 14:2

For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.


This weakens the argument of a language that is understood by others. Don’t you think God is omniscient and wise enough to know the people gathered around and then provide tongues accordingly?

After all, if a Spanish person was present in the midst of a group, what good would It do for a person to speak in Telugu?



2. 1 Corinthians 13:1

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.



The possibility of speaking in the tongues of angels does exist, as I view it from this verse.


Also about the gift of tongues, I might add that while Paul does ask other believers to refrain from speaking in tongues, unless it was interpreted, he also did mention that he was thankful that he could speak in tongues more than them all [1 Corinthians 14:18-19]


1 Corinthians 14:18

I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;

After all it does edify the believer, but at the end of the day love does not seek its own.


So with regards to this, this what I have deduced.

PS -

Also, I found this verse,

1 Corinthians 14:4

For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.

which was why I brought up the verse from Romans 8 [the Spirit interceding in utterings and groanings that cannot be expressed in words]


However I do not claim myself to be right in everything.

 

[ForthAngel]

Hey Rachel. We have to keep context in mind and not single verses.

1 Corinthians 14 English Standard Version (ESV)
Prophecy and Tongues

14 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3 On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.

6 Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? 7 If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? 8 And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? 9 So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, 11 but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. 12 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.

We can see from context that Paul is clearly speaking of known languages in 1 Corinthians 14. We again have to check scripture against scripture. He is speaking of the miracles of tongues on the day of Pentecost which were again, clearly human languages.

Context again for 1 Corinthians 13:

1 Corinthians 13 New International Version (NIV)

13 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

The entire focus of this passage is not the gifts, but the diminishing of the gifts to refocus on love, faith, and hope. Notice that Paul is using hyperbole to stress his points. If we take verse 1 to mean there is some unknown secret language, we also have to assume that there are some people who know everything there is to know or that people are literally able to move mountains with their minds. We don't see the other two happening because these are exaggerations. The same is true for verse 1. It's an exaggeration to prove a point and nothing more. We again have to use scripture to interpret itself. There is only one gift of tongues mentioned in the bible and we get a clear example in Acts 2 where it was clearly human languages.

As for your last two verses. You have taken them completely out of their context. Read the whole chapter to get an idea of what Paul is talking about. He is speaking of known human languages, the same gift we see in Acts 2. He is also stressing that using this gift for self-edification is contrary to what we are supposed to be doing, not saying it's ok to do it. The rest of the bible is against separating from your mind. That verse about the mind being unfruitful is not an instruction on what to do, but on what not to do.

 

[Rachel20]

Forth Angel,


With regards to the context of 1 Corinthians 14, I do see it as an instruction to not exercise the gift of tongues in a church gathering unless an interpretation was available (through an interpreter)

However, I do not see how it still says the languages has to be "human" languages. That aspect is still not very clear with me.



In context of 1 Corinthians 13, I will agree with you that Paul speaking in hyperbole is a very valid possibility. However I have seen many people literally interpret this chapter to talk about the ceasing of the gifts [sign gifts] of the Spirit.

Since you seemed to be of the school of thought of the ceasing of tongues, I thought I would try to view it from that lens as well. Again, I may be wrong, my apologies if I misunderstood.


For the verse on 1 Corinthians 14:4 and the correlation to Romans 8, it was just me giving an explanation of why I quoted it in an earlier post to you. It has nothing to do with the argument I had presented. I should have made that clear.


Also, about the part about self edification.

This was what I am trying to get at -

* I believe in speaking in tongues was edifying to the believer and not to others. From that I deduce, speaking in tongues was not meant for a public setting but in private. In which case, the justification for it to be solely human language is shaky.


Also, while I do agree at the day of Pentecost, described in Acts 2, people heard the message in their own languages, my reason for wondering whether it could be only a human language was because of real life experiences as well.

Thanks anyway

 

[SeaBass]

So, I just want to know, if you are a cessationist, what do you think when you encounter someone who speaks in tongues or utters a prophecy?



However in case you do believe all this, I am curious what would be the conclusion on seeing someone who displays such outward/sign gifts and believes Jesus is God and for the case of a hypothetical scenario, who doesn't differ from you doctrinally on anything.

Your question is leading in that from what I underlined above in your post, you are assuming people actually can miraculously speak in tongues or utter a prophecy. Since no one can miraculously speak in tongues or utter a prophesy, it is not possible to "encounter someone who speaks in tongues or utters a prophecy". Therefore your question cannot be answered for it's based on assumption.


You also posted "In case, you have never encountered something like this [people talking in "heavenly languages" and healings happening] then please refrain from posting in this thread too."

Again, it is NOT POSSIBLE to "encounter something like this" because it does not happen. The way you have worded your post, anyone that replies to it must assume people can actually miraculously speak in tongues or utter a prophecy.

In other words, you have made it impossible for "cessationists" to reply for you force them into a position where they must assume they have "encountered someone speaking in tongues or utter a prophecy".

 

[ForthAngel]

Forth Angel,


With regards to the context of 1 Corinthians 14, I do see it as an instruction to not exercise the gift of tongues in a church gathering unless an interpretation was available (through an interpreter)

However, I do not see how it still says the languages has to be "human" languages. That aspect is still not very clear with me.



In context of 1 Corinthians 13, I will agree with you that Paul speaking in hyperbole is a very valid possibility. However I have seen many people literally interpret this chapter to talk about the ceasing of the gifts [sign gifts] of the Spirit.

Since you seemed to be of the school of thought of the ceasing of tongues, I thought I would try to view it from that lens as well. Again, I may be wrong, my apologies if I misunderstood.


For the verse on 1 Corinthians 14:4 and the correlation to Romans 8, it was just me giving an explanation of why I quoted it in an earlier post to you. It has nothing to do with the argument I had presented. I should have made that clear.


Also, about the part about self edification.

This was what I am trying to get at -

* I believe in speaking in tongues was edifying to the believer and not to others. From that I deduce, speaking in tongues was not meant for a public setting but in private. In which case, the justification for it to be solely human language is shaky.


Also, while I do agree at the day of Pentecost, described in Acts 2, people heard the message in their own languages, my reason for wondering whether it could be only a human language was because of real life experiences as well.

Thanks anyway

It all still goes back to context. The bible speaks of only one gift of tongues and it's not for oneself, but for others to hear, and it is languages. It was actually a fulfilled prophecy as a sign of judgment to unbelieving Jews. That can't be disputed from a reading of Acts 2. I understand if someone had this gift, that using the new language alone would be self-edifying, and possibly not a bad thing. But Paul insists that it serves no purpose, even for self-edification, if the person can't even understand themselves what they are saying. He therefore urges them to pray that they to can interpret their own gift.

I do believe 1 Corinthians 13 speaks of the ceasing of the gifts as well. What use would faith and hope be if it was referring to Christ's return? Our faith and hope would have come to it's conclusion as we have long awaited in faith and hope for that day.

We also have to realize that what happened on the day of Pentecost was a miracle by definition. It defied nature. Someone was speaking one language and others heard it in their native language. Or someone miraculously learned a new language they had never before known. This is a miracle by definition, as were all the sign gifts. The gift was used to "proclaim the wonderful works of God" to other people. Can you really compare the incoherent babbling of today to this?

You mentioned having hindus in prayer meetings. From the research I've done, this babbling tongues is not inherent to christianity alone, but is practiced in many other world religions. This automatically should be a cause for concern when comparing this form of tongues to the gift mentioned in Acts. If you can't understand what you are saying, how do you even know it's from God? If no one else can understand it, how can they agree with it?

 

[Rachel20]

It all still goes back to context. The bible speaks of only one gift of tongues and it's not for oneself, but for others to hear, and it is languages. It was actually a fulfilled prophecy as a sign of judgment to unbelieving Jews. That can't be disputed from a reading of Acts 2. I understand if someone had this gift, that using the new language alone would be self-edifying, and possibly not a bad thing. But Paul insists that it serves no purpose, even for self-edification, if the person can't even understand themselves what they are saying. He therefore urges them to pray that they to can interpret their own gift.

As I read it, to me, it seemed that the self edification would be due to praying with the help of the Spirit [interceding for us in groans and uttering mysteries], regardless of interpretation which was a separate gift.

Also, I do have a question, when you mention the fulfilled prophecy of judgement to unbelieving Jews, are you referring to the destruction of the temple in AD 70?

I do believe 1 Corinthians 13 speaks of the ceasing of the gifts as well. What use would faith and hope be if it was referring to Christ's return? Our faith and hope would have come to it's conclusion as we have long awaited in faith and hope for that day.

Fair enough, however the ceasing of the gifts was tied to that of the coming of the perfect. In which case, our views on eschatology would come up if you did believe that the gift had ceased.

We also have to realize that what happened on the day of Pentecost was a miracle by definition. It defied nature. Someone was speaking one language and others heard it in their native language. Or someone miraculously learned a new language they had never before known. This is a miracle by definition, as were all the sign gifts. The gift was used to "proclaim the wonderful works of God" to other people. Can you really compare the incoherent babbling of today to this?

You mentioned having hindus in prayer meetings. From the research I've done, this babbling tongues is not inherent to christianity alone, but is practiced in many other world religions. This automatically should be a cause for concern when comparing this form of tongues to the gift mentioned in Acts. If you can't understand what you are saying, how do you even know it's from God? If no one else can understand it, how can they agree with it?

Firstly, like you correctly mentioned, incoherent babbling and other spiritual manifestation is quite common in religions of the east.
It is often referred to as a kundalini awakening. I am aware of it.

You would also note that in many of Hindu yogic sessions, participants have felt a profound love and sensation of peace.

Does this mean that it takes away from Christianity , where Jesus has also promised all of us peace that passes all understanding?

I believe that whatever is true and real, is always counterfeited by spirits, which is why a lot of people are deceived and deluded like you mentioned in your first post.

After all Satan, too disguises himself as an angel of light. So i do see it quite possible that something from God could be distorted into a counterfeit substitute.

It's happened for almost everything presented to us in this world - from the Gospel , our relationships , sex and just everything.




PS - Btw thank you for the reply! I am trying to learn as much as I can, and quite grateful. God bless you.

 

[notuptome]

There is no such thing as an angelic language in which folks may speak. Paul was using hyperbole when he made that statement. If a person is going to be honest with the scriptures they must acknowledge that the three sign gifts of 1Cor13:8 are the only ones that God has said would end. These happen to be the three that folks desire the most. They are signs for Israel not for Gentiles.

If tongues were still operational today how would they look? The speaker would speak in their native language and be understood in the native language of the hearer. There would be Jewish folks present who as yet were unsaved. So is this what you have experienced? If not why?

Utterances that are not languages are not biblical tongues. In every instance given in the bible there were Jewish folks present when tongues were spoken. It may have been Gentiles speaking but there were Jewish people there to witness the event.

The church at Corinth was indeed blessed by God with many Spiritual gifts but they had become carnal. They were lifted up with pride and were more interested in fame and the esteem of their peers than serving and being served by God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Rachel20]

Btw, I come back to this thread, to say--- I am tired.

I really appreciated all the replies, however I have a lot of other things I wish to do.

ForthAngel, thanks a lot for all the discussion. I will be praying about it all.


I hope all of us will. I think at the end of the day, we need to keep in mind what God is leading us to do and I am sure we all agree on this verse


James 1:5

If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.


So having that assurance that God is there and He does answer us , we can ask Him if we are in the right and to show us the truth.

At the end of the day regardless of our viewpoints, it is still about love. To love others as we love ourselves.

To show kindness to the lost, the suffering and the outcast and what a privilege to be able to do it as Christmas approaches! I hope we can share that blessing to many!


Hope you all are blessed and may Jesus be ever first in your lives.

Have a wonderful time with your families this Christmas.

Much love in Christ,

Rachel

 

[ForthAngel]

Also, I do have a question, when you mention the fulfilled prophecy of judgement to unbelieving Jews, are you referring to the destruction of the temple in AD 70?

PS - Btw thank you for the reply! I am trying to learn as much as I can, and quite grateful. God bless you.

About the prophecy being fulfilled. There are a couple fulfilled around this time really. I may not be able to explain this as well as I'd like, but on the day of Pentecost, Joel 2:28-32 was fulfilled (at least in part). Many of the modern signs advocates say since we are in the last days, the Spirit is being poured out. No, because this event happened already and was quoted by Peter in Acts 2 as proof of that being the time. We have been in the last days since Christ's resurrection.

Joel 2:28English Standard Version (ESV)
The Lord Will Pour Out His Spirit

Joel 2:28-32
God’s Spirit Poured Out

28 “And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
32 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the Lord has said,
Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.

Peter quotes this passage in Acts 2:17-21

In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul quotes Isaiah, regarding the tongues gift:

20 Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21 In the Law it is written:
“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”

The quote is from part of Isaiah where God was bringing judgement against the Jews who would not listen to him so he had the Assyrians conquer them. Paul was comparing the judgement from Isaiah to the gift of tongues they had. Him quoting Isaiah is more evidence in favor of the gift of tongues being a human language as well.

As I read it, to me, it seemed that the self edification would be due to praying with the help of the Spirit [interceding for us in groans and uttering mysteries], regardless of interpretation which was a separate gift.

The groaning has zero to do with the gift of tongues. Nada.

Paul was not encouraging any private prayer language. He was stressing the fact that it was serving no purpose.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. [SUP]15[/SUP]So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.

He was entirely against separating from rationality, or your mind during worship or prayer. It's fruitless to pray in your spirit, if you detach your logic. If you can't understand what you are saying, it's illogical to assume you are saying anything at all. He is giving instructions on NOT praying unintelligibly, but rather use your logic and understanding as well. You can't use your understanding if you haven't the slightest idea what it is you are saying. Therefore, it becomes fruitless other than self-edification, which he is not condoning, but instructing against.

Romans 12:2English Standard Version (ESV)
2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

How do you test what you can't even understand?
It's not about self-edification either:

Matthew 16:24
24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

 

[popeye]

It all still goes back to context. The bible speaks of only one gift of tongues and it's not for oneself, but for others to hear, and it is languages. It was actually a fulfilled prophecy as a sign of judgment to unbelieving Jews. That can't be disputed from a reading of Acts 2. I understand if someone had this gift, that using the new language alone would be self-edifying, and possibly not a bad thing. But Paul insists that it serves no purpose, even for self-edification, if the person can't even understand themselves what they are saying. He therefore urges them to pray that they to can interpret their own gift.

I do believe 1 Corinthians 13 speaks of the ceasing of the gifts as well. What use would faith and hope be if it was referring to Christ's return? Our faith and hope would have come to it's conclusion as we have long awaited in faith and hope for that day.

We also have to realize that what happened on the day of Pentecost was a miracle by definition. It defied nature. Someone was speaking one language and others heard it in their native language. Or someone miraculously learned a new language they had never before known. This is a miracle by definition, as were all the sign gifts. The gift was used to "proclaim the wonderful works of God" to other people. Can you really compare the incoherent babbling of today to this?

You mentioned having hindus in prayer meetings. From the research I've done, this babbling tongues is not inherent to christianity alone, but is practiced in many other world religions. This automatically should be a cause for concern when comparing this form of tongues to the gift mentioned in Acts. If you can't understand what you are saying, how do you even know it's from God? If no one else can understand it, how can they agree with it?

It all still goes back to context. The bible speaks of only one gift of tongues and it's not for oneself, but for others to hear, and it is languages.

Absolutly does not say that at all;
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

But Paul insists that it serves no purpose, even for self-edification, if the person can't even understand themselves what they are saying.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

You are leaving out verses for doctrine's sake my friend.
Salvation is not a concept "only",but indeed a concept to the unsaved.
The gifts are the same. To those ouside the gifts they are mere concepts. For us that have recieved the baptism of the HS it is marvelous beyond words.

No wonder the "knowledge will cease" was included.
Interesting paradox......for the cessationist, his knowledge has ceased?