What is our obligation, as citizens, to America?

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phil112

Guest
#1
This is something that many of us puzzle and agonize over. Do we fight physically? I think it is to be avoided, but what if it can't be avoided? Christ, nor any disciples, resisted physically. But even if we could bring ourselves to submit to physical harm, would God expect us to stand by and watch our children, spouses, or loved ones by hurt? That doesn't sound reasonable to me. All of our emotions and instincts are God-given. We surely are to heed them and learn and understand how to use them properly.

This came to mind, once again, as I was reading this morning. I thank the good Lord daily for the support and edification His word brings to my life. So let's talk about this for a bit. See if we can find and come to a consensus on this difficult topic.

Romans 13:1-7 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."

Here is Strong's explanation of tribute: 5411 NT - Greek
[foroV]
phoros for'-os from [ferw] - phero 5342; a load (as borne)

It isn't just a financial tax, but a load or burden to bear. I understand this as support and solidarity for our government as long as it follows moral dictates.
This article is what prompted me to make this post:
Saudi Arabia Reportedly Passes Law to Execute “Bible Smugglers” - Freedom Outpost
I would not join the armed forces, but I wouldn't hold it against a brother to resist those that would try to impose their will on us. I support all law enforcement officers, whether they be military or civilian, as long as they act within the law.

This is something that we must come to grips with. We are obligated to teach our children how to deal with such things. If it doesn't come into my front yard in my lifetime, of a certainty it will in theirs. I encourage mine and everyone, to resist such evil. If it comes to physical force, then I feel we must protect our own. God has given all parents of all species the instinct to protect their own. There can be no condemnation for such, in my mind.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#2
Well I know i'll be burned down for this opinion but here goes...King David was a warrior king.God told Israel at times to go in and leave no one alive.Not even the livestock.Why? Because they had preyed on the weak,the elderly and God said enough is enough.So yes I think we were right to stop Hitler,and he should have been stopped sooner.I think we should stop evil whenever we can.Not just for our own country but others around the world that are defenseless.I believe that is why America has been so blessed.I believe if you take a life you should use a life the same as the Bible says.That is what God says is just.
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
48
#3
I think people exaggerate the 'horrors to come' as far as religious freedoms in america.
 
May 15, 2013
4,307
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#4
Believers are not suppose to get involved with anything that has to deal with violence. God want us to leave everything in His hands and which He is the only one that can avenge evil. God has shown that He control everything, even Pharaoh's heart; and so if He can control Pharaoh's heart, then He can change the hearts of the wicked, and since some of us were once consider as wicked, how did that some had a change of heart? But when we makes judgment on others, we are saying that there isn't a God and so we has to make the judgment on our own, it is because we actually doesn't believe that there is a God, and so we go and decide whether who shall live or die.

Proverbs 20:22 Do not say, “I’ll pay you back for this wrong!”
Wait for the Lord, and he will avenge you.
 

skipp

Senior Member
Mar 6, 2014
654
7
0
#5
I think we should look at how the early Christians acted under persecution. Start with the Book of Acts.
 

Chopper

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2014
402
11
18
#6
I think people exaggerate the 'horrors to come' as far as religious freedoms in america.
Does this sound like an exaggeration?

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the set-apart place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Messiah, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false messiahs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
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#7
For God and Country
[video=youtube;b1CP_uYmYmo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1CP_uYmYmo[/video]
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#8
This is something that many of us puzzle and agonize over. Do we fight physically? I think it is to be avoided, but what if it can't be avoided? Christ, nor any disciples, resisted physically. But even if we could bring ourselves to submit to physical harm, would God expect us to stand by and watch our children, spouses, or loved ones by hurt? That doesn't sound reasonable to me. All of our emotions and instincts are God-given. We surely are to heed them and learn and understand how to use them properly.

This came to mind, once again, as I was reading this morning. I thank the good Lord daily for the support and edification His word brings to my life. So let's talk about this for a bit. See if we can find and come to a consensus on this difficult topic.

Romans 13:1-7 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."

Here is Strong's explanation of tribute: 5411 NT - Greek
[foroV]
phoros for'-os from [ferw] - phero 5342; a load (as borne)

It isn't just a financial tax, but a load or burden to bear. I understand this as support and solidarity for our government as long as it follows moral dictates.
This article is what prompted me to make this post:
Saudi Arabia Reportedly Passes Law to Execute “Bible Smugglers” - Freedom Outpost
I would not join the armed forces, but I wouldn't hold it against a brother to resist those that would try to impose their will on us. I support all law enforcement officers, whether they be military or civilian, as long as they act within the law.

This is something that we must come to grips with. We are obligated to teach our children how to deal with such things. If it doesn't come into my front yard in my lifetime, of a certainty it will in theirs. I encourage mine and everyone, to resist such evil. If it comes to physical force, then I feel we must protect our own. God has given all parents of all species the instinct to protect their own. There can be no condemnation for such, in my mind.
It would be kind of hard to hash this point out in the Greek...but the passages in Rom 13 reads that all authority, being from God, agrees with God...or is in agreement... Now the love of God defends the weak against the criminal...and to defend our families or children or even our nation against criminals is in harmony with Gods Love...I would say also that each true believer has to answer to God with their own conscience... "I will be there God and they will be my people, they will not need every man say to say know the Lord" We all have a place and purpose and I don't believe I would want to kill even in a just war...but if called ..I would pray and ask My God what He would have me do...then I would do what I sincerely believe He would have me to do....
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#9
It isn't just a financial tax, but a load or burden to bear. I understand this as support and solidarity for our government as long as it follows moral dictates.
This article is what prompted me to make this post:
Saudi Arabia Reportedly Passes Law to Execute “Bible Smugglers” - Freedom Outpost
I would not join the armed forces, but I wouldn't hold it against a brother to resist those that would try to impose their will on us. I support all law enforcement officers, whether they be military or civilian, as long as they act within the law.
Whilst there is most definitely tyranny in nations like Saudi Arabia is the U.S. really any better? Look at the Ukraine for example where the U.S. government is supporting a proxy state in which neo-Nazi sympathies are prevalent in some of the empowered factions and a proxy state which has clearly promoted an agenda of ethnic relocation/cleansing via the shelling of civilian areas and infrastructure in the Donbass region.

There is much evil in the world and serving the perceived "lesser of" is still the service of evil.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#10
I think people exaggerate the 'horrors to come' as far as religious freedoms in america.
Well, This to some extent does not take into account the coming historical context of the BEAST and the events that COME to those who refuse to take the mark.

As in their HEADS removed from their NECK....!

So, either the U.S. has been removed and destroyed as a nation or the mark of the beast sweeps this country as well and everyone found who refuses to take the mark LOOSE their head for the cause of Christ!
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#11
It is one thing to give your life for the cause of Christ...me personally....we should obey the laws of the land unless the laws contradict the word of God.....I am sorry as I will not sit by and let some UN soldier and or vile, wicked man harm and or kill my son....I will light them up and if they are not (lead proof) it will not be good for them.....!
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
48
#12
Well, This to some extent does not take into account the coming historical context of the BEAST and the events that COME to those who refuse to take the mark.

As in their HEADS removed from their NECK....!

So, either the U.S. has been removed and destroyed as a nation or the mark of the beast sweeps this country as well and everyone found who refuses to take the mark LOOSE their head for the cause of Christ!
The tribulation is one thing I don't worry about. Not only do I not think it will be anytime soon, i also dont ascribe the left behind ideas to it. The pure logistics of a one world government are almost impossible. So no Im not terribly concerned
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#13
The tribulation is one thing I don't worry about. Not only do I not think it will be anytime soon, i also dont ascribe the left behind ideas to it. The pure logistics of a one world government are almost impossible. So no Im not terribly concerned
Well, I don't ascribe to the left behind farce as well as I believe post tribulation/pre-wrath ingathering and the fact that all saints here will endure the tribulation.

To your second point.....not sure why you reject a world system under the beast as many scriptures teach and or point to this reality that will come on line.

To your first point about it not happening anytime soon......yeah...keep believing that one....!
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,261
2,386
113
#14
Well I know i'll be burned down for this opinion but here goes...King David was a warrior king.God told Israel at times to go in and leave no one alive.Not even the livestock.Why? Because they had preyed on the weak,the elderly and God said enough is enough.So yes I think we were right to stop Hitler,and he should have been stopped sooner.I think we should stop evil whenever we can.Not just for our own country but others around the world that are defenseless.I believe that is why America has been so blessed.I believe if you take a life you should use a life the same as the Bible says.That is what God says is just.
Regarding the military, we live in a fallen world, and a strong military is essential.
Therefore, being a soldier is an honorable profession.

However, I think it's naive to think our government only sends those honorable soldiers out for honorable causes.
That just isn't how the real world works.
 
Dec 18, 2013
6,733
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#15
It is clear the citizen is the king of America. Only catch is there's hundreds of millions of princes. The many kings themselves are only servants. The wisest of which seek service to Jesus.
 
Jun 30, 2011
2,521
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#16
hmm = only thought i have is when I see the Christian flag lower than the American flag at a church, that kind of upsets me - seek the heavenly kingdom, whose builder is God
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#17
Really Christians just shutup and stay up, oh separation from church and state, baloney. I wish we had more african americans Christians because they don't mind marching and protesting, but sadly Nation of Islam is taking them in. White people just want watch TV and a foot ball game.
 

Chopper

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2014
402
11
18
#18
The tribulation is one thing I don't worry about. Not only do I not think it will be anytime soon, i also dont ascribe the left behind ideas to it. The pure logistics of a one world government are almost impossible. So no Im not terribly concerned
We are told to watch for His return, and we will know by the signs of the times His return draws near.
He will return upon you as a thief in the night and catch you unaware, for you do not recognize the signs of the times my brother. His return is a lot closer than you think.

There are many who recognize the signs, and think that it will be in our lifetime, including me, if that gives you any clue.
 
May 2, 2014
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#19
Hi Kaylagrl,

I think the difference is that God told Israel to go. Who in America hears directly from God?
 
O

oldthennew

Guest
#20
Hi Kaylagrl,

I think the difference is that God told Israel to go. Who in America hears directly from God?
=============================================================

if any proclaiming Christian does not hear from God,
then they lack a true Spiritual relationship.

He speaks to us in so many ways, the problem is -
'deaf ears'.