Doubting the salvation of someone just because they don't believe as you do.

[ChristsArmorBearer]

Recently in another thread, someone who professes to be a pastor or preacher of some sort began to publically denounce the salvation of others simply did not agree with his doctrine. While this thread is not to debate or discuss that doctrine, others who share that doctrine started jumping on the boat saying that if you don't have the faith to believe this way then you do not have the faith to be saved. - The funny thing is that anyone could have just as easily turned their own point around on them and said that if they did not have the faith to believe that God could save someone and work in their despite the fact that these people do not believe the same way as they do, this lack of faith could be a sign they do not have the faith to be saved as well. However, seeing as I neither believe that or want to sound self righteous as they do by making such claims, we'll put an end to that accusation now.

Anyhow, my first question to you is:

If someone truly believes in Christ for their salvation, that Christ came to this earth to die on a cross for our sins and that in order to be saved we must believe in him and him alone for our salvation, what gives you the right to proclaim that anyone else is unsaved?

My second question, by criticisizing and alienating those who believe very simular to you yet may disagree on a few small points, do you not realize or even care that you are possibly doing more damage to the Body of Christ as a whole thus you could be percieved by God and others as "a worker of iniquity"?

My third question, do you not realize that by insisting that no one can be saved unless they believe as you do, that others may begin to look at you not as loving christians but as heretical and dangerous cult such as Jahova's Witnesses and Mormons have been viewed as over the last several centuries?

 

[Dread_Zeppelin]

I couldn't have said it better myself. Christians who attack people, and not the view being discussed, are cancerous destructors of the Body of Christ. I say they are a cancer because they eat away at the individual and cause division amoung other Christians, causing bitterness and hurt. And for what? A pat on the back? A thadda boy from others? I doubt God smiles when you call another one of his sheep unsaved. That is calling God a liar and doing it in His name is dangerous.
We are to be edifyers of the Body of Christ and to correct with a loving hand. That doesn't mean tollerate sin, but it does mean being lead by the Spirit.

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

I couldn't have said it better myself. Christians who attack people, and not the view being discussed, are cancerous destructors of the Body of Christ. I say they are a cancer because they eat away at the individual and cause division amoung other Christians, causing bitterness and hurt. And for what? A pat on the back? A thadda boy from others? I doubt God smiles when you call another one of his sheep unsaved. That is calling God a liar and doing it in His name is dangerous.
We are to be edifyers of the Body of Christ and to correct with a loving hand. That doesn't mean tollerate sin, but it does mean being lead by the Spirit.

Amen sister!

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Recently in another thread, someone who professes to be a pastor or preacher of some sort began to publically denounce the salvation of others simply did not agree with his doctrine. While this thread is not to debate or discuss that doctrine, others who share that doctrine started jumping on the boat saying that if you don't have the faith to believe this way then you do not have the faith to be saved. - The funny thing is that anyone could have just as easily turned their own point around on them and said that if they did not have the faith to believe that God could save someone and work in their despite the fact that these people do not believe the same way as they do, this lack of faith could be a sign they do not have the faith to be saved as well. However, seeing as I neither believe that or want to sound self righteous as they do by making such claims, we'll put an end to that accusation now.

Anyhow, my first question to you is:

If someone truly believes in Christ for their salvation, that Christ came to this earth to die on a cross for our sins and that in order to be saved we must believe in him and him alone for our salvation, what gives you the right to proclaim that anyone else is unsaved?

My second question, by criticisizing and alienating those who believe very simular to you yet may disagree on a few small points, do you not realize or even care that you are possibly doing more damage to the Body of Christ as a whole thus you could be percieved by God and others as "a worker of iniquity"?

My third question, do you not realize that by insisting that no one can be saved unless they believe as you do, that others may begin to look at you not as loving christians but as heretical and dangerous cult such as Jahova's Witnesses and Mormons have been viewed as over the last several centuries?

1. We don't.
2. Amen.
3. There is a time when you must take a stand against a belief that is bad for the body, but this ought not to be done capriciously or easily.

 

[livingbygrace]

Recently in another thread, someone who professes to be a pastor or preacher of some sort began to publically denounce the salvation of others simply did not agree with his doctrine. While this thread is not to debate or discuss that doctrine, others who share that doctrine started jumping on the boat saying that if you don't have the faith to believe this way then you do not have the faith to be saved. - The funny thing is that anyone could have just as easily turned their own point around on them and said that if they did not have the faith to believe that God could save someone and work in their despite the fact that these people do not believe the same way as they do, this lack of faith could be a sign they do not have the faith to be saved as well. However, seeing as I neither believe that or want to sound self righteous as they do by making such claims, we'll put an end to that accusation now.

Anyhow, my first question to you is:

If someone truly believes in Christ for their salvation, that Christ came to this earth to die on a cross for our sins and that in order to be saved we must believe in him and him alone for our salvation, what gives you the right to proclaim that anyone else is unsaved?

My second question, by criticisizing and alienating those who believe very simular to you yet may disagree on a few small points, do you not realize or even care that you are possibly doing more damage to the Body of Christ as a whole thus you could be percieved by God and others as "a worker of iniquity"?

My third question, do you not realize that by insisting that no one can be saved unless they believe as you do, that others may begin to look at you not as loving christians but as heretical and dangerous cult such as Jahova's Witnesses and Mormons have been viewed as over the last several centuries?

I am glad you have started this discussion. I have been on a Christian website in England. A discussion was started 'Are they saved' referring to catholics. There were three main contributors, only to happy it seemed to make quite offensive comments concerning the catholic faith. I would like to make clear I am not a catholic, and personally could not agree with much in catholocism. But these people who made the offensive comments said doctrine and correct belief is everything, but they were not acting in love in my opinion.
Comments like 'the mass is an abomination' were said. Now there are catholics on this website, who were extremely hurt at this. But this did not matter to these people, they said that love was telling the truth. But is love setting out to offend others? Can we not let others know what we think in a kinder way? I believe we can.

And what is the point of us sticking rigidly to our doctrine, saying it is all important if we do not display true love to people?

Paul said. 'All we need is faith working through love' Many I find proclaim the doctrine of faith, and the truth of why Jesusw died, but not the love. To me that is simply making a noise. The only result of the debate was that the kindest, most loving person on the website(a catholic) left because he was so hurt at what was being said, and another Godly person left as well.

I believe that we can often get so rigidly ground in our absolute doctrine that love can be a casualty of it. We can let people know what we think in a kind and sensitive way, surely.
And if someone believes we are saved because Jesus died for us, but works are neccessary to prove our salvation, is that so sinful, and I know many catholics believe that

Jesus actually said.

For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life

Should Jesus have added more to that? was he wrong not to? or is it that often we in our denominations and as individuals have to feel that only our perception of the message is correct. Should we not be able to unite around the most well known verse of the Bible.

 

[VW]

When we use the doctrines of men, even if these men have gotten these doctrines from the scripture, we are in danger of judging others. Doctrines, even though good, and worthwhile for teaching, are not what unifies the body of Christ. The Spirit is what makes us one, by His truth and most especially, by the love of God that He gives us in our hearts.

Throughout the history of the scriptures, from the very first time that they were written down for men to read, they have been misunderstood, misused, and used to condemn others, unjustly. Does this make the scriptures to be at fault? Heaven forbid. Paul, writing, said: "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully know. But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these if love."

Here is how it works. One studies and works to understand the scriptures, because it is what we are taught what God wants of us. And, we develop certain beliefs, and find others who have those same beliefs, and we fellowship with them, and just naturally become exclusive to ourselves. I myself did this, wondering how others could not believe as I did, as my group did. I mean, tongues and miracles and healing and the signs were in the scripture, and yet these others did not believe in them. It made me wonder just what they did believe in. And I judged them as being wrongheaded, mislead, and maybe even lost.

But the Lord showed me the error of what I believed, and how I was the one who was in danger of being lost. He showed me how my lack of love, was actually keeping me out of His life. He showed me that the one true commandment is to love one another even as He loves us. And then I started to see with my spiritual eyes, and that there are so many who love Him, who are awaiting His appearing, who are His in fact, having beliefs which are not the same as mine. And I realized that God is big, much bigger than we can put our little minds around, and He has room in His house for whoever He wishes to bring into it.

It is the ones who condemn on doctrines sake alone who are causing damage to these who are the Lord's. We must have the spirit of discernment if we would know who belongs to the Lord. In the mean time, we must love all.

And we ask of ourselves, "So what if that one does not believe in the rapture, or the filling of the Spirit, or the laying on of hands. Do they have the Spirit of God dwelling in them? Then, they are His. And my responsibility to this one is to love them even as Jesus loves me. If I cannot do that, in the Spirit of Christ, then I have no part of Him."

In His peace,

 

[Dread_Zeppelin]

I'm getting a little sick of the vicious "debating" (lets call it what it is, fighting and slander) by people who harmlessly call it "their opinion"...and by their opinion, it's "God"'s opinion. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth and spirit when I read two grown people tearing eachother down. A house divided can not stand. Its so unChrist like. I'm going to stop reading CC for a while.

 

[Graybeard]

The only time I beg to differ when someone insists on their view and their view is not according to the Bible...how much more plain can the Bible be on certain matters but some will insist otherwise...this is when I would "draw the line"
So if you say this..but the Bible says that...then it is clear that you are wrong.....not so?

 

[daddycat]

I believe that we can often get so rigidly ground in our absolute doctrine that love can be a casualty of it.

Wow... Very well put. That's it in a nutshell. I see this happening all the time.

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

The only time I beg to differ when someone insists on their view and their view is not according to the Bible...how much more plain can the Bible be on certain matters but some will insist otherwise...this is when I would "draw the line"
So if you say this..but the Bible says that...then it is clear that you are wrong.....not so?

The issue is not correction per say but the lack of compassion and the finger pointing while attempting to do so. It is very clear that much of the so-called correction that is being done is not done out of love but out of exalting one's own believes over another, ie. self righteousness.

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

Personally, I don't think it's coincidence that those who are being most abrassive are the same as those who believe it is ok to embrace their own carnalty. Which we know from scripture that nothing good can come from the flesh.

 

[livingbygrace]

The issue is not correction per say but the lack of compassion and the finger pointing while attempting to do so. It is very clear that much of the so-called correction that is being done is not done out of love but out of exalting one's own believes over another, ie. self righteousness.

It is very clear that much of the so-called correction that is being done is not done out of love, but out of exalting ones own beliefs over another, ie. self-righteousness

Well put

 

[Graybeard]

The issue is not correction per say but the lack of compassion and the finger pointing while attempting to do so. It is very clear that much of the so-called correction that is being done is not done out of love but out of exalting one's own believes over another, ie. self righteousness.

lots of that here!

 

[Matthew]

I agree with everything you say, and it can't be said enough in my opinion!

Sadly arrogance/close-minded attitudes are too common and it's hard to have a discussion sometimes without being condemned 'out of love'. say you aren't feeling the love and you get told that's your fault etc...

We should all take a step back sometimes and consider how we conduct ourselves.

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

Personally, I don't think it's coincidence that those who are being most abrassive are the same as those who believe it is ok to embrace their own carnalty. Which we know from scripture that nothing good can come from the flesh.

I apologize for that statement. It was completely off topic and completely uncalled for.

The Holy Spirit has convicted me that, by making such a statement, I am just as guilty of "pointing the finger" as anyone else and have acted hypocritically. Such a statement would only serve to provoke others rather than make the point that I had intended it to make. For that I stand corrected and I appologize to the Lord as welll as to all who may have read it and felt offended.

Repentence is a good thing! *lol*

 

[carpetmanswife]

I apologize for that statement. It was completely off topic and completely uncalled for.

The Holy Spirit has convicted me that, by making such a statement, I am just as guilty of "pointing the finger" as anyone else and have acted hypocritically. Such a statement would only serve to provoke others rather than make the point that I had intended it to make. For that I stand corrected and I appologize to the Lord as welll as to all who may have read it and felt offended.

Repentence is a good thing! *lol*

Dontcha just hate it when that happens !! lol

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

lots of that here!

I'm sorry you feel that way bro. However, you're entittled to your own opinion and I respect that. Sometimes people disagree, that's a fact of life but it doesn't make one or the other any less human. If anything it proves that both are.

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

Dontcha just hate it when that happens !! lol

*lol* well said.

I'm not afraid to step up to the plate and admit when I am wrong. This isn't the first time and most likely won't be the last. *lol*

Sure it's a little embarrasiing but if someone else can learn from it then so be it. I would be very worried and disapoointed if the Holy Spirit didn't correct / humble me from time to time. A good sign that He's at work in my life. Praise God!

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

It's my heart to able to talk about this topic in a sincere, loving way. I do realize that a lot is lost through the fact that the internet can be so impersonal at times. I'm sure that a lot of conversations turn sour because of that factor.

However, when one blantantly points at another and says "you are not saved" then goes on to give a list of reasons as to why they feel that way, it's pretty black and white what your intentions are no matter how you try to sugar coat it. There is no love in that.

In fact, I strongly suggest that if you are truly worried about their salvation, rather than publically humiliate them by denouncing their salvation for all to see, why don't you take the time to send them a sincere private message? - Doing it in public for the excuse of, so everyone else can learn from it, that's no excuse. That's self exaltation. Think about it...

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

Dontcha just hate it when that happens !! lol

I made that comment after reading a couple posts from another thread which I did not comment on but did leave feeling a bit frustrated. Immediately after i made the comment, I walked away from the computer and started to prepare dinner when the Holy Spirit intervined and told me what I had done. I then took dinner off of the stove and came back to make my appology.

Do I feel embarrassed? Absolutely however, I find peace in the fact that God loves me enough to disrupt whatever it is I'm doing to correct me. To some that may seem odd but not to me, that's exactly the kind of relationship I want from Him and the sense of urgency I need from Him. I want to feel his heart in all things no matter how small or trivial it may seem and it is my earnest prayer that as children of the living God that is your request too.

"Confess your sins one to another..."

Amen!