sinless sinners.

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gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#1
Does this bother anyone else?

You will hear from the pulpit that we should live holy lives because of the Grace given us through Christ. we here that we should turn from our sins.

Yet you will also hear "we will never stop sinning till Jesus comes or till after death or some such thing".

Does it strike anyone else that if it is impossible to stop sinning then it is pointless telling people to stop or to be holy etc.

or what about this:

you will always sin yet you are a new creature in Christ.

Really? if I am still a sinner after Christ then what has changed? what is new about it?

lets say I stop some of my sins, why not all? is there only enough power for some?

Or is it just possible that God actually made a way for us to stop sinning through Christ?

thoughts to ponder be interested to see your views backed of course by the word of God.
 
Aug 1, 2009
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#2
Amen.

Like apostle Paul, we should all be getting to a place in our relationship with God where we can say...[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
"...I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this..."
1 Corinthians 4:4
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#3
Good verse, interesting how Paul who had a good grasp of what sin was, yet is able by the grace of Christ to say he knows of nothing he is dong wrong. Yet even then he does not claim that this justifies him. so then it is not necessarily works to claim to be clean as far as you know. any thoughts?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#4
[h=1]Paul do sin, but he agree that law is good.

Paul hate sin, but he do sin.

Probably non believer do sin and not hate it.


Romans 7:15-24New International Version (NIV)[/h]15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
[h=4]Footnotes:[/h]
 
Aug 1, 2009
349
9
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#5
Yes, not works that make him clean, because the only justification we can ever have in God's eyes comes by the righteousness of faith (Romans 9:30-32), rather than trying to be justified through our own obedience of the law (Romans 10:3-4) .

Even though Paul claimed he himself knew nothing against himself, he also claimed that there were HIDDEN things of darkness in the heart that God can see...but Paul may not be able to see. Therefore Paul didn't even judge himself anymore since he knew nothing against himself even though he admitted he couldn't see everything and just left the judging up to God
1 Corinthians 4:3-5 will offer the context of what I am bringing up.

I guess it comes down to the fact that we are looking into a dim mirror (1 Corinthians 13:12) and yet that dim mirror shines so bright in the perspective of our sin tainted scopes (generally speaking) that people even look at how bright that dim mirror is now and think that no one can live it or shine that bright to the point of possibly knowing nothing against yourself....but you can.

But when we see God face to face....that dim mirror is going to fail in comparison, and we need to realize before that day comes that we don't see it all in the dim mirror (just how incredibly Holy and Pure God really is) and it's only Jesus that will ever truly be able to justify us no matter how good or holy we can walk on this earth.

So why walk before God in a way that is Holy to the point of knowing nothing against yourself if it doesn't justify you before Him? Because He tells you to and you're supposed to obey Him because you love Him, and you are supposed to be a living reflection to the world of God's character as best you can.

Those are my thoughts :)
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
586
113
#6
Paul do sin, but he agree that law is good.

Paul hate sin, but he do sin.

Probably non believer do sin and not hate it.


Romans 7:15-24New International Version (NIV)


15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
Footnotes:

Paul's PRE-conversion experience, NOT his post!

Read Rom 7v7-8v11 (esp. 7v11,24,25, 8v1-4)

See also 1Cor 9v24-27
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,002
764
113
39
Australia
#7
This, this and this:
Eph 4:20-24
But that is not the way you learned Christ!— assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self,[SUP]f[/SUP] which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#8
Paul's PRE-conversion experience, NOT his post!

Read Rom 7v7-8v11 (esp. 7v11,24,25, 8v1-4)

See also 1Cor 9v24-27

[h=1]Romans 7:25King James Version (KJV)[/h]25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


I don't quite understand this verse.

Is that mean his mind serve God but his body/flesh serve sin?
 
Oct 27, 2014
2
0
0
#9
Does this bother anyone else?

You will hear from the pulpit that we should live holy lives because of the Grace given us through Christ. we here that we should turn from our sins.

Yet you will also hear "we will never stop sinning till Jesus comes or till after death or some such thing".

Does it strike anyone else that if it is impossible to stop sinning then it is pointless telling people to stop or to be holy etc.

or what about this:

you will always sin yet you are a new creature in Christ.

Really? if I am still a sinner after Christ then what has changed? what is new about it?

lets say I stop some of my sins, why not all? is there only enough power for some?

Or is it just possible that God actually made a way for us to stop sinning through Christ?

thoughts to ponder be interested to see your views backed of course by the word of God.

Beautiful and true honest questions. But I suspect you will not get the answers here. As the convention and mindset on CC is that you CANNOT overcome sin and to claim to have the power to overcome, you run the risk of being labelled a heretic and awaiting a ban, regardless that the scriptures expressly says We do have this power to overcome sin.

All I can say is Good luck on this Question bro..
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,002
764
113
39
Australia
#10
Beautiful and true honest questions. But I suspect you will not get the answers here. As the convention and mindset on CC is that you CANNOT overcome sin and to claim to have the power to overcome, you run the risk of being labelled a heretic and awaiting a ban, regardless that the scriptures expressly says We do have this power to overcome sin.

All I can say is Good luck on this Question bro..
Whoever believes this believes a lie and unaware of the tool that being used.

1 Cor 15 56-57
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#11
Romans 7:25King James Version (KJV)

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


I don't quite understand this verse.

Is that mean his mind serve God but his body/flesh serve sin?

No that is not what Paul means.

Take a look at the verse and then what Paul says in chapter 8.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Freedom in the Spirit is freedom from the law of sin and walking not after the flesh.
 
C

ChristIsGod

Guest
#12
Look at all the "If we's, ye's, any's" ~

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.




Seems fair enough ~ 4 out of 8 both ways.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#13
John (Yahchanan 15:4-6, "Abide in Me, and I in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#14
Funny thing is anyone can stop sinning by the exact same method in which we receive forgiveness. simply have faith and claim the promises as it is written:

2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
 
C

ChristIsGod

Guest
#15
Romans 8 is my favorite hope-filled chpt.
And I repeat Phil 3:7-15 when I need cheering up, too.

I will add 2Cor 1:20 and Hiz's always help me as well. Thanks youse!!
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#16
Look at all the "If we's, ye's, any's" ~

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.




Seems fair enough ~ 4 out of 8 both ways.
What is this verse mean:

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
'
 
Dec 26, 2014
3,757
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#17
Romans 7:25King James Version (KJV)

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
I don't quite understand this verse.
Is that mean his mind serve God but his body/flesh serve sin?

yes. remember what Yahweh told cain about sin ? (in Genesis) (to understand what Yeshua Messiah and the Apostles said/taught/wrote, it is necessary to read the OT fully; it is a sin to do what priests,pastors,preachers and teachers have done since constntne disobedient to Torah)
[h=1] Genesis 4:6-7Expanded Bible (EXB)[/h] [SUP]6 [/SUP]The Lord asked Cain, “Why are you angry? Why ·do you look so unhappy [[SUP]L [/SUP]has your face/countenance fallen; 4:5]? [SUP]7 [/SUP]If you do things ·well [correctly; appropriately], ·I will [[SUP]L [/SUP]will I not…?] accept you, but if you do not do them ·well [correctly; appropriately], sin is ·ready to attack you [[SUP]L [/SUP]crouching at the door]. Sin ·wants [desires to control; 3:16] you, but you must rule over it.”

Genesis 4:6-7Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
6 Adonai said to Kayin, “Why are you angry? Why so downcast? 7 If you are doing what is good, shouldn’t you hold your head high? And if you don’t do what is good, sin is crouching at the door — it wants you, but you can rule over it.”

Genesis 4:6-7Revised Standard Version (RSV)
6 The Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it.”

Bereshis 4:6-7Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
6 And Hashem said unto Kayin, Why art thou angry? And why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest right, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou doest not right, chattat croucheth at the petach. And unto thee shall be its teshukah (desire), and thou must rule over it.
 
Dec 26, 2014
3,757
19
0
#18
Funny thing is anyone can stop sinning by the exact same method in which we receive forgiveness. simply have faith and claim the promises as it is written:

2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
will that be so funny later? or, remember Yeshua (the Savior,Messiah, the One WHO IS ABLE TO FORGIVE SIN) asks "why call me "Lord, Lord?" but don't "DO" what I say ? "Be gone from ME, I NEVER KNEW YOU" of those who 'thought' that because they had (real) 'faith' they were saved.....
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#19
What is this verse mean:

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
'
notice the verse before this:

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

this is the Gospel. but how can we be cleansed if we say we have not sin? thus the verse you asked about.

How can we be cleansed if we say we have no sin?

John repeats the same sentiment in the next verse:

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This verse is similar to verse 7. notice we "if we confess" you can't confess sins if you think and say you have no sin thus no forgiveness and no cleansing.

And again the next verse is similar to verse 8:

1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

so note, verse 7 and 9 go together and verse 8 and 10 go together. John is not suggesting that one will never or could never be without sin. but rather that in order for one to come to Christ and Receive forgiveness and cleansing we must confess and admit we are sinners in need of cleansing. Those who do not can not be cleansed/cleaned of their sin.

John makes it clear that sin stops in later chapters as he moves into what it means to be cleansed after confession and humbling ones self.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Hope this helps,

Blessings.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#20
will that be so funny later? or, remember Yeshua (the Savior,Messiah, the One WHO IS ABLE TO FORGIVE SIN) asks "why call me "Lord, Lord?" but don't "DO" what I say ? "Be gone from ME, I NEVER KNEW YOU" of those who 'thought' that because they had (real) 'faith' they were saved.....
real faith has works as it is written:

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

those works are obedience as Jesus said and in another place:

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

workers of iniquity/sin/lawlessness.

but if we by faith are filled with the Spirit as God who is faithful has promised then we will have the law fulfilled in us.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

for the fruit of the spirit is righteousness and against such there is no law.

True faith brings the works of obedience.