Can some well-versed in Charismatic apologetics help me with this one:

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Tom_in_CA

Guest
#1
[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Can some well-versed in Charismatic apologetics help me with this one: From those of you who are more versed as proponents of Charismatic theological persuasion. To set the stage for this question, let me lay out some premises:

a) I think all of us Christians, no matter what denominational leanings we are, desire to have a closer walk. And would love nothing more than to see/feel supernatural closeness, miraculous, divine, etc....

b) There is an oft-cited counter-point given, by those who lean away from the charismatic doctrines (signs, wonders, miracles, tongues, etc....). And that counter-point goes something like this: That those manifestations/occurrences manifest themselves more in "frontier environments". So for example: obviously at the ushering in of the new church age (book of Acts and immediate subsequent epistles), you would, of course, see more of those miraculous type occurrences recorded. Since that was a "frontier" introduction time. Where ..... those signs validated the then-new phenomenom. Otherwise, as they say .... "talk is cheap", eh?

c) And those who cite this line of reasoning, will perhaps say that such signs, wonders, miracles, etc.... can still occur, in this modern day & age, in "frontier" environments. Like the mission fields. And with such persecutions that exist in hostile environments such as that. Contrast to the USA, where there's seemingly a church on every corner. And access at any time to a Bible, no persecution here, etc....

d) And on the surface, this *does* appear to be anecdotally true. So, for example: you will often hear of missionaries (in both charismatic and non-charismatic churches), come to the USA when they speak, telling of wonderous things they've seen, miracles, etc.... on the mission field.

e) however, the point #D above, is often taken by some believers as a "shame on us" to American Christians. As if, we don't have enough faith to see those those things happen on a daily/weekly basis, here, now, in our lives.

f) Or if we've prayed and prayed, tried and tried, and simply don't feel we've "worshipped" UNTIL we have some sort of supernatural occurrence, or "feelings", etc... then .... we can figure we're "missing out". Or "don't have enough faith". As if we should be perpetually waiting in expectation, and really believe it should be the norm, all-the-time. Lest ..... well ...... we must be blowing it.

g) I passed this "frontier" theory past a few charismatic Christians over the years. Curious as to what their input would be. And .... as to be expected: they immediately distanced themselves from this explanation. And would, of course, point to versus about how we can do "greater works than these", and all such signs and wonder *will* accompany them. And in addition, they will also point out that: nowhere in scripture does it say that those phenomenons in Acts are limited to "just then". Or limited to "just frontier times & places". And on the surface, this does seem to be the case. So for example, when you look in the concordance under "frontier", you would see no such Bible versus saying such a thing, in those words. Doh! :)

h) However, in my recent Bible readings, I was going through the Book of Deuteronomy. And I wonder if I do, in fact, see this characteristic of God's dealings with mankind. That, in fact, He has ages and eras of supernatural, spectacular, signs, miracles, etc... Yet other following eras, where no such things are going to *necessarily* be present.

i) Remember at the start of Deuteronomy, when Moses and the children of Israel are all poised to cross the river. Moses gives them a multi-chapter lecture. Drilling them over and over again on what had just occurred over the prior 40+ yrs. Eg.: their slavery in Egypt. The deliverance from Pharaoh accompanied by a series of miracles, plagues, etc... Then their wanderings through the desert, also accompanied by periodic miracles, judgements (to root out the naysayers/doubters), etc... And then Moses implores this upcoming generation, who is about to enter the promised land, to "remember remember remember". Ie.: don't forget the miracles you have seen (past tense). And tell your children (future tense) about them over and over. And holidays set up for the express purpose of "remembering" episodes that ... will soon be generations behind you. So that when the future children ask "why do we celebrate such & such?", it is to "recall the such & such event".

But ask yourself: Why are those future generations, at the time of Moses' speech, being told to look backwards at those spectacular proofs ? Why isn't God simply going to give each subsequent generation THEIR OWN sets of miraculous proofs?

So as I read that in Deuteronomy, I began to wonder if this isn't an actual case, of the "frontier" and "persecution" type point of point #B above ? That perhaps we are NOT going to *always* get miraculous signs and wonders, no matter how hard we try, and with no fault of our own ? That there ARE, in fact (just like the times upcoming that Moses warned about) that there would need to be a reliance on the proofs of the prior times, & of the written/revealed word.

So how does the Charismatic viewpoint answer this? My experience with the answer so far (at least from the more hard-core proponents) is that they will distance themselves from anything that hints of this. And distance themselves from anything hinting that we should not or can not, have full here-&-now-today miraculous. Ie.: that it should be the "norm". Lest, we're missing out, lacking faith, haven't quite arrived at a point of worship, etc....

But then how do they answer this concept in Deuteronomy? Which seems to be an indication that .... yes ... God does have periods where there will not be day-to-day miracles, through no fault of our own ?

thanx !
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passinthru

Guest
#2
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[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]Mar 16:14[/TD]
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[TD="class: td_bible_text"]Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. [/TD]
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Mar 16:15[/TD]
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[TD="class: td_bible_text"]And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [/TD]
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Mar 16:16[/TD]
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[TD="class: td_bible_text"]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. [/TD]
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Mar 16:17[/TD]
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[TD="class: td_bible_text"]And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; [/TD]
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Mar 16:18[/TD]
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[TD="class: td_bible_text"]They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. [/TD]
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passinthru

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#3
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[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]1Co 14:33[/TD]
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[TD="class: td_bible_text"]For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. [/TD]
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passinthru

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#4
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[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]1Co 3:22[/TD]
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[TD="class: td_bible_text"]Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; [/TD]
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1Co 3:23[/TD]
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[TD="class: td_bible_text"]And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.[/TD]
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Dec 26, 2014
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#5
after his resurrection, messiah yeshua did not let himself be seen by anyone except the faithful (all btw who were immersed in His Name), abiding in His Word(devoted to ABBA), honoring Torah. (even the gentiles who were 'saved' all honored Torah. ) ((no, Torah does not mean nor say that ANYONE was ever or could ever be saved by the law.)). Torah is All Breathed from Yahweh to men. (written on the hearts of the faithful / His Chosen Set Apart Ones Today)
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#6
It's all about the cross. As they looked forward to the cross, we look back to the cross. As for the signs and Miracles, the Pharisee's asked Jesus for a sign and He said there will be no sign, but yet He was healing all the sick that came to Him and even in their presence. The signs were in their face, but having eyes to see they could not see.

Miracles still happen today in America and not just in the mission field. I could give testimony of many, such as my mother in law being healed of brain cancer when the doctor gave her 6 months and that was 21 years ago and she still here. I could keep going.

Also financial miracles and I have seen a been apart of many. But the most important and the most amazing miracle of all is salvation. To see a hardened criminal kneel in tears as he accepts Christ is the most amazing thing I have ever seen. For people that have no regard for God and our vile and profane people to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior is the greatest miracle I have seen. For God to turn that stone hard heart into putty and I have seen healings and paralytics restored and withered hands made whole and crippled legs made straight. I'm still amazed at how God turns that heart of stone into putty.
 
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Tom_in_CA

Guest
#7
Kerry, thanx for chiming in. And as you saw from my premise-points, I never said that "miracles don't happen today". So that was not the question. The question was about whether it is to be the "expected norm." Versus whether such things are MORE EVIDENT in "frontier environments". And whether the concept seen there in Deuteronomy, in Moses' speech, isn't an example of that concept in action.

Yes ? No ? If not, why not ?
 
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Tom_in_CA

Guest
#8
passinthru: I'm trying to understand your answer. In your first reply, you cite the type verses I alluded to in my premises. Ie.: that I already acknowledge those would be the verses presented, by those who maintain that we should sit in expectation of miracles, signs, wonders, here and now as the "norm". So I already am aware of those. And yes, none of them say "... only in frontier environments". Doh! :)

But am wondering if ....... when scripture is taken as a whole, can we infer that there will be times when we are to take as our evidence/proof, BACKWARD-looking episodes/eyewitness historical accounts? Just as in the case of Moses in Deuteronomy warning them to "remember". Notice that the generations to follow, weren't going to necessarily get THEIR OWN sets of dazzling miracles. Hence Moses was warning them to "remember" (look back).
 
Jan 2, 2015
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#9
This may be a bit late but....there are lots of pseudo Christians ( I use the term lightly ) who will say..confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus..or by Grace your saved..or by faith your saved ..or lets not forget a world favorite..for God so loved the world...it has probably come to your attention by now that its a package deal..all..not bits and pieces ..and if your believer..mark 16 v 16 onwards comes alive within you..baptized..(acts 2 v 38 )..these signs (all of them..dont get confused as to how the church IS run in corinth...) will follow true believers...(NOT THOSE WHO DONT )...yes even today..( Jesus same yesterday today and forever ) God is a Spirit and must pray in spirit (tongues ) I recieved 30 years ago and from that time have seen and experienced the miraculous every day..I have had many healings..my family also..much much more its not just back then its because people want to believe what they want and not submit to what God has laid down..

I believe mr Obama is (for now) president of USA..mr Putin USSR..Queen Elizabeth is monarch of Uk etc belief is more than just being aware...its..TRUST IN..RELY ON...OBEY many are ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth..! acts 2 v 38 etc just do it !

Religion makes you do the work..GOD though Jesus Christ has made it easy for all as HE will do the works in your life eg smoking and alcohol drugs along with migraines ( all my life ) once I received the Holy Spirit ( with the Bible evidence of speaking in tongues ) the joy and peace was overwhelming to the point two weeks later i saw a carton of smokes on my fridge and realized I had not touched a cig nor alcohol nor drugs nor suffered migraine for over two weeks..no withdrawals just as if I never had them..much much more..he becomes your Father and you his child..from then on all scripture and promises are yours..