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[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Can some well-versed in Charismatic apologetics help me with this one: From those of you who are more versed as proponents of Charismatic theological persuasion. To set the stage for this question, let me lay out some premises:
a) I think all of us Christians, no matter what denominational leanings we are, desire to have a closer walk. And would love nothing more than to see/feel supernatural closeness, miraculous, divine, etc....
b) There is an oft-cited counter-point given, by those who lean away from the charismatic doctrines (signs, wonders, miracles, tongues, etc....). And that counter-point goes something like this: That those manifestations/occurrences manifest themselves more in "frontier environments". So for example: obviously at the ushering in of the new church age (book of Acts and immediate subsequent epistles), you would, of course, see more of those miraculous type occurrences recorded. Since that was a "frontier" introduction time. Where ..... those signs validated the then-new phenomenom. Otherwise, as they say .... "talk is cheap", eh?
c) And those who cite this line of reasoning, will perhaps say that such signs, wonders, miracles, etc.... can still occur, in this modern day & age, in "frontier" environments. Like the mission fields. And with such persecutions that exist in hostile environments such as that. Contrast to the USA, where there's seemingly a church on every corner. And access at any time to a Bible, no persecution here, etc....
d) And on the surface, this *does* appear to be anecdotally true. So, for example: you will often hear of missionaries (in both charismatic and non-charismatic churches), come to the USA when they speak, telling of wonderous things they've seen, miracles, etc.... on the mission field.
e) however, the point #D above, is often taken by some believers as a "shame on us" to American Christians. As if, we don't have enough faith to see those those things happen on a daily/weekly basis, here, now, in our lives.
f) Or if we've prayed and prayed, tried and tried, and simply don't feel we've "worshipped" UNTIL we have some sort of supernatural occurrence, or "feelings", etc... then .... we can figure we're "missing out". Or "don't have enough faith". As if we should be perpetually waiting in expectation, and really believe it should be the norm, all-the-time. Lest ..... well ...... we must be blowing it.
g) I passed this "frontier" theory past a few charismatic Christians over the years. Curious as to what their input would be. And .... as to be expected: they immediately distanced themselves from this explanation. And would, of course, point to versus about how we can do "greater works than these", and all such signs and wonder *will* accompany them. And in addition, they will also point out that: nowhere in scripture does it say that those phenomenons in Acts are limited to "just then". Or limited to "just frontier times & places". And on the surface, this does seem to be the case. So for example, when you look in the concordance under "frontier", you would see no such Bible versus saying such a thing, in those words. Doh!
h) However, in my recent Bible readings, I was going through the Book of Deuteronomy. And I wonder if I do, in fact, see this characteristic of God's dealings with mankind. That, in fact, He has ages and eras of supernatural, spectacular, signs, miracles, etc... Yet other following eras, where no such things are going to *necessarily* be present.
i) Remember at the start of Deuteronomy, when Moses and the children of Israel are all poised to cross the river. Moses gives them a multi-chapter lecture. Drilling them over and over again on what had just occurred over the prior 40+ yrs. Eg.: their slavery in Egypt. The deliverance from Pharaoh accompanied by a series of miracles, plagues, etc... Then their wanderings through the desert, also accompanied by periodic miracles, judgements (to root out the naysayers/doubters), etc... And then Moses implores this upcoming generation, who is about to enter the promised land, to "remember remember remember". Ie.: don't forget the miracles you have seen (past tense). And tell your children (future tense) about them over and over. And holidays set up for the express purpose of "remembering" episodes that ... will soon be generations behind you. So that when the future children ask "why do we celebrate such & such?", it is to "recall the such & such event".
But ask yourself: Why are those future generations, at the time of Moses' speech, being told to look backwards at those spectacular proofs ? Why isn't God simply going to give each subsequent generation THEIR OWN sets of miraculous proofs?
So as I read that in Deuteronomy, I began to wonder if this isn't an actual case, of the "frontier" and "persecution" type point of point #B above ? That perhaps we are NOT going to *always* get miraculous signs and wonders, no matter how hard we try, and with no fault of our own ? That there ARE, in fact (just like the times upcoming that Moses warned about) that there would need to be a reliance on the proofs of the prior times, & of the written/revealed word.
So how does the Charismatic viewpoint answer this? My experience with the answer so far (at least from the more hard-core proponents) is that they will distance themselves from anything that hints of this. And distance themselves from anything hinting that we should not or can not, have full here-&-now-today miraculous. Ie.: that it should be the "norm". Lest, we're missing out, lacking faith, haven't quite arrived at a point of worship, etc....
But then how do they answer this concept in Deuteronomy? Which seems to be an indication that .... yes ... God does have periods where there will not be day-to-day miracles, through no fault of our own ?
thanx ![/FONT]
a) I think all of us Christians, no matter what denominational leanings we are, desire to have a closer walk. And would love nothing more than to see/feel supernatural closeness, miraculous, divine, etc....
b) There is an oft-cited counter-point given, by those who lean away from the charismatic doctrines (signs, wonders, miracles, tongues, etc....). And that counter-point goes something like this: That those manifestations/occurrences manifest themselves more in "frontier environments". So for example: obviously at the ushering in of the new church age (book of Acts and immediate subsequent epistles), you would, of course, see more of those miraculous type occurrences recorded. Since that was a "frontier" introduction time. Where ..... those signs validated the then-new phenomenom. Otherwise, as they say .... "talk is cheap", eh?
c) And those who cite this line of reasoning, will perhaps say that such signs, wonders, miracles, etc.... can still occur, in this modern day & age, in "frontier" environments. Like the mission fields. And with such persecutions that exist in hostile environments such as that. Contrast to the USA, where there's seemingly a church on every corner. And access at any time to a Bible, no persecution here, etc....
d) And on the surface, this *does* appear to be anecdotally true. So, for example: you will often hear of missionaries (in both charismatic and non-charismatic churches), come to the USA when they speak, telling of wonderous things they've seen, miracles, etc.... on the mission field.
e) however, the point #D above, is often taken by some believers as a "shame on us" to American Christians. As if, we don't have enough faith to see those those things happen on a daily/weekly basis, here, now, in our lives.
f) Or if we've prayed and prayed, tried and tried, and simply don't feel we've "worshipped" UNTIL we have some sort of supernatural occurrence, or "feelings", etc... then .... we can figure we're "missing out". Or "don't have enough faith". As if we should be perpetually waiting in expectation, and really believe it should be the norm, all-the-time. Lest ..... well ...... we must be blowing it.
g) I passed this "frontier" theory past a few charismatic Christians over the years. Curious as to what their input would be. And .... as to be expected: they immediately distanced themselves from this explanation. And would, of course, point to versus about how we can do "greater works than these", and all such signs and wonder *will* accompany them. And in addition, they will also point out that: nowhere in scripture does it say that those phenomenons in Acts are limited to "just then". Or limited to "just frontier times & places". And on the surface, this does seem to be the case. So for example, when you look in the concordance under "frontier", you would see no such Bible versus saying such a thing, in those words. Doh!
h) However, in my recent Bible readings, I was going through the Book of Deuteronomy. And I wonder if I do, in fact, see this characteristic of God's dealings with mankind. That, in fact, He has ages and eras of supernatural, spectacular, signs, miracles, etc... Yet other following eras, where no such things are going to *necessarily* be present.
i) Remember at the start of Deuteronomy, when Moses and the children of Israel are all poised to cross the river. Moses gives them a multi-chapter lecture. Drilling them over and over again on what had just occurred over the prior 40+ yrs. Eg.: their slavery in Egypt. The deliverance from Pharaoh accompanied by a series of miracles, plagues, etc... Then their wanderings through the desert, also accompanied by periodic miracles, judgements (to root out the naysayers/doubters), etc... And then Moses implores this upcoming generation, who is about to enter the promised land, to "remember remember remember". Ie.: don't forget the miracles you have seen (past tense). And tell your children (future tense) about them over and over. And holidays set up for the express purpose of "remembering" episodes that ... will soon be generations behind you. So that when the future children ask "why do we celebrate such & such?", it is to "recall the such & such event".
But ask yourself: Why are those future generations, at the time of Moses' speech, being told to look backwards at those spectacular proofs ? Why isn't God simply going to give each subsequent generation THEIR OWN sets of miraculous proofs?
So as I read that in Deuteronomy, I began to wonder if this isn't an actual case, of the "frontier" and "persecution" type point of point #B above ? That perhaps we are NOT going to *always* get miraculous signs and wonders, no matter how hard we try, and with no fault of our own ? That there ARE, in fact (just like the times upcoming that Moses warned about) that there would need to be a reliance on the proofs of the prior times, & of the written/revealed word.
So how does the Charismatic viewpoint answer this? My experience with the answer so far (at least from the more hard-core proponents) is that they will distance themselves from anything that hints of this. And distance themselves from anything hinting that we should not or can not, have full here-&-now-today miraculous. Ie.: that it should be the "norm". Lest, we're missing out, lacking faith, haven't quite arrived at a point of worship, etc....
But then how do they answer this concept in Deuteronomy? Which seems to be an indication that .... yes ... God does have periods where there will not be day-to-day miracles, through no fault of our own ?
thanx ![/FONT]