Done Away?

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Have these things happened already?

  • All has been NOT YET been fulfilled, we await the return of Messiah

    Votes: 22 84.6%
  • All has been fulfilled, even the return of Messiah

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Heaven and earth has passed HAS NOT PASSED

    Votes: 12 46.2%
  • Heaven and earth has passed

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • All things have NOT YET been perfected

    Votes: 14 53.8%
  • All things have been perfected

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    26

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#1
So growing up I was told this is where Jesus did away/did so you didn't have to the Law....

However when I got older and read for myself I realized this was the exact proof that the Law had no been done away.

but to fulfill them

Unless heaven and earth passes away

until all things are perfected

These three must be before the Law can be done away/destroyed/etc.

Have they all happened?


Matt 5:17-18, "Do not even think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to destroy them, but to fulfill them. For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."


So lets walk through this;

"Do not even think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to destroy them, but to fulfill them"

"but to fulfill them"

So I'm told yep He fulfilled everything thus the Law (Instructions) of Yah are "destroyed/done away"....

So the first thing I find odd is the fact that He said 2 times, He DID NOT come to destroy he Law/prophets....

But lets look at
"but to fulfill them"

Has He fulfilled everything written in the Law and the prophets that is for Him to fulfill?

There is a prophecy that says Yahshua (Jesus) will return, He has not YET fulfilled this
;

Revelation 19:13-15:, "And He was wrapped in a tallit dipped in blood, and the Name of Him is called: Yahshua--The Salvation of Yahweh. And the armies in heaven clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him upon white horses, And out of His mouth goes a sharp, two-edged sword, that with it He should strike the nations; and He will rule over them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty Yahweh."

So we can CLEARLY see He has not yet fulfilled ALL the Law and prophets, and you know what part of the Law He has not yet fulfilled? Judgement. (Came as a Lamb, returns as a Lion.)

These are Yahshua's (Jesus) words;

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Mattithyah 16:27, “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His Malakim; and then He will reward every man according to his works.”

Yahchanan (John) 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

I know I know "JUSTIFIED BY WORKSSSSS!!!!!!" LOL, these are the WORDS OF THE SAVIOR.

Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

"Unless heaven and earth passes away..the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law"

Has heaven and earth passed away? I will give you a minute to look out your window.......

No? Still there? So according to HIM, not me, Him, nothing will pass from the Law. (the real Sacifice is complete, and the Pristhood has taken on it true form, as Yahshua is the High Priest now.)

When will heaven and earth pass? Does Scripture give us a hint? Thank Yah, it does;


Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahchanan, saw the holy city, Yahweh Shammah, coming down from Yahweh out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of Yahweh is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and Yahweh Himself will be with them, and be their Father.

Since He says, "Unless heaven and earth passes away..the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law"

So the prophecy of heaven and earth "passing" is not yet fulfilled, but clearly written, so how have the Law been thrown out?

A few more supporting verses;

Isayah 66:21-24, "And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, says Yahweh. For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make will remain before Me, says Yahweh: so will your seed and your name remain. And it will come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh will come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched; and they will be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."


Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

"will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected"

"until all things are perfected"

Have all things been perfected?

Is there still sin and death? Yeah? Then how have ALL things been perfected?


This is the perfection of all things;

Revelation 21:4-8 And Yahweh will wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there will be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, nor will there be any more pain, for the former things have passed away. And He Who sat upon the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new. And He said to me: Write, for these words are true and faithful.And He said to me: It is done! I am Aleph and Tau, the Beginning and the End. I will give to him who thirsts of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes will inherit all things; and I will be his Father, and he will be My son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and worshipers of false gods, and all liars, will have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone--which is the second death."
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
#2
Good poll, one doesn't see a multiple choice poll often and it allows for a more accurate representation of one's convictions.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
#3
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Hizikyah again.
 
A

AnnaBou

Guest
#4
I never understand the discussions in the Bible discussion bit. They make my head hurt. what is this all about?
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,709
6,307
113
#5
I never understand the discussions in the Bible discussion bit. They make my head hurt. what is this all about?
this about people saying you have to keep the O.T. law to be saved. they are wrong and blind. pay no attention to them, young person. Ephesians chapter 2 explains Christ and the law very well. they can chirp all they want, Bible wins.
 
A

AnnaBou

Guest
#6
this about people saying you have to keep the O.T. law to be saved. they are wrong and blind. pay no attention to them, young person. Ephesians chapter 2 explains Christ and the law very well. they can chirp all they want, Bible wins.
Oh that's good then. No need to find a goat to sacrifice. phew!
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#7
this about people saying you have to keep the O.T. law to be saved. they are wrong and blind. pay no attention to them, young person. Ephesians chapter 2 explains Christ and the law very well. they can chirp all they want, Bible wins.
This thread is about Matt 5:17-18.

and if that passage does away with the Law or not.

Since you brought up Eph 2,;

I want to point out that the words that are in italics are ADDED:

Ephesians 2:15-16, (NKJV), "having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. "

Not only does the next verse tell us what was abolished, but when you remove the ADDED words the meaning changes.

Ephesians 2:15-16, "Abolishing the enmity the Law, the Commandments, and the Ordinances, through His own flesh, in order to create in Himself one new man from the two; making peace, That would reconcile both in one body to Yahweh through the sacrifice--having killed the enmity through Himself."

enmity is:
Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

Feminine of G2190; hostility; by implication a reason for opposition:—enmity, hatred.

The opposition to Yahweh's instructions was abolished, not the Law it's self.

Yeremyah 31:33, "After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; minds, and I will be their Father, and they will be My people."

It is impossible to have HIS LAW written on your heart if you are in opposition (enmity) to it, so the ENMITY was abolished.

Romans 8:6-8, "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."

Again:

"I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts"
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,709
6,307
113
#8
o.k. done talking with you hizikyah. change the Bible, interpret it to suit your beliefs. if you take out that is it STILL MEANS THE SAME THING. the law IS THE EMITY. but since you choose blindness and will not listen to anyone, I say good day and good luck to you.
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#9
--The past tense in verses as Col 2:14; Eph 2:5 shows that Christ taking the OT out of the way has already happened, not something that will happen in the future.

--Lk 16:17 "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail."
Christ is not saying that heaven and earth must first pass away for the OT law to cease but He is making a figurative comparison.....it would be easier for heaven and earth to fail than for the OT to fail in accomplishing its intended purpose.

--the OT and NT are two incompatible laws that cannot continue to co-exist side by side. One reason is that the OT is based on the blood of bulls and goats that could not remit sins while the NT is based on the blood of Christ that can remit sins. Also, Paul points out in Rom 7:1-7 and the Galatian epistle it is sinful for a Christian to try and keep both the OT law and NT law at the same time. Lastly, Gal 3:10-12 the OT law allowed for one to faithlessly keep that law perfectly thereby merit salvation. Does the NT allow for this?
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#10
o.k. done talking with you hizikyah. change the Bible, interpret it to suit your beliefs. if you take out that is it STILL MEANS THE SAME THING. the law IS THE EMITY. but since you choose blindness and will not listen to anyone, I say good day and good luck to you.
If you think do not kill, do not steal, do not lie is enmity, I dont know what to say.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#11
--The past tense in verses as Col 2:14; Eph 2:5 shows that Christ taking the OT out of the way has already happened, not something that will happen in the future.

--Lk 16:17 "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail."
Christ is not saying that heaven and earth must first pass away for the OT law to cease but He is making a figurative comparison.....it would be easier for heaven and earth to fail than for the OT to fail in accomplishing its intended purpose.

--the OT and NT are two incompatible laws that cannot continue to co-exist side by side. One reason is that the OT is based on the blood of bulls and goats that could not remit sins while the NT is based on the blood of Christ that can remit sins. Also, Paul points out in Rom 7:1-7 and the Galatian epistle it is sinful for a Christian to try and keep both the OT law and NT law at the same time. Lastly, Gal 3:10-12 the OT law allowed for one to faithlessly keep that law perfectly thereby merit salvation. Does the NT allow for this?
So "Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law"

So.....Heaven and earth passing had nothing to do with it? Why would He say, unless?
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#12
Im curious why those who say the Law is done away have not voted?
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,709
6,307
113
#13
If you think do not kill, do not steal, do not lie is enmity, I dont know what to say.
of course I do not think it is o.k. to murder covet steal have idols before God etc.. let me toss you this and I'm done for real: just because many of us say that we do not have to keep the O.T. law you and others automatically assume that we think we can do whatever and live however and still be saved if we believe in Jesus. I am not saying that. I do believe in personal holiness. out.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#14
o.k. done talking with you hizikyah. change the Bible, interpret it to suit your beliefs. if you take out that is it STILL MEANS THE SAME THING. the law IS THE EMITY. but since you choose blindness and will not listen to anyone, I say good day and good luck to you.
If you think do not kill, do not steal, do not lie is enmity, I dont know what to say.
of course I do not think it is o.k. to murder covet steal have idols before God etc.. let me toss you this and I'm done for real: just because many of us say that we do not have to keep the O.T. law you and others automatically assume that we think we can do whatever and live however and still be saved if we believe in Jesus. I am not saying that. I do believe in personal holiness. out.
You said the LAW WAS ENMITY. I don't understand how im saying this or that.

Romans 8 shows us the mind is against Yahweh's Law....

Romans 8:6-8, "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."

All I did was post some Scripture and ask if

1. All has been fulfilled.

2. Heaven and earth has passed.

3. All has been perfected.

Since the Messiah says these must be before anything in the Law is done away I thought this was pretty straight forward, seems I was wrong in thinking it is straight forward.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,709
6,307
113
#15
I did not say the law of commandments was emity the BIBLE says that. Paul said that. this is why I will speak to you no more. all you do is twist. you did the poll to prove YOUR points not to get honest beliefs. good day to you.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#17
I did not say the law of commandments was emity the BIBLE says that. Paul said that. this is why I will speak to you no more. all you do is twist. you did the poll to prove YOUR points not to get honest beliefs. good day to you.
Ephesians does not call the Law enmity.... I understand people interpret things in different ways....

About the poll, He said unless heaven and earth passes, unless all things are perfected, so im super evil for asking if these things have happened? and pointing out if they have not then the Law is not done away.... I don;t understand how that is true or logical.

Romans 7:

7 What? Can anyone therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet.

12 Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#18
again and again of this Law thing. LoL
Since the "mystery of iniquity" is taking the world I believe its an important topic.

2 Thessalonians 2:7, "For the mystery of iniquity is already working, but the One restraining him will continue to restrain him, until he is made to appear in the midst. And then that lawless one will be revealed, whom Yahshua will remove with the breath of His mouth, and make powerless with the appearance of His coming-- Whose coming is according to the energy of Satan..."
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#19
This is crazy, its very simple IMO.

either all has been fulfilled or has not yet

either heaven and earth have passed or they have not yet

either all things have been perfected or they have not yet
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#20
So "Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law"

So.....Heaven and earth passing had nothing to do with it? Why would He say, unless?
It says it would be EASIER for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one tittle of the law to fail.

It would be easier for heaven and earth to fail than for the OT law to fail to accomplish its purpose. The OT law did accomplish its purpose and taken out of the way. Mt 5:18 shows every jot and tittle remains in effect until it (OT) is fulfilled....which it was. Mt 5:18 does NOT say heaven and earth must pass before the OT law can be fulfilled, this idea is being read into the verse.
 
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