OSAS true or false?

[InSpiritInTruth]

Many believe in the "Once saved always saved" doctrine, but I know by scripture this doctrine is false, and is nothing more than wishful thinking. This doctrine is not only contrary to scripture, but it also denies one of the major prophecies concerning the times we are living in right now. And that prophecy is of the "falling away" from the faith and the Truth according to the words of God.

I know this can be hot topic for people, so please keep it civil. Also please provide scripture to prove your points, as I will also start with these verses here in Hebrews 6:4-6 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

What are your thoughts on this subject?

 

[Butch5]

Many believe in the "Once saved always saved" doctrine, but I know by scripture this doctrine is false, and is nothing more than wishful thinking. This doctrine is not only contrary to scripture, but it also denies one of the major prophecies concerning the times we are living in right now. And that prophecy is of the "falling away" from the faith and the Truth according to the words of God.

I know this can be hot topic for people, so please keep it civil. Also please provide scripture to prove your points, as I will also start with these verses here in Hebrews 6:4-6 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

What are your thoughts on this subject?

What you're going to get is a bunch of fallacious arguments that are based on an improper and illogical reasoning methodology

 

[AtonedFor]

Since everyone here knows my thoughts re: OSAS is from the pits of hell,
I would like to add that it is very easy to see how ...
this doctrine has been favored by most churches over the years!

Church has been a much more popular place for people to attend and
give their money to ... when there are NO real demands placed upon them!

In addition, Satan is greatest liar and deceiver in the history of the world,
as well as being "the god/ruler of this world/age" (John 12:31, 2 Cor 4:4).

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

What you're going to get is a bunch of fallacious arguments that are based on an improper and illogical reasoning methodology

Your probably right about that. lol

 

[Sophia]

I will pray that Christ grants you all security in your salvation, and right motive for pursuing righteousness.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I will pray that Christ grants you all security in your salvation, and right motive for pursuing righteousness.

Thanks for your prayers Sophia.

 

[crossnote]

Many believe in the "Once saved always saved" doctrine, but I know by scripture this doctrine is false, and is nothing more than wishful thinking. This doctrine is not only contrary to scripture, but it also denies one of the major prophecies concerning the times we are living in right now. And that prophecy is of the "falling away" from the faith and the Truth according to the words of God.

I know this can be hot topic for people, so please keep it civil. Also please provide scripture to prove your points, as I will also start with these verses here in Hebrews 6:4-6 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

What are your thoughts on this subject?

Finishing the passage...

Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Ezekiel 18:24
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

 

[Karraster]

I believe in OSAS....when it finally happens! I believe we are currently begotten again into a lively hope..and that we are not "saved" yet, not until that day we trade corruptible for incorruptible.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Ezekiel 33:12
Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

 

[AtonedFor]

Hebrews 6:9
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Beware ... Paul is always persuaded of better things for (and of) you! ... Always!
As in ... think the best of, sure hope for, and etc.

He lays the big hammer of threats upon you, and then throws in something like:
"but youse guys would never do such and such ... so as to end up in hell".

Dis is commonly referred to as encouragement, edification, exhortation, etc.,
which I believe Jesus taught him during his 17 years of training in the desert regions!
HUH, what!

Of course the problem is:
you must be assuming that Paul is a big-time prophet who sees the future!

Or has the Holy Spirit told him:
"Hey, no sweat, all of your church members are good to go.
Be-est thou persuaded that all of dem will waltz into Heaven."

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I believe in OSAS....when it finally happens! I believe we are currently begotten again into a lively hope..and that we are not "saved" yet, not until that day we trade corruptible for incorruptible.

By grace you are saved through faith, but what happens if you fall away from that faith?

 

[john832]

I believe in OSAS....when it finally happens! I believe we are currently begotten again into a lively hope..and that we are not "saved" yet, not until that day we trade corruptible for incorruptible.

Excellent understanding!

 

[john832]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Karraster again.

 

[SeaBass]

Many believe in the "Once saved always saved" doctrine, but I know by scripture this doctrine is false, and is nothing more than wishful thinking. This doctrine is not only contrary to scripture, but it also denies one of the major prophecies concerning the times we are living in right now. And that prophecy is of the "falling away" from the faith and the Truth according to the words of God.

I know this can be hot topic for people, so please keep it civil. Also please provide scripture to prove your points, as I will also start with these verses here in Hebrews 6:4-6 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

What are your thoughts on this subject?

One thing about this passage, Heb 6:6 in the kJV it is rendered "If they shall fall away". The KJV shows possibility or potential of them falling away.

Yet other modern English versions render this verse as:

and then have fallen away ESV
and then have fallen away NASB
and having fallen away YLT

According to this BibleHub link below on Heb 6:6::

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/6-6.htm

The verb "fallen" is aorist participle active. So it's more than they could "potentially" fall away but they have already fallen away. Something not possible if OSAS is true.

 

[forsha]

Many believe in the "Once saved always saved" doctrine, but I know by scripture this doctrine is false, and is nothing more than wishful thinking. This doctrine is not only contrary to scripture, but it also denies one of the major prophecies concerning the times we are living in right now. And that prophecy is of the "falling away" from the faith and the Truth according to the words of God.

I know this can be hot topic for people, so please keep it civil. Also please provide scripture to prove your points, as I will also start with these verses here in Hebrews 6:4-6 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

What are your thoughts on this subject?

First and foremost the doctrine of Christ does not contradict itself. The falling away is not referring to falling away from eternal life, but of falling away from their relationship with God. To keep the scriptures from contradicting you have to understand that "salvation" by the Greek translation means "a deliverance". Most of the salvation scriptures are referring to deliverances we experience as we live our lives here in this world. Jesus's blood was effective in cleansing the sins past, present and future, of all those that God gave him and none of them will fall away from the security of their eternal salvation (deliverance).

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

It's not a question of if they could possibly fall away, but when they would in fact fall away as prophesied by Paul, Peter and Jesus. Paul spoke of a falling away first and "that man" of sin being revealed. Paul was referring to the parable Jesus spoke here concerning "that man" and his last state; who was symbolic of a whole wicked generation that would fall away from the faith.

Matthew 12:43-45[SUP]43 [/SUP]When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

It's not a question of if they could possibly fall away, but when they would in fact fall away as prophesied by Paul, Peter and Jesus. Paul spoke of a falling away first and "that man" of sin being revealed. Paul was referring to the parable Jesus spoke here concerning "that man" and his last state; who was symbolic of a whole wicked generation that would fall away from the faith.

Matthew 12:43-45[SUP]43 [/SUP]When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Compare the testimony of Peter to the Lords above. 2 Peter 2:20-22[SUP]20 [/SUP]For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[oldhermit]

The Hebrew writer describes both the prior and latter states of those who had fallen away.
A.Their prior state - These had:

1. Been enlightened.
2. Had tasted the heavenly gift. (The word for tasted is γευσαμένους which means to experience. This is the same word that is used in 2:9 saying, Jesus "tasted" death for everyone. This is not a mere limited sampling, this is an embracing of the full experience.
3. Been made partakers of the Holy Spirit. These has received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who serves as the Christian's seal of divine ownership.
4. Tasted the good word of God.

B. Present state - They have "fallen away." From what then have they fallen?

1. An enlightened state.
2. The experience of the heavenly gift.
3. The partaking or sharing of the Holy Spirit.
4. The good word of God.
5. They have crucified Christ all over again. Like those of 10:26-31, these have "trampled under foot the Son of God and regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he WAS sanctified" (passed tense). In other words these now regard the blood that had once sanctified them as nothing more than the proverbial hog slaughtered on the altar.

C. The impossible dilemma - It is now impossible to renew them again to repentance. Why? Because they have fallen away from the very thing that brought them to repentance in the first place which was the word of God. It is now impossible to restore them to repentance. One cannot be RE-newed AGAIN to a state they have never occupied. Thus, having once been saved and then having fallen away, they cannot be brought back because they will no longer repent. This is of course representing the extreme case.
D. Their fate. Like the ground that yields thistles and thorns, they are cursed and they end up being burned. Just like those of 10:26-31, whose fate is to fall into the hands of a vengeful God who says, "I will repay." The parabolic illustration come out of Matthew 13:20-21, Mark 4:16-17, and Luke 8:13. They are worthless to the purposes of God and God discards them.

1. The writer is not saying they claimed to have tasted, but presents a statement of fact - "They had tasted." They had returned to the law. These had previously left the law in response to the gospel. Now, they are rejecting the cross and going back to the law. This is the foundation they were "laying again."
2. This is not a question. There is no "if" in the Greek. It simply says, παραπεσόντας - literally "having fallen away". This is a statement of fact based on actual cases, not a what if scenario. This is an aorist, passive, accusative verb. They had fallen away at some time in the past and that condition continues. They are still fallen away.
3. Under the law, sin was not forgiven based on those sacrifices, but based on what those sacrifices represented - the cross. Leviticus chapters 4 and 5 show us that they were indeed forgiven under the law but, it was not by the law. Even David understood this. "How blessed is the man whose transgression is forgiven, whose sins are covered...to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity," Psalms 32:1-2. He also knew those sacrifices were not the avenue through which forgiveness came. "Thou dost not delight in sacrifice or I would bring it." Psalms 51:1-2.
4. The inability to renew again is not linked to a supposition of "IF" they were to fall away. The impossibility is linked to the fact that after having been saved they have rejected the cross, not the old sacrifices, and in so doing had shamed Christ openly.
5. The writer does not say they cannot be saved again. He says that cannot be brought back to repentance again. This certainly renders them unable to remain saved since there is no longer repentance. These had once been in a saved relationship. Now that relationship has been severed; not by Christ but by them.
6. He is not comparing the crucifying of Christ again to the repetitious offering of O.T. sacrifice. Those who had rejected and fallen away were considering Christ worthy of the crucifixion. They were rejecting him and his sacrifice. Like those of 10:29, they were considering the blood of Christ "BY WHICH THEY HAD BEEN SANCTIFIED" an unclean thing, and had insulted the Spirit of grace.
7. The writer's point is that these had been sanctified - made holy - something that all of the sacrifices of the O.T. combined could never do. In verse 29, he even draws a contrast between the one's of whom he is speaking and those who died under the law for rejecting Moses. They rejected the blood after having been cleansed by it are now worthy of greater punishment than those who were under the Law. Verse 30 shows their fate.

 

[john832]

False. Next.