Wisdom Christology: A Thorough Explanation and Defense of Trinitarianism

[wattie]

'the father is greater than I'

Jesus is not saying the Father is an ontologically superior being.. He is talking about His ascension to heaven to the disciples. Telling them that He is going to be in His rightful place with the Father. Jesus is saying the Father is in a greater position and Jesus will be in that position shortly.

(Luke 11:20) (Jesus speaking) But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

This is about as high a claim to complete divinity as you get.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Jesus is going unto the Father.. going to His rightful place.. encouraging the disciples

Anyway, enough from me

 

[livingbygrace]

'the father is greater than I'

Jesus is not saying the Father is an ontologically superior being.. He is talking about His ascension to heaven to the disciples. Telling them that He is going to be in His rightful place with the Father. Jesus is saying the Father is in a greater position and Jesus will be in that position shortly.

(Luke 11:20) (Jesus speaking) But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

This is about as high a claim to complete divinity as you get.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Jesus is going unto the Father.. going to His rightful place.. encouraging the disciples

Anyway, enough from me

But you are using human interpretation here. I repeat, please show me omewhere in the NT wehere any of the writers say Jesus is God the Father. The Apostle Paul said Jesus would be subject to the Father. Please read1Cor15:24-28. Do we know more than the Apostle Paul?

Can you receive authority from someone unless they are greater than you?

Then Jesus came to them and said, All authority in Heaven and on earth has been given to me. Matt28:18

When Jesus had returned to Heaven he said.

Just as I have received authority from my Father. Rev2:27

Jesus also said, once he had returned to Heaven.

Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of My God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of My God. and the name of the city of My God. the new Jerusalem which is coming down out of Heaven from My God. Rev3:12

I am just being honest here. All of the plainly written statements in the NT say that the Father is greater than the Son. You can say it is an equal Trinity, but in that there must be a heirarchy at the least. Human interpretation has to say that Jesus is God the Father, or that he is not subject to God the Father.

Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father. Does that not make Him divine?

But what aboput you he asked, who do you say I am?

Simon Peter answered. You are the Christ. The Son of the Living God.

Jesus replied. Blessed are you Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in Heaven. Matt1+6:17

You have to dismiss Jesus plainly spoken words, His Father's plainly spoken words and the Apostle Pauls plainly spoken words to believe as you do, and replace trhem with human reasoning

 

[BlackDove]

But you are using human interpretation here. I repeat, please show me omewhere in the NT wehere any of the writers say Jesus is God the Father. The Apostle Paul said Jesus would be subject to the Father. Please read1Cor15:24-28. Do we know more than the Apostle Paul?

Can you receive authority from someone unless they are greater than you?

Then Jesus came to them and said, All authority in Heaven and on earth has been given to me. Matt28:18

When Jesus had returned to Heaven he said.

Just as I have received authority from my Father. Rev2:27

Jesus also said, once he had returned to Heaven.

Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of My God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of My God. and the name of the city of My God. the new Jerusalem which is coming down out of Heaven from My God. Rev3:12

I am just being honest here. All of the plainly written statements in the NT say that the Father is greater than the Son. You can say it is an equal Trinity, but in that there must be a heirarchy at the least. Human interpretation has to say that Jesus is God the Father, or that he is not subject to God the Father.

Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father. Does that not make Him divine?

But what aboput you he asked, who do you say I am?

Simon Peter answered. You are the Christ. The Son of the Living God.

Jesus replied. Blessed are you Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in Heaven. Matt1+6:17

You have to dismiss Jesus plainly spoken words, His Father's plainly spoken words and the Apostle Pauls plainly spoken words to believe as you do, and replace trhem with human reasoning

Lol dude, just attend the Bible study, please! D : It will answer everything you're talking about here. Some of your points I agree on (i.e. that Jesus is not "God the Father", since He is God's Son), but there still needs to be some clarifications made. If you're not interested in learning though, it'd probably be best to just stop arguing here.

 

[livingbygrace]

Lol dude, just attend the Bible study, please! D : It will answer everything you're talking about here. Some of your points I agree on (i.e. that Jesus is not "God the Father", since He is God's Son), but there still needs to be some clarifications made. If you're not interested in learning though, it'd probably be best to just stop arguing here.

If your not interested in learning though

I admire your humility!

 

[BlackDove]

If your not interested in learning though

I admire your humility!

Lol well I did start this thread to teach people something... so you're saying anyone who teaches is therefore prideful, because they feel they can impart knowledge on to someone who doesn't have it? I don't see anything prideful about teaching something you can clearly see other people don't know about for their benefit.

All I'm saying is if you want to keep an open mind, hear what I have to say, and work out the details from there, that would be fantastic! But if you're unwilling to do that (i.e. "not interested in learning"), then well... I believe you're just hear to argue an opinion without considering that you might be wrong, which isn't very commendable.

If for some reason you can't make it but want to hear what I have to say, then I'll work something out through text for you. But if you don't want to come and hear what I have to say, then I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you, because you've already made up your mind.

 

[livingbygrace]

Lol well I did start this thread to teach people something... so you're saying anyone who teaches is therefore prideful, because they feel they can impart knowledge on to someone who doesn't have it? I don't see anything prideful about teaching something you can clearly see other people don't know about for their benefit.

All I'm saying is if you want to keep an open mind, hear what I have to say, and work out the details from there, that would be fantastic! But if you're unwilling to do that (i.e. "not interested in learning"), then well... I believe you're just hear to argue an opinion without considering that you might be wrong, which isn't very commendable.

If for some reason you can't make it but want to hear what I have to say, then I'll work something out through text for you. But if you don't want to come and hear what I have to say, then I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you, because you've already made up your mind.

Is it therefore commendable if you do not admit you may be wrong?

I have already said I can accept an equal Trinity with a heirarchy in that. That doesn't seem too far away from your opinion anyway.

I mean no offence to you at all, but I am sceptical when people say they can teach others on a certain subject concerning the Bible.

There are many differring opinions on the Trinity, I have learnt that lately on another Christian website. I am happy with my belief and will leave you to discuss with others.

 

[BlackDove]

Is it therefore commendable if you do not admit you may be wrong?

I have already said I can accept an equal Trinity with a heirarchy in that. That doesn't seem too far away from your opinion anyway.

I mean no offence to you at all, but I am sceptical when people say they can teach others on a certain subject concerning the Bible.

There are many differring opinions on the Trinity, I have learnt that lately on another Christian website. I am happy with my belief and will leave you to discuss with others.

As human beings, we're all wrong from time to time; I think we can agree on that, yes? Under that notion, one should consider that no matter how grounded they are in an opinion, there is the very real possibility that one could be wrong or delusioned, no matter how certain you feel you may be. Therefore I find it is most constructive to approach arguments in that sort of mindset, for your own benefit.

Now I am extremely grounded in my opinions and beliefs, as I'm sure you are... and I certainly do not believe I am wrong, or else I would not be willing to teach my opinion. But when push comes to shove and it comes down to debate time... then you adopt the open mindset. If no one does that, no one learns or grows in debate.

And yes, you should be skeptical when people try and teach from the Bible. But you also should hear them out instead of assuming they're just another crack-pot (not saying you're doing that), because you can't know for certain until you hear what they're saying.

But yeah, if you're happy to leave me to discuss it with others, that's fine too. I wish you the best! : )

 

[iliveforHim]

Haha, gotta love the trolls. Proverbs 18:2 all the way. xD

I appreciate the rebuttals, but the question still stands: Are you guys up for a Bible study? If anyone else wants to debate whether Jesus is God or attack the integrity of the Trinity, we can do it in a live discussion, as I did not start this thread with the intention of such a thing. Just trying to organize an event : )

Hi BlackDove,

I definitely need to learn so much more! I would love to join! I'm working from my computer on Friday night and it'll get very busy, but I WILL absolutely attend, as my work allows.

Thank you for coming up with this idea, let me know if it's a go...

Ingrid

 

[iliveforHim]

You have to be more stupid than stupid to believe that Jesus Christ is God.
Did you rip out all the verses in your Bible that say Jesus was the Son of God?

Mr. Mark,

How dare you call any one in this Chat room any names! Your actions are very rude, disrespectful and I do not appreciate them. You really should apologize to everyone here for being so offensive, specially to BlackDove.

 

[joint-heir]

LETS PUT IT LIKE THIS

YOU CANNOT

1. GO TO HEAVEN
2. DEFEAT SATAN
3. BE SAVED
4. RECIEVE THE HOLY GHOST
5. WALK IN THE SPIRIT
6. BECOME RIGHTEOUS
7. HEAL THE SICK
8. CAST OUT DEMONS
9. PERFORM GODLY MIRACLES
10. BRING OTHERS TO SALVATION
11. LIVE IN GRACE
12. UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE's TRUE MEANING
13. BE LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT
14. KNOW GOD
15. UNDERSTAND GODs WILL FOR YOU
16. BE VICTORIOUS
17. BECOME AN JOINT-HEIR
18. BECOME A PART OF THE TRUE CHURCH AND BRIDE
19. WALK IN TRUE FAITH
20. WEAR THE ARMOUR OF GOD
AND SOOOOOOO MUCH MORE
UNTIL
YOU FIND AND ACCEPT AND BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST

SO THINK AS YOU WISH
BUT
UNTIL YOU FIND JESUS AND GO THRU HIM
NOTHING CAN BE ACCOMPLISHED
FOR IN FACT
YOU CANNOT PRAY TO THE FATHER OR HOLY GHOST TO RECEIVE SALVATION

COLOSSIANS 2:9 IN JESUS WE FIND THE FATHER-WORD-HOLY GHOST THE COMPLETE GODHEAD IN HIM
SO UNTIL YOU GO TO JESUS
YOU CANNOT BE SAVED ......... PERIOD

JESUS IS GOD..........BOTTOM LINE..........NO QUESTIONS ASKED..........HANDS DOWN

JESUS CHRIST IS GOD
ISAIAH 9:6 CALLS HIM
WONDERFUL, COUNSELOR, MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, THE PRINCE OF PEACE

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS AND GOD ALMIGHTY JEHOVA THE GREAT I AM
THIS IS
JESUS CHRIST
MY GOD
AND GOD OF ALL AND ALL IN ALL

 

[BlackDove]

Thanks Ingrid! I'll look forward to seeing you there! : D

Lol and don't worry about that guy, he got banned.

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

You have to be more stupid than stupid to believe that Jesus Christ is God.
Did you rip out all the verses in your Bible that say Jesus was the Son of God?

John Chapter 1 "In the begining was the word, the word was with God, the word was God..."

I don't see a problem with someone referring to Jesus as God. God certainly doesn't. If He had then why would God share His throne with Christ? Not only that but God has given all things unto Christ. Scripture says that when we die, we will not be judged by God but by Christ, the author and finisher of our faith.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in Trinity. However, the Father, the Son and the Spirit operate as one - in one mind and in one accord. There is absolutely nothing that can come between them. Many may disagree with this statement but to worship one is to worship them all, they do nothing apart from one another.

 

[livingbygrace]

LETS PUT IT LIKE THIS

YOU CANNOT

1. GO TO HEAVEN
2. DEFEAT SATAN
3. BE SAVED
4. RECIEVE THE HOLY GHOST
5. WALK IN THE SPIRIT
6. BECOME RIGHTEOUS
7. HEAL THE SICK
8. CAST OUT DEMONS
9. PERFORM GODLY MIRACLES
10. BRING OTHERS TO SALVATION
11. LIVE IN GRACE
12. UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE's TRUE MEANING
13. BE LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT
14. KNOW GOD
15. UNDERSTAND GODs WILL FOR YOU
16. BE VICTORIOUS
17. BECOME AN JOINT-HEIR
18. BECOME A PART OF THE TRUE CHURCH AND BRIDE
19. WALK IN TRUE FAITH
20. WEAR THE ARMOUR OF GOD
AND SOOOOOOO MUCH MORE
UNTIL
YOU FIND AND ACCEPT AND BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST

SO THINK AS YOU WISH
BUT
UNTIL YOU FIND JESUS AND GO THRU HIM
NOTHING CAN BE ACCOMPLISHED
FOR IN FACT
YOU CANNOT PRAY TO THE FATHER OR HOLY GHOST TO RECEIVE SALVATION

COLOSSIANS 2:9 IN JESUS WE FIND THE FATHER-WORD-HOLY GHOST THE COMPLETE GODHEAD IN HIM
SO UNTIL YOU GO TO JESUS
YOU CANNOT BE SAVED ......... PERIOD

JESUS IS GOD..........BOTTOM LINE..........NO QUESTIONS ASKED..........HANDS DOWN

JESUS CHRIST IS GOD
ISAIAH 9:6 CALLS HIM
WONDERFUL, COUNSELOR, MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, THE PRINCE OF PEACE

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS AND GOD ALMIGHTY JEHOVA THE GREAT I AM
THIS IS
JESUS CHRIST
MY GOD
AND GOD OF ALL AND ALL IN ALL

Well with my views I have been baptised in the Holy Spirit, as a well known minister verified.

As for your points 7,8,9 and ten, I couldn't do any of those things anyway, thety can only be done by the Holy Spirit

 

[joint-heir]

Well with my views I have been baptised in the Holy Spirit, as a well known minister verified.

As for your points 7,8,9 and ten, I couldn't do any of those things anyway, thety can only be done by the Holy Spirit

Peter said in ACTS 2:38
to be baptised in JESUS is to be baptised in the HOLY SPIRIT

YOU
seem like a good person
JUST
definitely confused
BUT
we are all like this
UNTIL
we find the TRUTH

 

[joint-heir]

Well with my views I have been baptised in the Holy Spirit, as a well known minister verified.

As for your points 7,8,9 and ten, I couldn't do any of those things anyway, thety can only be done by the Holy Spirit

And to be able to get to the points of 7, 8, 9, and 10
YOU
must FIRST
accept JESUS then the gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT will be added as you grow and believe.
BUT
it all begins with JESUS

 

[joint-heir]

Well with my views I have been baptised in the Holy Spirit, as a well known minister verified.

As for your points 7,8,9 and ten, I couldn't do any of those things anyway, thety can only be done by the Holy Spirit

And I might be weary of your minister then
He
is skipping steps
and that is
FALSE DOCTRINE
IF
he trully is preaching this


for to be baptised in WATER
is for remissions of sins same as COVERED by BLOOD of JESUS
to be baptised in HOLY GHOST
is praying thru and generally the evidence
is speaking in unknown tongues