God In The Holocaust

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WebersHome

Senior Member
Dec 9, 2014
1,940
32
0
#1
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January 27 is the official United Nations date for remembering the Holocaust;
but honestly; if I were a Jew, I would much prefer the world not draw
attention to my dirty laundry. Let me explain.

One has to ask, in point of fact there has been more than one rabbi ask:
How is it that so many of Yhvh's people were caught up in the Holocaust?
Where was God during all that? Why didn't He step in and do something to
protect His chosen people?

To find an answer to that question one need look no further than Ex 34:6-7,
Lev 26:3-38, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:1-69. In other words: the Jews,
as a people, brought it on themselves in accordance with the covenant that
their ancestors agreed upon with God as per Deut 29:9-15.

A covenant is essentially a contract. Well; if God were to fail to fulfill His end
of the agreement; then He would be in breach of contract; which is not only
unethical, but also uncivil. Long story short: the covenant requires Him to
lower the boom on His people for failure to honor their end of the
agreement; and you can see the extent of the damage for yourself in the
scripture references in the above paragraph. There are numerous blessings
that God is contractually obligated to fulfill too; so the covenant isn't all one
sided; viz: compliance with the covenant accrues blessings; while breaching
the covenant accrues curses. Anybody who has read the Old Testament can
attest that God came down on His own people quite often for breaching the
covenant; and just as often quite cruelly. The curses that Lev 26:3-38, Deut
27:15-26, and Deut 28:1-69 list are very disturbing; and when examining
them, one cannot help but realize they're reading a synopsis of Israel's
history.

You know; the status of God's chosen people has its advantages; but also its
disadvantages; viz: the status of God's chosen people is not something to be
proud of; but rather, something to be afraid of because the covenant's God
is not the kind of judge influenced by favoritism. No; if anything, Yhvh's
people run the risk of being judged even more severely than Gentiles
because of their privileged position and the insider's knowledge they were
given of His likes and dislikes.

†. Amos 3:1-2 . . Hear this word that Yhvh has spoken against you, O
children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land
of Egypt, saying: You only have I known of all the families of the earth:
therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

FAQ: Is the world supposed to believe it was the Jews' own fault that they
were rounded up like cattle, stripped of their dignity, their property, their
wealth, and their possessions, enslaved, starved, deprived of basic human
necessities, tortured, subjected to Frankensteinian medical experiments,
worked to death, and gassed, shot, and incinerated by the millions?

A: If the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Deut
29:9-15 is binding; then yes; the Jews, as a people, are definitely at fault
for what happened to them. There's really no mystery to this: it's all laid out
in black and white at Lev 26:14-38, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:15-69.

It's okay to pity the Jews; but I am confident that letting them off the hook
would make God look unreliable at honoring His commitments. No; when
God makes an agreement with somebody; he keeps it. Human beings can't
be trusted to keep their word; but you will never find God breaking His.

Supposing I'm right; that there is no one to blame for the loss of Jewish life
in the Holocaust but the Jews themselves? If so; then how many of them
would've had to breach the covenant to put them all in so much danger?

Well; you'd be surprised how few Jews it takes to ruin it for all the rest. For
example the incident at Ai in the 7th chapter of Joshua. The insubordination
of one insignificant Jewish man— just one —caused God to stop assisting
Joshua's army in battle. As a result, 36 men were needlessly killed in action;
and ultimately capital punishment was inflicted upon not only the
insubordinate man himself, but also his sons and his daughters. God's
accusation? "Israel has sinned" (Josh 7:11)

See that? God didn't accuse the perpetrator; no; He accused Israel. In other
words: in that particular incident; the sin of just one Jew under Joshua's
command became the sin of all the Jews under his command; viz: the whole
kit and caboodle— lock, stock, and barrel; and Israel could proceed no
further with its conquest of Canaan until the guilty man was executed.

In another Old Testament incident; God lowered the boom on 70,000 Jews.
What did they do to deserve it? Absolutely nothing. The insubordination of
just one Jewish man caused their deaths. King David breached the covenant
that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Deut 29:9-15 by taking a
census. As a result; those 70,000 Jews went to their deaths through no fault
of their own; it was all on David.

I can't imagine what just one Jew would have to do in order to bring about
the deaths of six million of his fellows; but if a whole bunch of them
throughout Europe were breaching the covenant all at the same time, I
guess that could become a sort of force-multiplier.

That's pretty scary when you think about it because more than 50% of the
Jews living in the State of Israel right now today are hiloni (secular). In my
estimation, that's easily enough insubordinate Jews all in one place for God
to justify bringing down the whole country; and then if you combine those
with the number of insubordinate Jews around the rest of the world,
including the USA; now you can appreciate just how insecure Israel's future
really is. In point of fact, that might help explain why Israel hasn't had a
moment's peace; but instead has been in a constant state of war since its
inception back in 1948.

Another possibility is that the generation caught by the Holocaust, was
caught not only due to their own breaches of the covenant, but also due to
breaches committed by generations preceding them.

†. Ex 34:6-7 . . Then Yhvh passed by in front of Moses and proclaimed:
Yhvh, Yhvh God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding
in loving-kindness and truth; who keeps loving-kindness for thousands, who
forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the
guilty unpunished: visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the
grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.

That statement, by the way, is included in the covenant that Yhvh agreed
upon as per Deut 29:9-15, so God is morally obligated to honor it lest He be
found in breach of contract. But it just goes to show that sins have a way of
snow-balling from one generation to the next till the snowball is so big that it
triggers an act of God; which is really scary because it tells me that it's not
impossible for next Holocaust to take place right inside the Jews' own
homeland. I sincerely believe that Saddam Hussein's SCUDS were a wake-up
call. Next time; incoming missiles just may contain nuclear warheads instead
of high explosives; and Jacob's people will be poisoned to death with
radiation instead of pesticide.

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Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#2
I love the Jewish people, but for sure they have reaped the reward of that fateful day when they cried..."Let his blood be upon us and our children!"
 

JimmieD

Senior Member
Apr 11, 2014
895
18
18
#3

How is it that so many of Yhvh's people were caught up in the Holocaust?


I would have said because they were living in Germany, Poland, France, and Austria.

Where was God during all that? Why didn't He step in and do something to
protect His chosen people?
The Jews in in the US, Canada, the UK, and elsewhere seemed to be fine. How do those Jews fit into your narrative? Why didn't they get the same supposed-punishment from God that the Jews in Germany did?
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
#4
I saw an interesting observation a few days ago concerning the Jews in Germany...

The optimists went to Auschwitz and the pessimists went to Ney York.
 

WebersHome

Senior Member
Dec 9, 2014
1,940
32
0
#5
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The Jews in in the US, Canada, the UK, and elsewhere seemed to be fine.
How do those Jews fit into your narrative? Why didn't they get the same
supposed-punishment from God that the Jews in Germany did?
Germany's Jews weren't the only Jews taken in the Holocaust. They were
rounded up from quite a number of places; e.g. Greece, Yugoslavia,
Hungary, Lithuania, Bohemia, the Netherlands, Slovakia, Latvia, Belgium,
Romania, Luxembourg, Norway, Estonia, Soviet Union, France, Italy, Poland,
Austria, and also Italian Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Iraq, Japan, and
even some from China.

To answer your question: It has never been God's wishes that all of Yhvh's
people be destroyed; just enough to make an impression. Sad to say, it was
dumb luck for the ones taken. In other words: God needed some skulls and
those taken were just simply convenient.

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JimmieD

Senior Member
Apr 11, 2014
895
18
18
#6
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Germany's Jews weren't the only Jews taken in the Holocaust. They were
rounded up from quite a number of places; e.g. Greece, Yugoslavia,
Hungary, Lithuania, Bohemia, the Netherlands, Slovakia, Latvia, Belgium,
Romania, Luxembourg, Norway, Estonia, Soviet Union, France, Italy, Poland,
Austria, and also Italian Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Iraq, Japan, and
even some from China.


Of course, this misses my point entirely. The point is that you only have a subset of the population of interest receiving the supposed collective punishment from God. It's not really collective punishment at all by your theory because the facts don't fit your narrative.

To answer your question: It has never been God's wishes that all of Yhvh's
people be destroyed; just enough to make an impression. Sad to say, it was
dumb luck for the ones taken. In other words: God needed some skulls and
those taken were just simply convenient.
This is different from what you said in your initial post, so it appears that you're just making up the narrative as you go along and altering in here and there when problems arise. But beyond that, rather than solve the issue in your response, you've only created new ones.
 

WebersHome

Senior Member
Dec 9, 2014
1,940
32
0
#7
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The point is that you only have a subset of the population of interest
receiving the supposed collective punishment from God. It's not really
collective punishment at all by your theory because the facts don't fit your
narrative.
Take for example the 70-year Babylonian captivity that God allowed to
happen to His people for the nation's past breaches of the covenant. Not all
the Jews were taken. Quite a few were left behind to live in the land. In your
mind's eye, only a "subset" as you call it was punished for the nation's sins.
But that's the way God has always done it with Yhvh's people. You'll just have
to find some way to reconcile yourself to His way of meting out the Jews'
punishment because it's not going to change.

NOTE: In matters like holocausts and Babylonian captivities; we're talking about
punishing a nation rather than punishing individuals. Maybe that's where you're
getting confused.

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Karraster

Guest
#8
Don't be like Balaam. Jews won't be the only ones judged.
 
P

psychomom

Guest
#9
i seem to always point this out, but Jews were not the only people targeted by the Nazis....
 

JimmieD

Senior Member
Apr 11, 2014
895
18
18
#10
i seem to always point this out, but Jews were not the only people targeted by the Nazis....
Yep, another minor detail that doesn't fit the OP's narrative.
 
Jan 2, 2015
149
3
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#11
I love the Jewish people, but for sure they have reaped the reward of that fateful day when they cried..."Let his blood be upon us and our children!"
Yes I agree...Though God is still dealing with Israel ( both natural and spiritual )

yes many others beside Jews were targeted...(dont quote me but..) about 23 million Russians..4 million Europeans..6 million germans were killed the totals may never really be known as so many non combatants were terminated , whether by mistake or racial doctrine etc...etc..

ps most JEWS ( even in Christ time ) were/are a mix breed from Babylon,Persia etc something God forbade .
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
#12
So God caused the holocaust? This is why Jews have been murdered for centuries.Christians have been "helping" God by punishing and murdering Jews. Catholics began blood libels and the rest of the churches have persecuted the Jews too.Its a bunch of nonsense. It how Hitler killed 6million Jews, the Christ killers.Same old racism,same old story.
 
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Kaycie

Guest
#14
The Jews are no longer God's people by physical means, they must be adopted through baptism into Christ like the rest of us. (John 1:13). Perhaps they were punished for denying that Jesus has come in the flesh. (1 John 4:2). Maybe their persecution was like aftershocks from once being God's people. Or maybe they were simply victims of an evil dictator. Whatever the case, there sure was the worst case ever. It comes back to why does God let anyone suffer at the hands of evil men? His own Son suffered at the hands of evil men, and Christ says blessed are you when men persecute YOU because of Me. I highlighted 'you' because the blessing He spoke of is for those in Christ- not for those who deny Christ. (again 1 John 4:2).
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
#15


Really? How did you come up with that idea? I'm very curious to know.

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God was punishing the Jews,is that not your belief? You said they brought it on themselves.Or is that not your view?
 

WebersHome

Senior Member
Dec 9, 2014
1,940
32
0
#16
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God was punishing the Jews,is that not your belief? You said they brought it
on themselves. Or is that not your view?
Okay; I see where my choice of words is a bit misleading. Sorry about that.
I'll try to clarify my position.

God stood by and did nothing to prevent a number of His own people being
taken in the Holocaust. In other words: the thing that they brought upon
themselves was the loss of God's providence.

The covenant Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Deut 29:9-15
obligates Him to protect them from misfortune when they're compliant with
it; but the same covenant also obligates God to throw them to the wolves
when they're not compliant with it. I think God took advantage of Mr. Hitler's
agenda as a convenient means of throwing His people to the wolves.

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