Did the LORD Violate Human Free Will???

[ForthAngel]

You posted (my emp) "And because God operates within the hearts of men causing them voluntarily, without external constraint to do as he wills, he is not violating their free will in the Biblical sense."

"Causing" and "voluntarily" do not go together. Someone on another forum use to tell me one has free will to choose what God makes him choose....which is not free will at all.

How can it be said on one hand "God causes" but then on the other hand say it's "without external constraint"?

If God 'causes' that is external constraint and man is not choosing of HIS own free will but God is forcing HIS choice upon man.

Free will would be man making his own choice between at least two or more options. What you say above is God forcing His own one choice upon man with man having no two or options to choose from for himself. So if a man murdered someone, it was not his own free will choice but what God "caused" him to do.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Ah, Assyria, the rod of my anger;
the staff in their hands is my fury!
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Against a godless nation I send him,
and against the people of my wrath I command him,
to take spoil and seize plunder,
and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But he does not so intend,
and his heart does not so think;
but it is in his heart to destroy,
and to cut off nations not a few;

God here causes the Assyrian, based on the sin already in his heart, to go against Israel when the king had made no conscious choice, or even intended to go against them. In essence, God harnessed this man's sin and used it for His own purpose. This does not absolve this man from the guilt of the sin already born in his heart, nor did God violate this man's will in any way. He simply used what was already there for His own purpose.

 

[SeaBass]

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Ah, Assyria, the rod of my anger;
the staff in their hands is my fury!
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Against a godless nation I send him,
and against the people of my wrath I command him,
to take spoil and seize plunder,
and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But he does not so intend,
and his heart does not so think;
but it is in his heart to destroy,
and to cut off nations not a few;

God here causes the Assyrian, based on the sin already in his heart, to go against Israel when the king had made no conscious choice, or even intended to go against them. In essence, God harnessed this man's sin and used it for His own purpose. This does not absolve this man from the guilt of the sin already born in his heart, nor did God violate this man's will in any way. He simply used what was already there for His own purpose.

I do not see that God caused/forced the Assyrians against their will to go against them, but God allowed/permitted the Assyrians the opportunity and desire to go against them. A Hebraic idiom found throughout the OT is when an active verb is used to say God actively did some thing but in reality God allowed, permitted it to happen. Example, 2 Sam 24:1 compared to 1 Chron 21:1 where God is said to move David, but 1 Chron 21:1 shows God allowed/permitted Satan to move David.

 

[Elin]

You posted (my emp) "And because God operates within the hearts of men causing them voluntarily, without external constraint to do as he wills, he is not violating their free will in the Biblical sense."

"Causing" and "voluntarily" do not go together.

They most certainly do, for our wills are governed by our disposition, they do not choose in a vacuum.

God works in the disposition which governs the will, which freely chooses according to its disposition.

We are discussing the meaning of free will in the Bible, not in philosophy.

 

[forsha]

How much "free will" do men actually have?

Did the LORD violate Rebekah's "free will" in grantingEliezer's prayer?

10 And the servant took ten camels, of the camels of his master, and departed, 1having all goodly things of his master’s in his hand: and he arose, and went to 2Mesopotamia, unto the city of Nahor. 11 And he made the camels to kneel down without the city by the well of water at the time of evening, the time that women go out to draw water. 12 And he said, O Jehovah, the God of my master Abraham, send me, I pray thee, good speed this day, and show kindness unto my master Abraham. 13 Behold, I am standing by the fountain of water; and the daughters of the men of the city are coming out to draw water: 14 and let it come to pass, that the damsel to whom I shall say, Let down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink; and
she shall say, Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also: let the same be she that thou hast appointed for thy servant Isaac; and thereby shall I know that thou hast showed kindness unto my master. 15 And it came to pass, before he had done speaking, that, behold, Rebekah came out, who was born to Bethuel the son of Milcah, the wife of Nahor, Abraham’s brother, with her pitcher upon her shoulder. 16 And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her: and she went down to the fountain, and filled her pitcher, and came up. 17 And the servant ran to meet her, and said, Give me to drink, I pray thee, a little water from thy pitcher. 18 And she said, Drink, my lord: and she hasted, and let down her pitcher upon her hand, and gave him drink. 19 And when she had done giving him drink, she said, I will draw for thy camels also, until they have done drinking.

Did the LORD violate the prophet's will every time a prophet prophesied?

2 Pet 1

21 For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit.


18 Now David fled, and escaped, and came to Samuel to Ramah, and told him all that Saul had done to him. And he and Samuel went and dwelt in Naioth. 19 And it was told Saul, saying, Behold, David is at Naioth in Ramah. 20 And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as head over them, the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied. 21 And when it was told Saul, he sent other messengers, and they also prophesied. And Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they also prophesied. 22 Then went he also to Ramah, and came to the great 5well that is in Secu: and he asked and said, Where are Samuel and David? And one said, Behold, they are at Naioth in Ramah. 23 And he went thither to Naioth in Ramah: and the Spirit of God came upon him also, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in Ramah. 24 And he also stripped off his clothes, and he also prophesied before Samuel, and 6lay down naked all that day and all that night. Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets?


IMHO, "lightly dressed." "naked" עָרוּם "2. lightly dressed (in under-garments only)" -- Halot Lexicon

I believe that the scriptures teach that man has a free will to choose matters that are of this world, but man does not have free will to choose spiritual things, like accepting Jesus, letting God save him eternally, etc. 1 Cor 2:39 says that the carnal man cannot discern spiritual things until he is already born of the Spirit, so eternal salvation is not of man, but by the grace of God.

 

[posthuman]

in the here and now i experience what we call free will - but looking backwards and forwards, i see predestination.
all the wrong things i have done, they seem like they were done by my free choice
all the good that has come of me, it appears i was predetermined to do.

 

[forsha]

Wise comment.
Many things are not yes vs no, but might be rated on a scale of 0-10 (there is much fallacious binary thinking).

Thus I ask, how much free will does a man have?
I don't understand how it is that God is sovereign, predicts a future sure to happen exactly as He says it will, and yet men make real decisions for which they are responsible, and men cause things to happen.

But I am impressed where the Lord does turn hearts as you say. The King's heart is in the hand of the Lord . . . He turns it withersoever He will.

Our God is an awesome God.

Heb 13:21, God makes you perfect in every good work, to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever.

 

[SeaBass]

They most certainly do, for our wills are governed by our disposition, they do not choose in a vacuum.

God works in the disposition which governs the will, which freely chooses according to its disposition.

We are discussing the meaning of free will in the Bible, not in philosophy.

If you are forced to do "A" then you are not voluntarily doing "A".

Freewill in the bible shows that man has the freedom to choose between two or more options and not forced to do one thing.

Josh 24:15 "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

They had the freewill option to either serve the false gods or the true Lord and not forced against their will to serve either.


You post "God works in the disposition which governs the will, which freely chooses according to its disposition."

THis is not free will where man chooses but man being forced to have whatever disposition God chooses for him.

 

[posthuman]

If you are forced to do "A" then you are not voluntarily doing "A".

Freewill in the bible shows that man has the freedom to choose between two or more options and not forced to do one thing.

Josh 24:15 "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

They had the freewill option to either serve the false gods or the true Lord and not forced against their will to serve either.

in all fairness, don't you think "choose this day whom you will serve" was a pretty heavily loaded statement under the circumstances it was spoken?

it's like if we were crossing the ocean, and had a spat, and you said to me "choose for yourself, you can swim 3,000 miles to the shore, or stay on the boat with me" -- more than a small bit rhetorical, don't you think?


yeah, you can choose to be an utter fool, but having knowledge of the truth, how free of a "choice" is that, honestly?

 

[SeaBass]

I believe that the scriptures teach that man has a free will to choose matters that are of this world, but man does not have free will to choose spiritual things, like accepting Jesus, letting God save him eternally, etc. 1 Cor 2:39 says that the carnal man cannot discern spiritual things until he is already born of the Spirit, so eternal salvation is not of man, but by the grace of God.

If man can choose among things of this world there is no reason why he cannot choose about spiritual matters. If man is able to choose to reject Christ he can use that same ability to choose to choose to accept Christ.

Rom 8:5 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."

Which ever you choose to set your mind to is what you follow. If you choose to mind things of the flesh you will follow after the flesh but if you choose to mind things of the spirit you will follow after spiritual things.

 

[ForthAngel]

If man can choose among things of this world there is no reason why he cannot choose about spiritual matters. If man is able to choose to reject Christ he can use that same ability to choose to choose to accept Christ.

Rom 8:5 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."

Which ever you choose to set your mind to is what you follow. If you choose to mind things of the flesh you will follow after the flesh but if you choose to mind things of the spirit you will follow after spiritual things.

Romans 8 makes a distinction between those already saved and those who aren't.

8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, [SUP]2 [/SUP]because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[SUP][c][/SUP] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, [SUP]4 [/SUP]in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


[SUP]5 [/SUP]Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. [SUP]6 [/SUP]The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. [SUP]7 [/SUP]The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Elin]

They most certainly do, for
our wills are governed by our disposition, they do not operate in a vacuum.

God works in the disposition which governs the will, which freely chooses according to its disposition.

We are discussing the meaning of free will in the Bible, not in philosophy.

If you are forced to do "A" then you are not voluntarily doing "A".

Agreed. . .but choosing to do it is not being forced to do it, because no external constraint is applied.

You're missing the nature of free will, it is the ability/power to choose what I prefer without external constraint.

Freewill in the bible shows that man has the freedom to choose between two or more options and
not forced to do one thing.

Agreed. . .he chooses to do what he prefers.

It's not about what he chooses, it's about desiring what he chooses, so that he chooses it freely.

Josh 24:15 "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

They had the freewill option to either serve the false gods or the true Lord and not forced against their will to serve either.


You post "God works in the disposition which governs the will, which freely chooses according to its disposition."

THis is not free will where man chooses but man being forced to have whatever disposition God chooses for him.

Free will is not about disposition, it is about volition, and exercising it freely without external constraint (force).

That the will is governed by the internal disposition and, therefore, chooses according to it is a fact of nature.
You may want to revise your definition of free will to accommodate that fact, which would also accommodate it to the Bible.

 

[forsha]

Mans will is free to the extent that man must choose between God and sin. Man remains a created being not a creator.

Man cannot serve two masters for he will either love the one and hate the other or he will hate the one and love the other. God is sovereign and allows man to choose.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The carnal man cannot choose spiritual things. He cannot discern spiritual things, 1 Cor 2:39.

 

[SeaBass]

in all fairness, don't you think "choose this day whom you will serve" was a pretty heavily loaded statement under the circumstances it was spoken?

it's like if we were crossing the ocean, and had a spat, and you said to me "choose for yourself, you can swim 3,000 miles to the shore, or stay on the boat with me" -- more than a small bit rhetorical, don't you think?


yeah, you can choose to be an utter fool, but having knowledge of the truth, how free of a "choice" is that, honestly?

They had the freedom to choose to follow the false gods are the true Lord. There was nothing 'loaded" about it. It would be just as easy to choose to follow the false gods as the Lord. Joshua says their fathers choose to serve those false gods and they could easily do the same.

 

[SeaBass]

The carnal man cannot choose spiritual things. He cannot discern spiritual things, 1 Cor 2:39.

In the context of 1 Cor 2, the natural man is the one who was not miraculously endowed by God to receive revelatory words as the inspired writers (spiritual men) were endowed to receive 'words' from the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:5 shows one can choose to set his mind on either things of the flesh or things of the spirit. Rom8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." "IF" being a conditonal word. They could choose to live after the flesh or Spirit. No man is forced by God to set their mind on either, it's man's choice,

 

[forsha]

You posted (my emp) "And because God operates within the hearts of men causing them voluntarily, without external constraint to do as he wills, he is not violating their free will in the Biblical sense."

"Causing" and "voluntarily" do not go together. Someone on another forum use to tell me one has free will to choose what God makes him choose....which is not free will at all.

How can it be said on one hand "God causes" but then on the other hand say it's "without external constraint"?

If God 'causes' that is external constraint and man is not choosing of HIS own free will but God is forcing HIS choice upon man.

Free will would be man making his own choice between at least two or more options. What you say above is God forcing His own one choice upon man with man having no two or options to choose from for himself. So if a man murdered someone, it was not his own free will choice but what God "caused" him to do.

In the matter of being born of the Spirit, the carnal man will not and, indeed, can not discern spiritual things until he has first been born of the Spirit by the grace of God, without the help of man. 1 Cor 2:39.

 

[forsha]

If man can choose among things of this world there is no reason why he cannot choose about spiritual matters. If man is able to choose to reject Christ he can use that same ability to choose to choose to accept Christ.

Rom 8:5 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."

Which ever you choose to set your mind to is what you follow. If you choose to mind things of the flesh you will follow after the flesh but if you choose to mind things of the spirit you will follow after spiritual things.

What you have said, does not explain your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:39.

 

[SeaBass]

Agreed. . .but choosing to do it is not being forced to do it, because no external constraint is applied.

You're missing the nature of free will, it is the ability/power to choose what I prefer without external constraint.


Agreed. . .he chooses to do what he prefers.

It's not about what he chooses, it's about desiring what he chooses, so that he chooses it freely.


Free will is not about disposition, it is about volition, and exercising it freely without external constraint (force).

What choice am I making if God forces "A" upon me? None. So how can it be said I have freewill choice when I chose nothing for myself? You still have God making choice "A" for me and not me choosing "A" or "B" or "C" for myself. There is no freewill when someone else is choosing for me.

That the will is governed by the internal disposition and, therefore, chooses according to it is a fact of nature.
You may want to revise your definition of free will to accommodate that fact, which would also accommodate it to the Bible.

If God forced men to be born with a depraved nature, then man has no choice in how he was born and will be depraved, not because man chooses to be depraved, but God forced him to be that way. Freewill allows for man to choose between 2 or more options and you are not allowing man to even have one option to choose from but only be what God wants to force upon him. Josh 24:15 shows men have more than one option to choose for himself and not something forced upon him by someone else.

 

[ForthAngel]

In the context of 1 Cor 2, the natural man is the one who was not miraculously endowed by God to receive revelatory words as the inspired writers (spiritual men) were endowed to receive 'words' from the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:5 shows one can choose to set his mind on either things of the flesh or things of the spirit. Rom8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." "IF" being a conditonal word. They could choose to live after the flesh or Spirit. No man is forced by God to set their mind on either, it's man's choice,

Key phrase - "through the Spirit".

Carnal unsaved man does not have the Spirit of God striving with them for spiritual thinking. They cannot choose spiritual things.

Romans 8 makes a distinction between those already saved and those who aren't.

8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, [SUP]2 [/SUP]because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[SUP][c][/SUP] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, [SUP]4 [/SUP]in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


[SUP]5 [/SUP]Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. [SUP]6 [/SUP]The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. [SUP]7 [/SUP]The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

 

[forsha]

If man can choose among things of this world there is no reason why he cannot choose about spiritual matters. If man is able to choose to reject Christ he can use that same ability to choose to choose to accept Christ.

Rom 8:5 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."

Which ever you choose to set your mind to is what you follow. If you choose to mind things of the flesh you will follow after the flesh but if you choose to mind things of the spirit you will follow after spiritual things.

In response to Romans 8:5. We all were once dead in sin (a carnal man), Eph 2:1. and did mind the things of the flesh and without the ability to discern spiritual things until by the grace of God he placed the Holy Spirit within us.

 

[forsha]

In the context of 1 Cor 2, the natural man is the one who was not miraculously endowed by God to receive revelatory words as the inspired writers (spiritual men) were endowed to receive 'words' from the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:5 shows one can choose to set his mind on either things of the flesh or things of the spirit. Rom8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." "IF" being a conditonal word. They could choose to live after the flesh or Spirit. No man is forced by God to set their mind on either, it's man's choice,

I am sorry that I listed the wrong verse in 1 Cor 2. it should have been verse 14. Can you explain to me why you limit the ability to discern spiritual things to only the inspired writers?