Did the LORD Violate Human Free Will???

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Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
#1
How much "free will" do men actually have?

Did the LORD violate Rebekah's "free will" in granting Eliezer's prayer?

10 And the servant took ten camels, of the camels of his master, and departed, 1having all goodly things of his master’s in his hand: and he arose, and went to 2Mesopotamia, unto the city of Nahor. 11 And he made the camels to kneel down without the city by the well of water at the time of evening, the time that women go out to draw water. 12 And he said, O Jehovah, the God of my master Abraham, send me, I pray thee, good speed this day, and show kindness unto my master Abraham. 13 Behold, I am standing by the fountain of water; and the daughters of the men of the city are coming out to draw water: 14 and let it come to pass, that the damsel to whom I shall say, Let down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink; and
she shall say, Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also
:
let the same be she that thou hast appointed for thy servant Isaac; and thereby shall I know that thou hast showed kindness unto my master. 15 And it came to pass, before he had done speaking, that, behold, Rebekah came out, who was born to Bethuel the son of Milcah, the wife of Nahor, Abraham’s brother, with her pitcher upon her shoulder. 16 And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her: and she went down to the fountain, and filled her pitcher, and came up. 17 And the servant ran to meet her, and said, Give me to drink, I pray thee, a little water from thy pitcher. 18 And she said, Drink, my lord: and she hasted, and let down her pitcher upon her hand, and gave him drink. 19 And when she had done giving him drink, she said, I will draw for thy camels also, until they have done drinking.

Did the LORD violate the prophet's will every time a prophet prophesied?

2 Pet 1

21 For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit.


18 Now David fled, and escaped, and came to Samuel to Ramah, and told him all that Saul had done to him. And he and Samuel went and dwelt in Naioth. 19 And it was told Saul, saying, Behold, David is at Naioth in Ramah. 20 And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as head over them, the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied. 21 And when it was told Saul, he sent other messengers, and they also prophesied. And Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they also prophesied. 22 Then went he also to Ramah, and came to the great 5well that is in Secu: and he asked and said, Where are Samuel and David? And one said, Behold, they are at Naioth in Ramah. 23 And he went thither to Naioth in Ramah: and the Spirit of God came upon him also, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in Ramah. 24 And he also stripped off his clothes, and he also prophesied before Samuel, and 6lay down naked all that day and all that night. Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets?


IMHO, "lightly dressed." "naked" עָרוּם "2. lightly dressed (in under-garments only)" -- Halot Lexicon


 

Jon4TheCross

Senior Member
Oct 19, 2012
1,864
7
38
#3
We who have a beginning have always had motivated free-will...so God motivates our motivated free-will which is a good and perfect gift.
 
May 15, 2013
4,307
27
0
#4
Free will is having the freedom to desire what you like and which we all choose to desire darkness rather than the light. But if you desire to have a heart like God, then you must submit to Him in order for Him to work in you; but that is your decision. God didn't made us to be like a robot, that only does what it programmed to do; but we has the liberty to think for ourselves, but not under someone else control. But if you choose to go along to be under the control of this system, then you has submitted your life to the system; but that is our choice. But god said that He will take good care of those that submits to Him, eventhough it might not be the things that the world provides, but the lilies of the fields doesn't slave for no one, but they are taken care of. But it does take great faith to trust in God.

This movie was based on that verse, they didn't had to labor, but their needs was met.

<strong>[video=youtube_share;rn6w255CGkk]http://youtu.be/rn6w255CGkk[/video]
 

Joidevivre

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2014
3,838
271
83
#5
I Believe that God wants us to use our free will BUT possibly could override it for a specific purpose. And probably has. We read that he "turned the hearts" of individuals which would affect their will I would think.

It is just not that black and white to me.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,094
113
#6
is free will a basic human right? where is that written .. ?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,094
113
#7
How much "free will" do men actually have?

Saul of Tarsus thought he had free will.
then he found out different one day -- got his name changed, and a whole lot more :)
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#8
How much "free will" do men actually have?

Did the LORD violate Rebekah's "free will" in grantingEliezer's prayer?

10 And the servant took ten camels, of the camels of his master, and departed, 1having all goodly things of his master’s in his hand: and he arose, and went to 2Mesopotamia, unto the city of Nahor. 11 And he made the camels to kneel down without the city by the well of water at the time of evening, the time that women go out to draw water. 12 And he said, O Jehovah, the God of my master Abraham, send me, I pray thee, good speed this day, and show kindness unto my master Abraham. 13 Behold, I am standing by the fountain of water; and the daughters of the men of the city are coming out to draw water: 14 and let it come to pass, that the damsel to whom I shall say, Let down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink; and
she shall say, Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also
:
let the same be she that thou hast appointed for thy servant Isaac; and thereby shall I know that thou hast showed kindness unto my master. 15 And it came to pass, before he had done speaking, that, behold, Rebekah came out, who was born to Bethuel the son of Milcah, the wife of Nahor, Abraham’s brother, with her pitcher upon her shoulder. 16 And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her: and she went down to the fountain, and filled her pitcher, and came up. 17 And the servant ran to meet her, and said, Give me to drink, I pray thee, a little water from thy pitcher. 18 And she said, Drink, my lord: and she hasted, and let down her pitcher upon her hand, and gave him drink. 19 And when she had done giving him drink, she said, I will draw for thy camels also, until they have done drinking.

Did the LORD violate the prophet's will every time a prophet prophesied?

2 Pet 1

21 For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit.


18 Now David fled, and escaped, and came to Samuel to Ramah, and told him all that Saul had done to him. And he and Samuel went and dwelt in Naioth. 19 And it was told Saul, saying, Behold, David is at Naioth in Ramah. 20 And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as head over them, the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied. 21 And when it was told Saul, he sent other messengers, and they also prophesied. And Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they also prophesied. 22 Then went he also to Ramah, and came to the great 5well that is in Secu: and he asked and said, Where are Samuel and David? And one said, Behold, they are at Naioth in Ramah. 23 And he went thither to Naioth in Ramah: and the Spirit of God came upon him also, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in Ramah. 24 And he also stripped off his clothes, and he also prophesied before Samuel, and 6lay down naked all that day and all that night. Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets?


IMHO, "lightly dressed." "naked" עָרוּם "2. lightly dressed (in under-garments only)" -- Halot Lexicon
Biblical free will is the ability to choose what one prefers without external constraint.

Looks like they did what they preferred above.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
#9
Free will is having the freedom to desire what you like and which we all choose to desire darkness rather than the light. But if you desire to have a heart like God, then you must submit to Him in order for Him to work in you; but that is your decision. God didn't made us to be like a robot, that only does what it programmed to do; but we has the liberty to think for ourselves, but not under someone else control. But if you choose to go along to be under the control of this system, then you has submitted your life to the system; but that is our choice. But god said that He will take good care of those that submits to Him, eventhough it might not be the things that the world provides, but the lilies of the fields doesn't slave for no one, but they are taken care of. But it does take great faith to trust in God.

This movie was based on that verse, they didn't had to labor, but their needs was met.
Interesting assertions & opinions. Would you care to present the Bible proof for them? ("Robot" doesn't occur in the Bible -- not to say that it would be wrong to use "robot" or "anti-robot" to illustrate scripture, if you present it.)
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
#10
Biblical free will is the ability to choose what one prefers without external constraint.

Looks like they did what they preferred above.
So you postulate that Saul's posse that went to arrest David wanted to throw off their clothes & start prophesying? Do you see an hint of that in the text?

As to Rebekah, I would agree that she probably acted in character. Do you think that perhaps the Lord knew before she was born that Eliezer would make that prayer & prepared Rebekah to be like that on that day?
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
#11

Saul of Tarsus thought he had free will.
then he found out different one day -- got his name changed, and a whole lot more :)
There he was, heading to persecute the people of God, being deserving only of a lightning bolt at best, & instead of that, Saul was regenerated and made an apostle.

Shall we break out & sing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsPc-Ix3_ow

[video=youtube;vsPc-Ix3_ow]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsPc-Ix3_ow[/video]
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,938
113
#12
Show me the Scriptures that say we have "free will." It sounds more like an American cultural thing than a biblical concept.

Free will means to me that we choose to go our own way. Anything else is obeying the call and commands of God.

I prefer to be a slave to Jesus, than have free will to sin.

"And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Mark 10:42-45
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
#13
is free will a basic human right? where is that written .. ?
The whole concept of "human rights" is a gratuitous assumption with no Biblical basis as held by the world & enshrined in the Declaration of Independence.

It would be interesting to list the Biblical rights (or lack of rights) of men: Christians, Jews, Gentiles, Christians.

John 1:12 lists a right. Upon belief in the Son of God you have a right to become a child of God. Then for believers, all the promises of God constitute rights.

Here is a glorious right of the believer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZDvpQuteMQ

[video=youtube;HZDvpQuteMQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZDvpQuteMQ[/video]
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,889
2,534
113
#14
God's foreknowledge... and choosing people for His purposes according to it... works really well:

1 Peter 1:2 Elect [=chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, (...)
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
#15
I Believe that God wants us to use our free will BUT possibly could override it for a specific purpose. And probably has. We read that he "turned the hearts" of individuals which would affect their will I would think.

It is just not that black and white to me.
Wise comment.
Many things are not yes vs no, but might be rated on a scale of 0-10 (there is much fallacious binary thinking).

Thus I ask, how much free will does a man have?
I don't understand how it is that God is sovereign, predicts a future sure to happen exactly as He says it will, and yet men make real decisions for which they are responsible, and men cause things to happen.

But I am impressed where the Lord does turn hearts as you say. The King's heart is in the hand of the Lord . . . He turns it withersoever He will.

Our God is an awesome God.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
#16
God's foreknowledge... and choosing people for His purposes according to it... works really well:

1 Peter 1:2 Elect [=chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, (...)
Yes, but where does the Bible say what specifically was "known" in the foreknowledge? And it is the men who are "known," in the sentence, not something they do or some state of their mind -- not that such is ruled out by the word.
 
P

psychomom

Guest
#17
God's foreknowledge... and choosing people for His purposes according to it... works really well:

1 Peter 1:2 Elect [=chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, (...)
same Greek word that is used in Acts 2:23. :)
 
P

psalm6819

Guest
#18
I don't think God ever violates free will, if He did why did Jesus have to die? I think He has foreknowledge but allows us to make our choices. If He was to violate our free will noone would go to Hell/hades/grave. If He were to violate free will Eve wouldn't have eaten from the tree. Can He? Yes Would He? I don't think so. Is it love if we do not freely give it?
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
91
48
#19
Is man sovereign or is God? That is what this question boils down to.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
#20
Show me the Scriptures that say we have "free will." It sounds more like an American cultural thing than a biblical concept.

Free will means to me that we choose to go our own way. Anything else is obeying the call and commands of God.

I prefer to be a slave to Jesus, than have free will to sin.

"And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Mark 10:42-45


Angela, the word
in the NT is hekousios. And it occurs in Philemon. Paul doesn't order Philemon because Paul wants Philemon's good action to be of Philemon's free will. Mind you, the word hekousia is not two words free + will. Actually, so far as I know a man is never said in the Bible to have some specific faculty called his "will." Thelēma with the -ma(t) suffix is better taken to mean the result or object of willing/wanting. Thus if you want an ice cream cone, that is your "will." And the document you write for your death is your will.

BDAG Lexicon
ἑκούσιος, ία, ιον (s. next; Soph., Thu. et al.; ins, pap, LXX; TestLevi 9:7; Philo)
pert to doing someth. of one’s own volition, voluntary, as a volunteer
of backsliders MPol 4 (Zahn’s cj. for ἑαυτοῖς or ἑαυτούς).
κατὰ ἑκούσιον (opp. κατὰ ἀνάγκην) of one’s own free will Phlm 14
(Num 15:3 καθ᾿ ἑκούσιον;
Thu. 8, 27, 3 καθ᾿ ἑκουσίαν [sc. γνώμην];
as opposed to legal compulsion,
cp. Plut., Mor. 446e).—DELG s.v. ἑκών. M-M. TW. Sv.



ἑκουσίως adv. of ἐκούσιος
(s. prec.; Eur., Thu. et al.; ins, pap, LXX, Philo; TestDan 4:6; SibOr 11, 78) willingly ποιμαίνειν (opp. ἀναγκαστῶς) 1 Pt 5:2;
without compulsion, i.e. deliberately, intentionally ἁμαρτάνειν
(Ps.-Demetr., Form. Ep. p. 5, 17)
Hb 10:26.—DELG s.v. ἑκών. M-M.



ἑκών, οῦσα, όν
(Hom. et al.; ins, pap, LXX, Philo; Jos., Vi. 347; 351; Just, D. 5, 5)
pert. to being favorably disposed to do someth. without pressure, willing(ly), glad(ly)
Dg 2:9; IRo 4:1.
Opp. force 5:2; MPol 4:1;
of one’s own free will
(cp. Epict. 3, 5, 9; 4, 3, 9; Lucian, Herm. 77; SIG 1176, 4)
ἑ. τοῦτο πράσσω 1 Cor 9:17
(w. ἄκων, extension of the usual pairing ἑκών . . . ἄκων,
s. Reader, Polemo p. 337; cp. GRickert, ΕΚΩΝ and ΑΚΩΝ in Early Gk. Thought [American Classical Studies 20] ’89).
ὑπετάγη οὐχ ἑκοῦσα it was subjected against its own will (v.l. οὐ θέλουσα) Ro 8:20
(cp. Philo, Ebr. 122).—DELG. M-M. TW.






So you will be singing:

Make me a captive Lord,
& then I shall be free . . .
 
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