Once Saved - Always Saved - Only saved a "works" based gospel?

The bible tells us that in order to be saved that we must basically believe in Christ crucified for the forgiveness of sins. However, the majority of those who believe in "Once Saved Always Saved" insist that if one does not accept their doctrine, it is impossible for you to be saved.

My question to you is: that by insisting a person believe in Once Saved Always Saved in addition to Christ Crucified for the forgiveness of sins, is that not a "works" based gospel seeing as it requires extra effort on our part to be saved?

Talk about a catch 22!

[livingbygrace]

[quote=ChristsArmorBearer;217254]The bible tells us that in order to be saved that we must basically believe in Christ crucified for the forgiveness of sins. However, the majority of those who believe in "Once Saved Always Saved" insist that if one does not accept their doctrine, it is impossible for you to be saved.

My question to you is: that by insisting a person believe in Once Saved Always Saved in addition to Christ Crucified for the forgiveness of sins, is that not a "works" based gospel seeing as it requires extra effort on our part to be saved?

I am afraid that man in his wisdom tends to add to what the Bible actually says.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in me shall not perish but have everlasting life.

That is good enough for me

Originally Posted by livingbygrace

I am afraid that man in his wisdom tends to add to what the Bible actually says.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in me shall not perish but have everlasting life.

That is good enough for me

I couldn't agree more!

[Pete_Martinez]

By works, it is talking about man's trying to justify himself before God through his own means. It doesn't matter whether a person believes you can lose your salvation or never lose it. As he grows as a Christian he will learn all he needs through the word of God. His working with God "through the spirit" will give him the blessed assurance he seeks.

1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
1Jn 3:19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
1Jn 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
1Jn 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

[superdave5221]

Good thread CAB!

Matthew 7: 15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Um. Doing the will of the Father. Sounds like works to me. People pervert Epphesians 2:9 to mean that works are unnecessary. When taken in light of Romans 3:23, it simply means that noone can be saved by works "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". Works cannot save us, for all of us have sinned, but that doesn't mean that they are unimportant, or unnecessary. And it certainly doesn't mean that conditions, (like water immersion, which is no more a work than the act of saving faith), do not apply.

Everywhere in the N.T. obedience to Jesus' commandments, and producing good fruit, both of which imply works, are preached along with faith in our Lord and Savior. It is important to remember that the "faith only" doctine is no older than Martin Luther. Luther wrote the word "sola" meaning "only" in the margin of his Bible at Romans 3:28 making it read "man is justified by faith only" Modern day preachers have perverted his meaning, which was a reaction to the Roman Catholic penance and indulgence system. He was not trying to exclude "the obedience of faith".

Another question is:

If once saved, always saved, what is the reason for repentence?

Acts 8: 13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

Acts 8: 18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money 19 and said, "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit." 20 Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.

Why would Simon, a believer, need to repent if he was always saved? If I am always saved, I have no need for repentence. That is NOT what the Bible teaches.

I like your post.

[superdave5221]

Let me add to post #5 above lest my meaning be misconstrued. I do not mean that everytime that we sin, we lose our salvation. But continual unrepentive sin, over time, alienates us from God, to the point where the Holy Spirit will abandon us to Satan. This would require a complete abandonment of the faith, on our part, but it IS possible. That is why repentence is so necessary.

[Pete_Martinez]

1Co 5:4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
1Co 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

The purpose of a person "being left to Satan" isn't so that they ultimately are destroyed, but that through their abandonment they seek the Lord and repent.

[Thaddaeus]

Originally Posted by ChristsArmorBearer

The bible tells us that in order to be saved that we must basically believe in Christ crucified for the forgiveness of sins. However, the majority of those who believe in "Once Saved Always Saved" insist that if one does not accept their doctrine, it is impossible for you to be saved.

My question to you is: that by insisting a person believe in Once Saved Always Saved in addition to Christ Crucified for the forgiveness of sins, is that not a "works" based gospel seeing as it requires extra effort on our part to be saved?

Talk about a catch 22!

no it is not a work. u trust Jesus to save you and keep u saved it is a faith based doctrine with all our faith in Christ and not in our works..

Jude 1:21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.Jude 1:22And of some have compassion, making a difference:Jude 1:23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.Jude 1:24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,Jude 1:25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen.

[Thaddaeus]

Originally Posted by superdave5221

Good thread CAB!

Matthew 7: 15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Um. Doing the will of the Father. Sounds like works to me. People pervert Epphesians 2:9 to mean that works are unnecessary. When taken in light of Romans 3:23, it simply means that noone can be saved by works "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". Works cannot save us, for all of us have sinned, but that doesn't mean that they are unimportant, or unnecessary. And it certainly doesn't mean that conditions, (like water immersion, which is no more a work than the act of saving faith), do not apply.

Everywhere in the N.T. obedience to Jesus' commandments, and producing good fruit, both of which imply works, are preached along with faith in our Lord and Savior. It is important to remember that the "faith only" doctine is no older than Martin Luther. Luther wrote the word "sola" meaning "only" in the margin of his Bible at Romans 3:28 making it read "man is justified by faith only" Modern day preachers have perverted his meaning, which was a reaction to the Roman Catholic penance and indulgence system. He was not trying to exclude "the obedience of faith".

Another question is:

If once saved, always saved, what is the reason for repentence?

Acts 8: 13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

Acts 8: 18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money 19 and said, "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit." 20 Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.

Why would Simon, a believer, need to repent if he was always saved? If I am always saved, I have no need for repentence. That is NOT what the Bible teaches.

I don't anyone that believes once saved always says has ever said to throw repentence out , Jesus told us a prayer to pray daily that covers our sin on that daily basis. forgive our trespasses, in the Lord's prayer, you think maybe Simon would have fell into this group if he had not repented of trying to buying God

Mt 7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Mt 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Mt 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



Ac 19:1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,Ac 19:2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.Ac 19:3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.Ac 19:4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.Ac 19:5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.Ac 19:6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.Ac 19:7And all the men were about twelve.

[MahogonySnail]

Unfortunlately Paul's writings about 'works' have been taken to the extreme by some to mean 'anything we do', well obviously we must do something, if not we would be jellyfish or something like that and not intelligent humans. Faith, repentance, prayer, reading the bible, etc are NOT the kind of works which are against salvation by grace through faith which Paul wrote about.

Originally Posted by Pete_Martinez

By works, it is talking about man's trying to justify himself before God through his own means. It doesn't matter whether a person believes you can lose your salvation or never lose it. As he grows as a Christian he will learn all he needs through the word of God. His working with God "through the spirit" will give him the blessed assurance he seeks.

1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
1Jn 3:19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
1Jn 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
1Jn 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

I understand what you're saying bro. My point is that these people have publically expressed that they believe repentence to be a work. If something as crucial and foundational to the faith as repentance is a work, then surely this concept is a work also.

Originally Posted by Pete_Martinez

1Co 5:4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
1Co 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

The purpose of a person "being left to Satan" isn't so that they ultimately are destroyed, but that through their abandonment they seek the Lord and repent.

Good stuff Pete!

Thaddeus, no disrespect bro but you must understand that this concept of once saved always saved began as nothing more that a means for calvinsists to justify scripturallyn their elitist beliefs in predestination and also so that no one would question their sinful activities such as murdering those who opposed their agenda.
They insisted that others believe or face grave consequences. The whole doctrine is wrapped in confusion and controversey and always has been.

[Consumed]

ok. once saved always saved, so we just profess, no need now to come with a humble and contrite heart before God, ignore the widows orphans and the poor, deny those in true need lets see and then wonder why does Jesus call me an unfaithful servant, didnt i cast out demons, gave good sermons, do this that the other for you, im unfaithful, And He answers yes you are, when i asked you for a bed, water, help, love caring, you denied me Jesus says, then love this, but when Lord did u ask when,

once saved always saved, romans 10:9 applies only if we deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him, not looking back at what we have given up to follow Him, doesnt cut it just beleive your in heaven... then the 10 virgins, 5 kept their lamps trimmed five didnt, Jesus a liar now too,, come on people, who has bewitched you to believe such doctrines of man......Paul says press on, not draw back.....

had two different people at the same time harass over just reminding people not to forget the poor, blessed to be a blessing i said, they took strips off me for implying some new doctrine, said id give them my address and they could fly out and scourge for it and id be willing to receive it

How we forget Heb 2 1-4, take our salvation lightly,thank God its written to work out our own salvation in fear and trembling, no need to though, wohooo, once save always saved

with love xxx

[Thaddaeus]

Originally Posted by superdave5221

Let me add to post #5 above lest my meaning be misconstrued. I do not mean that everytime that we sin, we lose our salvation. But continual unrepentive sin, over time, alienates us from God, to the point where the Holy Spirit will abandon us to Satan. This would require a complete abandonment of the faith, on our part, but it IS possible. That is why repentence is so necessary.

1co 5:5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
when the Holy Spirit turns us over to satan it is for the destuction of the flesh only, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus, our very doctrine goes against the Word of God, God will only allow one of His to go so far from Him, then He will allow satan to destroy the flesh that the spirit will still be saved, man should live by every word that proceedeth from God, yeah sin will destory the body, but God can preserve the Soul, and His MERCY does endure FOREVER!!!! so if you are save you can not abandon your faith God will allow you to be taken out before you can!!! hope this has help to increase your faith in an almighty God who's mecry endureth forever!!!


2co 1:22Who hath also SEALED us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.Eph 1:13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise,Eph 4:30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are SEALED unto the day of redemption.

[greatkraw]

Originally Posted by ChristsArmorBearer

The bible tells us that in order to be saved that we must basically believe in Christ crucified for the forgiveness of sins. However, the majority of those who believe in "Once Saved Always Saved" insist that if one does not accept their doctrine, it is impossible for you to be saved.

My question to you is: that by insisting a person believe in Once Saved Always Saved in addition to Christ Crucified for the forgiveness of sins, is that not a "works" based gospel seeing as it requires extra effort on our part to be saved?

Talk about a catch 22!

so what do you gain by misrepresenting the biblical position or thosewho have a correct handle on this doctrine?

[MahogonySnail]

They believe that if you don't believe you are always saved then you were never saved in the first place.

[Pete_Martinez]

Hm... I remember a "Calvinist" preacher that those who usually are saved have the tendency to question their salvation.
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

Mat 26:21 And as they were eating, he said, "Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me."
Mat 26:22 And they were very sorrowful and began to say to him one after another, "Is it I, Lord?"
As you can see, I'm very certain there was one that night who didn't even bother to ask that question.

[superdave5221]

Originally Posted by Thaddaeus

I don't anyone that believes once saved always says has ever said to throw repentence out , Jesus told us a prayer to pray daily that covers our sin on that daily basis. forgive our trespasses, in the Lord's prayer, you think maybe Simon would have fell into this group if he had not repented of trying to buying God

Mt 7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Mt 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Mt 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



Ac 19:1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,Ac 19:2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.Ac 19:3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.Ac 19:4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.Ac 19:5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.Ac 19:6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.Ac 19:7And all the men were about twelve.

You're right Pastor Keith. We must repent of our sins on a daily basis, or at least often. But what happens if we don't? What if we continue to slide into worse and worse sins, and completely alienate ourselves from God. Satan is subtle, and causes us to abandon God's grace one step at a time. What happens if we never turn back. Are we not then lost, and have lost the salvation that we once had?

Although I try to repent often, at least every day, I've found that a great time to experience that forgiveness is during the Lord's Supper. Unfortunately, most churches only practice this once a month. The pattern set up by the early church was to participate in the Lord's Supper EVERY sunday.