Eternal salvation vs daily service

[forsha]

Grace is God's gift to those who actively obey Him. Nothing we could ever do or say can earn it, but God does not give this to those who will not take up their cross daily and follow Christ.

That's advocating eternal salvation by works, pure and simple!

 

[forsha]

Conditionalism again. God does not bestow such grace because of some merit in fallen man. God gives as He sees fit, as to whomsoever He wills it. Not the will of the sinner! The will of almighty God alone at work. Then obedience follows as a fruit - not a condition or prerequisite. All conditions for our salvation have been fulfilled in the person and work of Christ alone. Those who are yet ignorant about this saving truth are still going about to establish their own righteousness and are yet lost!

Do you realize that very few do understand the doctrine of Christ, and that it has been hid from most people, but just because they do not understand the doctrine, does not mean that they are not saved eternally. They do not have the right kind of fellowship with God, but they are still saved eternally. Those of us that have been given, by the grace of God, to understand the doctrine, should be very thankful, but not boastful. Don't you agree?

 

[mikeuk]

I have noticed in the forums, a whole lot of people are mixing these two together. I have heard people say along the lines of walking in the Spirit is getting eternal life.. or saying along the lines of not having eternal salvation until the day the die-- so the person's whole life is working toward gaining it or not. There are also a lot of other variations.

Biblically speaking, these are seperate. Justification is seperate from a believers walk with Jesus. Of course someone has to be justified first, saved eternally first, but the way someone lives out their faith does not affect the status of the justification in the first place.

Eternal salvation- it's from Jesus-- who keeps it by His power. It is His faith in the believer that keeps the believer secure. It's not the believer's own faith that keeps them or gives them eternal life.. because that goes up and down through their life.

So let's talk about the difference between eternal salvation and daily service.

Always bear in mind no verse stands by itself. So for eg 'faith without works is dead'.. context of this ISN'T about how someone is given eternal life.. but how someone is living out their faith.

Abraham being 'justified by faith' when he offered his son Isaac up.. this is not an example of someone being given eternal life.. but how he lived out his faith at a stage in his life. There is another verse of when he was mostly likely given eternal life.. and it wasn't when he offered up his son Issac.

'he who endureth to the end shall be saved' .. surrounding context is again about a group's walk with Jesus.. not about them being given eternal salvation. A group being 'saved' from persecution and trials.

There is a difference between being saved from trouble, hard times and persecution.. and being saved from hell, given eternal life.

Bible verses to come.

Is it not time to move on from this? Some of us cannot agree. You are right, no verse stands by itself. And you cannot reconcile that view that nothing else matters after claiming salvation with many scriptures take this from Matthew 7.21

21 “Not everyone who keeps saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will get into the kingdom from[d] heaven, but only the person who keeps doing the will of my Father in heaven.

It matters you keep doing the will, not do it once then forever saved!

I entered the thread for a different reason, about doing his will in Christian life which should be the focus

What does it matter you consider you are once saved, always saved or not saved till the end? You will be saved by grace and Christ, not passing a theology exam, and if the belief that you are saved already , allows you to freewheel after that, and so by letting your eye off the ball, indulge the luxury of committing one more unnecessary sin, loving or helping one person less, or proclaiming the gospel one less time, you are not living live to the full in your calling to aspire to be saints.

It seems to me the life of witness through loving god and neighbour matter more than any fine point of theology of salvation, and that vocation of love should be the focus on which all Christians could agree more. We are called to be saints not theologists!

I hope we can all agree on the calling, even if we fall short, in my case by a very long way!

 

[notuptome]

Is it not time to move on from this? Some of us cannot agree. You are right, no verse stands by itself. And you cannot reconcile that view that nothing else matters after claiming salvation with many scriptures take this from Matthew 7.21

21 “Not everyone who keeps saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will get into the kingdom from[d] heaven, but only the person who keeps doing the will of my Father in heaven.

It matters you keep doing the will, not do it once then forever saved!

I entered the thread for a different reason, about doing his will in Christian life which should be the focus

What does it matter you consider you are once saved, always saved or not saved till the end? You will be saved by grace and Christ, not passing a theology exam, and if the belief that you are saved already , allows you to freewheel after that, and so by letting your eye off the ball, indulge the luxury of committing one more unnecessary sin, loving or helping one person less, or proclaiming the gospel one less time, you are not living live to the full in your calling to aspire to be saints.

It seems to me the life of witness through loving god and neighbour matter more than any fine point of theology of salvation, and that vocation of love should be the focus on which all Christians could agree more. We are called to be saints not theologists!

I hope we can all agree on the calling, even if we fall short, in my case by a very long way!

Salvation by grace precludes working to maintain ones salvation. Salvation cannot be earned nor can it be deserved.

Those who are lost decry the insistence on salvation by grace. Those who cry to the Lord in Mathew 7:21 are those who have deemed themselves of significance in religious terms and feel they deserve salvation. Religious but lost are the ones who point to their works as merit for salvation.

I can see why they are uncomfortable in the discussion. John 3:18-20 describes them to a T.

I rejoice to speak of Gods grace. Fully sufficient and perfect to do all that God requires to save and keep unto the end of eternity. My only plea before God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[wattie]

Is it not time to move on from this? Some of us cannot agree. You are right, no verse stands by itself. And you cannot reconcile that view that nothing else matters after claiming salvation with many scriptures take this from Matthew 7.21

21 “Not everyone who keeps saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will get into the kingdom from[d] heaven, but only the person who keeps doing the will of my Father in heaven.

It matters you keep doing the will, not do it once then forever saved!

I entered the thread for a different reason, about doing his will in Christian life which should be the focus

What does it matter you consider you are once saved, always saved or not saved till the end? You will be saved by grace and Christ, not passing a theology exam, and if the belief that you are saved already , allows you to freewheel after that, and so by letting your eye off the ball, indulge the luxury of committing one more unnecessary sin, loving or helping one person less, or proclaiming the gospel one less time, you are not living live to the full in your calling to aspire to be saints.

It seems to me the life of witness through loving god and neighbour matter more than any fine point of theology of salvation, and that vocation of love should be the focus on which all Christians could agree more. We are called to be saints not theologists!

I hope we can all agree on the calling, even if we fall short, in my case by a very long way!

Having security in salvation doesn't make me want to go off and do what ever I want in opposition to Christ.

Having security in salvation makes me want to love Jesus back because of the huge grace given.

 

[Galatians2-20]

For the last few days, I have focused on the relational aspects of our salvation and how a normal human being simply does not have the capability to grasp, hold, or comprehend salvation apart from the presence of God. I would like to take this opportunity to elaborate further:

"Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save, or his ear dull, that it cannot hear; but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear." ~ Isaiah 59: 1-2

The word of God teaches time and time again that sin does in fact separates us from God. Both our Lord & Savior, Jesus Christ, and the apostle Paul taught that no sin shall into heaven. John, the disciple whom Jesus loved, goes so far as to say that those who sin have neither seen or known God (1 John 3).

Our salvation is secure through faith in Christ and in Him alone. Any professing believer who thinks that he or she can indulge the desires of the flesh yet retain their salvation and avoid the repercussions of their actions have essentially taken faith into their own hands and placed it on the pedestal of their own flawed human intellect instead of plaicng faith in Christ and His word.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." ~ Romans 6:23

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap." ~Galatians 6:7

 

[Galatians2-20]

Do you realize that very few do understand the doctrine of Christ, and that it has been hid from most people, but just because they do not understand the doctrine, does not mean that they are not saved eternally. They do not have the right kind of fellowship with God, but they are still saved eternally. Those of us that have been given, by the grace of God, to understand the doctrine, should be very thankful, but not boastful. Don't you agree?

Tribesman is a noted Calvinist. Many Calvinists do not acknowledge salvation outside of Calvinism. Basically they are elitists who believe that they are the chosen few and everyone else is heretic predestined for hell.

 

[Galatians2-20]

Salvation by grace precludes working to maintain ones salvation. Salvation cannot be earned nor can it be deserved.

Roger

Nowhere does the bible say that one must work to maintain their salvation. This is a false assumption based on bad theology concerning sanctification. Sanctification can no more be earned than salvation. It is impossible comprehend Christ through human intellect much less imitate Him through human effort. Both salvation and sanctification are purely relational.

 

[wattie]

I am pleased to see that you do separate the salvation scriptures, understanding that there are salvations (deliverances) we receive here in this world. I think that you are a little confused as to when a person is eternally saved. John 6:37-41, Jesus died upon the cross for all of the sins of THOSE THAT GOD GAVE HIM to redeem them back to God and Jesus said he would not lose even one of them but would raise them up at the last day. On the cross was where and when they were saved eternally. I believe the scriptures to teach that all of his elect, when they are born a natural birth are born depraved and separated from God until they are born again. His elect as they live out their lives here ion earth, do continue to sin, but none of the sins will keep them out of heaven because they were all washed away at the cross, but I believe that when the elect sin that they do separate themselves from a fellowship with God until they confess and repent of that sin bringing about a deliverance or salvation.

Yah here is the difference I have with calvinist type teaching..

I am the same in terms of a believer being completey secure after being given eternal life.. but the means by which they are given eternal life.. is not by being elected -- but by the person asking for salvation from Jesus. Free will to ask for eternal salvation..

But not free will to leave eternal salvation afterward.. because Jesus is the one who gave the eternal salvation.. and the one who keeps it by His faith in the believer.

So many will claim there are only two positions- either Calvinist or Arminian.. I am technically neither. Still need to call for salvation the first place.. but no way it can be undone after.

I believe what is predestined is the place a believer has in heaven after being saved.. and also God has pre-destined His churches to a certain end.

Romans 10-- calling out for salvation

security of salvation-- John 3:36 & Ephesians 2:8,9 & 1 Peter 1:2-4 & John 5:24, John 10:28

verses about God's judgment on a believer-- are always about loss of relationship, closeness, and about God disciplining his children.. never about a believer actually being in danger of or losing eternal life.

 

[forsha]

Yah here is the difference I have with calvinist type teaching..

I am the same in terms of a believer being completey secure after being given eternal life.. but the means by which they are given eternal life.. is not by being elected -- but by the person asking for salvation from Jesus. Free will to ask for eternal salvation..

But not free will to leave eternal salvation afterward.. because Jesus is the one who gave the eternal salvation.. and the one who keeps it by His faith in the believer.

So many will claim there are only two positions- either Calvinist or Arminian.. I am technically neither. Still need to call for salvation the first place.. but no way it can be undone after.

I believe what is predestined is the place a believer has in heaven after being saved.. and also God has pre-destined His churches to a certain end.

Romans 10-- calling out for salvation

security of salvation-- John 3:36 & Ephesians 2:8,9 & 1 Peter 1:2-4 & John 5:24, John 10:28

verses about God's judgment on a believer-- are always about loss of relationship, closeness, and about God disciplining his children.. never about a believer actually being in danger of or losing eternal life.

I believe the scriptures to teach that eternal salvation came only by Christ's obedience to die for the sins of only those that the Father gave him, and every one that he died for will live with him in heaven without the loss of one, John 6:37-40. This makes eternal salvation by the grace of God, without the help of man.

 

[Galatians2-20]

All of the scriptures many use to plead their case concerning "Once Saved Always Saved" do not justify the idea of unconditional eternal security. Such doctrine is nothing more than the carnal assumptions of sinful men. Rather, those scriptures actually are talking about life in the Spirit and God's ability to sanctify those who place their complete reliane on Him and make their home in Him.

Salvation occurs when the Spirit of Christ comes to make His home in us (Rom. 8:11). Sanctification occurs when we make our home in Him (Gal. 5:16). Grace is an open invitation. Faith is the key that opens the door. (Eph. 2:8)

Will You Enter?

"For this is the will of God, your sanctification..." ~ 1 Thess. 4:3

 

[Hepsibah]

To understand salvation, justification and sanctification with clarity you may read the online message from goodnewsofgreatjoy.com. You will understand that when we are in Christ, our spirit soul and body are made righteous with God's righteousness which is called Justification. And when we are in Christ, God's Spirit and God's righteousness drives our spirit soul and body in paths of righteousness,which sanctifies us.
God bless

 

[wattie]

To understand salvation, justification and sanctification with clarity you may read the online message from goodnewsofgreatjoy.com. You will understand that when we are in Christ, our spirit soul and body are made righteous with God's righteousness which is called Justification. And when we are in Christ, God's Spirit and God's righteousness drives our spirit soul and body in paths of righteousness,which sanctifies us.
God bless

Guess the big question-- is what it means to be 'in' Christ?

Does this mean-- Christ has indwelled our spirit in saving our soul.. and therefore we are in Him.. or
does it mean- being 'in' Christ is contingent on our obedience.. our works?

If it's the later.. Jesus sacrifice counts for nothing!

 

[kennethcadwell]

The book for this topic that people need to read is 1 John, as in this book John breaks it down and tells you exactly how you know you are in Christ and Christ is in you. I will give a few tid-bits from that epistle;

1 John 3:24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

[h=1]1 John 4:11-13[/h]11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

 

[Galatians2-20]

Guess the big question-- is what it means to be 'in' Christ?

Does this mean-- Christ has indwelled our spirit in saving our soul.. and therefore we are in Him.. or
does it mean- being 'in' Christ is contingent on our obedience.. our works?

If it's the later.. Jesus sacrifice counts for nothing!

Wattie, you're approaching this from the wrong angle. To be "in Christ" does not involve human effort. It is when we reach a place in both our hearts and mind where Christ is revered about all, breaking every chain that binds us to sin. It's NOT a human work even though it does motivate good works. In truth, it is nothing short of FREEDOM.

 

[Galatians2-20]

Wattie, you're approaching this from the wrong angle. To be "in Christ" does not involve human effort. It is when we reach a place in both our hearts and mind where Christ is revered about all, breaking every chain that binds us to sin. It's NOT a human work even though it does motivate good works. In truth, it is nothing short of FREEDOM.

That should read: "when we reach a place in both our hearts and mind where Christ is revered ABOVE all"

 

[Galatians2-20]

The book for this topic that people need to read is 1 John, as in this book John breaks it down and tells you exactly how you know you are in Christ and Christ is in you. I will give a few tid-bits from that epistle;

1 John 3:24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 4:11-13

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

1 JOHN 3 is the key passage to understanding the whole thing. However, I believe many confuse what the passage is saying.

In verse 24, when John states that "he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him", what the Apostle is saying is that that those who abide in Christ will keep the commandments as the result of their abiding. It is not through human effort that gain access to Christ. Rather, it is through abiding in Christ that bondage to sin and the world is broken.

I have experienced this in my own life so I know for a fact that this is true.

 

[tribesman]

I would like to try and show how and when you were saved eternally. If you have a desire, and can discern spiritual things is evidence that you have been saved eternally, When you were saved was by Christ's death upon the cross, John 6:37-40, Jesus said that he would not lose even one of those that his Father gave him. That's eternal security!

I have discussed this with you before here when you used your former username forest. While we do have some similarities in our beliefs, we also have some differences. Some of these big differences. For example I do not hold to the eternal justification view. I also do not hold to the view that salvation comes to the Elect totally without any means. As we have already discussed this particular issues before I see no reason to repeat same. You may re-read the old posts should you have forgotten it. All who are seriously interested in this interesting topic should read it. It can be viewed here.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/35327-error-eternal-justification.html#post608915

This related thread deals with topics like duty faith:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...lling-mark-1-14-15-repent-believe-gospel.html

 

[wattie]

Wattie, you're approaching this from the wrong angle. To be "in Christ" does not involve human effort. It is when we reach a place in both our hearts and mind where Christ is revered about all, breaking every chain that binds us to sin. It's NOT a human work even though it does motivate good works. In truth, it is nothing short of FREEDOM.

Well, if being 'in' Christ means as you say-- being in a place in both our hearts and mind where Christ is revered about all-- that's eternal salvation dependent on US.

That's works for salvation my friend

Biblically-- it's Christ indwelling in us that is how He saves us and how He keeps us. It's not our being 'in' Christ that gives us eternal salvation. Unless 'in' means-- He has saved us in the first place.. and therefore He is 'in' us.

 

[f4ufighter777]

Re: Eternal Salvation vs Daily Service

Perhaps "the pertinent things," that Jesus Said, is sufficient while man's interpretations are the problem. HE Said that there are two ways, Re HIS Chosen race i.e. The Wide Way which seems to-be the correct way to-go and-was "the way," that Paul, when he was "the high Pharisee," Saul was going. He "had no clue," THAT he "had no clue," THAT he was going "the wrong way," as things were always working well, for him, then.!!!

Yet, Jesus Said THAT only "a few," would find HIS Way i.e. The Narrow Way whose gate is called STRAIT. This gate is posted with all kinds of waring re dangers and persecution!!!

Paul's "Damascus Road Experience," was "A Call," by THE HOLY SPIRIT into THE KING'S SERVICE!!! He spent the next three years in HOLY SPIRIT Bible School so-receiving Correct Interpretations of "all that knowledge," he had incorrectly interpreted, over those past years. He received "no degree," for this Bible School offers "no graduation!!!"

Paul changed "traveling ways," from man's interpretations to THAT of THE HOLY SPIRIT. Consequently - he began to-travel, The Way THAT leads to Eternal Life!!! When he sustained Martyrdom - he finished his course going Jesus' Way. Because he was a Martyr - he will be in The First Resurrection! Jesus Once Said THAT HE Delights in-the-deaths of HIS Saints!!!

Eternal Life "is won," individually, when HIS Children - finish The Course of Obedience so-going Jesus' Way!

f4ufighter777

TRUTHS:

{It is TOO LATE to pray for America: Isaiah tells us re times “such as these,” – THE LORD WILL NOT HEAR our prayers AND America (and all her Biblical Sister Nations) has-long-since followed “the same pattern,” of National Cultural Destruction THAT her genetic ancestors i.e. The Historic, Flesh and Blood, Non-Jewish House of Jacob-Israel – followed into Divine Judgment (without Rapture) over and over and over!!!}

{It is TOO EARLY to-employ “The Obedience,” of 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] Chronicles 7:14 FOR - Divine Intervention as The Disclaimer, in Verse 13 tells us THAT Verse 14 WILL NOT WORK as-long-as THE LORD’S OWN people, have sufficient access, to Resource and Energy enough, TO OBEY the prophets, in putting THE EVIL, out of The Land – SO STAYING Impending Divine Judgment!!!}
{Religious Prison has “no iron bars” YET it is Absolutely-Secure IN-THAT there has-been no-escapes from it, NO, NOT ONE, in-over 2000 years – ONLY Pardons!!! It is “the only prison,” WHEREBY “those so incarcerated,” of their-own selves CANNOT KNOW THAT they-are so-incarcerated!!!)

{still looking for allies re The Edomite (3 generation) Culture War, against The Bible (consequently against Christ) THOUGH they have-long-since "won it" THOUGH only on an-informal-basis WHILE formality cannot-be very-far away THEN, HE WILL DELIVER, HIS OWN people, into Great Tribulation, once again, THOUGH – this time FOR -"the last time!!!"}


{“none are-more hopelessly-enslaved than-those who falsely-believe they are-free” – Johann Gothe}
{“The Religiously-Lost, of their-own facilities, cannot-know THAT they-are Religiously-Lost!!!” – The Bible}
When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty.

~~Thomas Jefferson


(When Edomite-Washington DC, wrote Christ, its “bill of divorcement,” by tossing, HIS LAW, out of America, as-if IT-WERE, some “smelly sack of garbage,” – man’s local church “co-signed it,” by just-singing AMAZING GRACE and VICTORY IN JESUS as-if ONLY NOTHING “was wrong,” – this act of Absolute Apathy disenfranchised HIM From, Any Longer, BEING America’s BENEFACTOR and-was “The Foundation,” THAT ALL OF America’s Great National Tragedies WOULD INDEED HAPPEN and-was The Foundation THAT Edom-Washington DC WOULD continually-follow, “it’s same course today of Illegally-Legally (i.e. violating The Constitution WHILE-Making “law of The Land) legislating “evil to be good,” AND “good to be evil!!!” Consequently – 1000s of otherwise-innocent lives, are destroyed 24/7 via “the many aspects,” of America’s “pagan culture,” of Death (America was-born with The Biblical Culture of Life!!!)!!!


{SO, SINCE Edom-Jewry Communism has-murdered “hundreds of millions,” (and murders millions-more, each year) AND it is the: "finest ideals of the Edomite-Jewish mind" WHAT - does this tell-us about Edom-Jewry AND about who-blesses “these ideals,” by continually-blessing Communism’s Headquarters i.e. The Political State of Israel (not-to-be confused with The True Israelites, of The Flesh and Blood House of Jacob-Israel) WHEREBY America has-long-since become “the most Divinely-Cursed nation so-blessing her FORMER BENEFACTOR’S “racial enemies WHEREAS this is Biblically-Forbidden!!!?

Anti-Communism is Anti-Semitism.”Jewish Voice, July - August 1941.
“Some call it Communism, I call it Judaism.” Rabbi Stephen Weiss.}

scripturesforamerica.org amprom.org kingidentity.com thetruthseeker.co.uk
amren.com infowars.com seek-info.com israelect.com missiontoisrael.org
wnd.com truthinhistory.org blacklistednews.com hoffman-info.com
thetomatobubble.com goggle: “red jewry” and “edom jewry”

From The Biblical Prospective “things,” have-been getting “worse and worse,” for “The Traditional American people,” for the past 3 generations AND FOR TOO LONG “these things,” have-been getting “worse and worse,” faster and faster!!!
From The Edomite Prospective “things,’ (re America) have-been getting “better and better,” for them, for the past 3 generations AND FOR TOO LONG “these things,” have-been getting “better and better,” faster and faster!!!
One already consequence, America has-long-since been-transformed into This World System’s Chief Pagan Nation, so-ruling over it!!!

Another consequence has-been The Transformation of America’s Original, Inherent-Biblical “Culture of Life,” INTO The Same Old, Anti-Christ, Babylonian “Culture of Death!!!” America – just like the-rest of here genetic-sister nations FEATURES The Culture of Death!!!

All this while – ALL that has-been heard-from The American-Made, 501c3, Mainstream, Local Church System re this, is-singing AMAZING GRACE and VICTORY IN JESUS as-if ONLY NOTHING is wrong!!! Consequently – The Current “Handwriting On The Wall,” Testifies of THE LORD’S Condemnation of America WITHOUT Rapture (this is not “the time,” to be ignorant of The Sowing and Reaping Doctrine!!!)!!!