Do the four resurrection accounts contradict eachother?

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W

wwjd_kilden

Guest
#21
If four people told four different accounts of the same event to a police officer, for example, I believe their testimony would be deemed unreliable.

Actually, people do that all the time. it is because our brains can't notice every tidbit of information (that would lead to overload).
 

birdie

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2014
511
91
28
#22
Four gospels, four different authors, four different interpretations of one event. And who knows who informed each writer of what actually happened at the tomb. Matthew may have heard from Mary while Mary Magdalene told John or what have you.
One author. The Holy Spirit (2 Tim 3:16)

Yes, the resurrection is pretty important....and the fact that the gospel writers can't get their story straight on it should be concerning.
f, however, you want to still believe the Bible is the God-breathed, inerrant Word of God, then you cannot simply dismiss this as inconsequential because then you'd be contradicting your own beliefs. Unless you think these aren't contradictions, in which I'd love some responses.
What seem to be contradictions must have explanations because the Bible is not really from the mind of human writers, but its author is God (2 Timothy 3:16). Consider how it was for Jeremiah: "Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all thewordsthat I have spoken unto thee in a book."( Jer 30:2) Notice that God speaks the words and Jeremiah is simply the recorder. God is the author. If God seems to some people to contradict himself, I think it is more likely that humans do not understand his words so the words seem to contradict. For example, it might be easy to read about how God says he is one God only (Deut 6:4), and then read how God is three, or seven spirits, or is a lamb but is a lion, or is a big wheel in the sky with another wheel, and become confused and think that God is contradicting himself. Rather, I think that God is showing us various aspects of himself. What most modern readers of the Bible do not understand is that God writes the Bible in parable form (Psalm 78:1-2a, Mark 4). Mark 4 says that it is given to the true believers to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to those that are unsaved ("without") the Bible is a parable that is not understood. It is a parable in both cases, but for the true believer God will open understanding, especially if they ask.
"Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.I will open my mouth in a parable" (Psalm 78:1-2a)
"And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." (Mark 4:11-12)
 
Dec 8, 2014
306
4
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#23
There is a reason that the scriptures were penned by numerous people over a long span of time. The credibility of a collection of writings by many people over many generations is higher than if that same collection of writings had been penned by one or two people in a decade or so.

Those who want to find problems will rely on their own understanding and find problems. Those who have faith in God's word and listen to the Holy Spirit will have their questions answered.

If we dwell on inconsistencies we miss the overall message.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,969
4,586
113
#25
If any of you have read the four resurrection accounts found in the four gospels, you've probably noticed a few startling discrepancies.

Here are some of the more startling ones, and I apologize for the bad formatting of this table:

[TABLE="class: CruxTable, width: 100%"]
[TR="class: CruxHeaderRow"]
[TH="class: CruxQuestionColumn CruxTableHeader"]Q.[/TH]
[TH="class: CruxTableHeader CruxMatthewColumn, colspan: 2"]Matt.[/TH]
[TH="class: CruxTableHeader CruxMarkColumn"]Mark[/TH]
[TH="class: CruxTableHeader CruxLukeColumn, colspan: 2"]Luke[/TH]
[TH="class: CruxTableHeader CruxJohnColumn"]John[/TH]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: CruxTable, width: 100%"]
[TR="class: CruxTerminalAnswerRow"]
[TD="class: CruxQuestionColumn"]Had the sun yet risen when the women came to the tomb?[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMatthewColumn, colspan: 2"]It was toward dawn of the first day of the week. (28:1)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMarkColumn"]YES — They came to the tomb when the sun had risen. (16:2)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxLukeColumn, colspan: 2"]At early dawn they went to the tomb (24:1)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxJohnColumn"]NO—-Mary came early to the tomb, while it was STILL DARK. (20:1)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: CruxTable, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: CruxQuestionColumn"]A) How many people came to the tomb?[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMatthewColumn, colspan: 2"]A) TWO[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMarkColumn"]A) THREE[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxLukeColumn, colspan: 2"]A) FOUR+[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxJohnColumn"]A) ONE[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: CruxTerminalAnswerRow"]
[TD="class: CruxQuestionColumn"]B) Who were they?[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMatthewColumn, colspan: 2"]B) Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:1)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMarkColumn"]B) Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Salome (16:1)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxLukeColumn, colspan: 2"]B) Mary Magdalene, Mary mother of James, Joanna and other women (24:10)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxJohnColumn"]B) Only Mary Magdalene came to the tomb. (20:1)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: CruxTerminalAnswerRow CruxAltRow"]
[TD="class: CruxQuestionColumn"]Was the stone removed when the women arrived at the tomb?[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMatthewColumn, colspan: 2"]NO — After the women arrive at the tomb, an angel rolls back the stone. (28:1-2)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMarkColumn"]YES — When they arrived, the stone had already been rolled away. (16:4)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxLukeColumn, colspan: 2"]YES — When they arrived, the stone had already been taken away. ( 2 4:2)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxJohnColumn"]YES — When Mary arrived, the stone had already been taken away. (20:1)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: CruxQuestionColumn"]Who was at the tomb?[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMatthewColumn, colspan: 2"]One angel[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMarkColumn"]One young man[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxLukeColumn, colspan: 2"]Two men[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxJohnColumn"]Two angels[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: CruxTable, width: 100%"]
[TR="class: CruxTerminalAnswerRow"]
[TD="class: CruxQuestionColumn"]Does Mary wish to tell the disciples what had happened?[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMatthewColumn, colspan: 2"]YES—- “They departed quickly… and ran to tell the disciples.” (28:8)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMarkColumn"]NO— “They said nothing to anyone; for they were afraid.” (16:8)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxLukeColumn, colspan: 2"]YES — “Returning from the tomb, they told all this to the eleven…” (24:9)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxJohnColumn"]YES— Mary Magdalene tells the disciples, “I have seen the Lord.” (20:18)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: CruxAltRow"]
[TD="class: CruxQuestionColumn"]After seeing the angels, whom does Mary meet first, Jesus or the disciples?[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMatthewColumn, colspan: 2"]Jesus (28:9)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMarkColumn"]Jesus (16:9)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxLukeColumn, colspan: 2"]the Disciples (24:4-9)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxJohnColumn"]Jesus (20:14)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: CruxTable, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: CruxQuestionColumn"]To whom does Jesus make his first appearance?[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMatthewColumn, colspan: 2"] The two Marys[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMarkColumn"] Only Mary Magdalene[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxLukeColumn, colspan: 2"] Cleopas and another[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxJohnColumn"] Only Mary Magdalene[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: CruxTable, width: 100%"]
[TR="class: CruxTerminalAnswerRow CruxAltRow"]
[TD="class: CruxQuestionColumn"]Is Mary permitted to touch Jesus after the resurrection?[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMatthewColumn, colspan: 2"]YES — “.they came and held him by his feet, and worshiped him.” (28:9)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMarkColumn"]Not mentioned in Mark[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxLukeColumn, colspan: 2"]YES — “Behold my hands and my feet…handle me and see….” (24:39; 1 John 1:1)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxJohnColumn"]No — Jesus said to her, “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father….” (20:17)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I apologize for the bad formatting, but this table comparison just shows some of the glaring contradictions. In some cases, just one gospel is the odd man out while the other three act in harmony. In other cases, all 4 seem to have a differing opinion. It is downright scary to see how wildly different these accounts are and really calls into question the accuracy of the gospels as a whole.

I'm wondering what people's thoughts on this are. Are you okay with the discrepancies? Do you not see them as discrepancies? What do you think about this?

NO, because NONE of them has the complete account of what Jesus did, and said:


John 21:25 (NIV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Jesus did many other things as well.
If every one of them were written down,
I suppose that even the whole world would not
have room for the books that would be written.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#26
If any of you have read the four resurrection accounts found in the four gospels, you've probably noticed a few startling discrepancies.

Here are some of the more startling ones, and I apologize for the bad formatting of this table:

[TABLE="class: CruxTable, width: 100%"]
[TR="class: CruxHeaderRow"]
[TH="class: CruxQuestionColumn CruxTableHeader"]Q.[/TH]
[TH="class: CruxTableHeader CruxMatthewColumn, colspan: 2"]Matt.[/TH]
[TH="class: CruxTableHeader CruxMarkColumn"]Mark[/TH]
[TH="class: CruxTableHeader CruxLukeColumn, colspan: 2"]Luke[/TH]
[TH="class: CruxTableHeader CruxJohnColumn"]John[/TH]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: CruxTable, width: 100%"]
[TR="class: CruxTerminalAnswerRow"]
[TD="class: CruxQuestionColumn"]Had the sun yet risen when the women came to the tomb?[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMatthewColumn, colspan: 2"]It was toward dawn of the first day of the week. (28:1)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMarkColumn"]YES — They came to the tomb when the sun had risen. (16:2)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxLukeColumn, colspan: 2"]At early dawn they went to the tomb (24:1)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxJohnColumn"]NO—-Mary came early to the tomb, while it was STILL DARK. (20:1)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: CruxTable, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: CruxQuestionColumn"]A) How many people came to the tomb?[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMatthewColumn, colspan: 2"]A) TWO[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMarkColumn"]A) THREE[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxLukeColumn, colspan: 2"]A) FOUR+[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxJohnColumn"]A) ONE[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: CruxTerminalAnswerRow"]
[TD="class: CruxQuestionColumn"]B) Who were they?[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMatthewColumn, colspan: 2"]B) Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:1)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMarkColumn"]B) Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Salome (16:1)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxLukeColumn, colspan: 2"]B) Mary Magdalene, Mary mother of James, Joanna and other women (24:10)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxJohnColumn"]B) Only Mary Magdalene came to the tomb. (20:1)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: CruxTerminalAnswerRow CruxAltRow"]
[TD="class: CruxQuestionColumn"]Was the stone removed when the women arrived at the tomb?[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMatthewColumn, colspan: 2"]NO — After the women arrive at the tomb, an angel rolls back the stone. (28:1-2)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMarkColumn"]YES — When they arrived, the stone had already been rolled away. (16:4)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxLukeColumn, colspan: 2"]YES — When they arrived, the stone had already been taken away. ( 2 4:2)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxJohnColumn"]YES — When Mary arrived, the stone had already been taken away. (20:1)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: CruxQuestionColumn"]Who was at the tomb?[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMatthewColumn, colspan: 2"]One angel[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMarkColumn"]One young man[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxLukeColumn, colspan: 2"]Two men[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxJohnColumn"]Two angels[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: CruxTable, width: 100%"]
[TR="class: CruxTerminalAnswerRow"]
[TD="class: CruxQuestionColumn"]Does Mary wish to tell the disciples what had happened?[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMatthewColumn, colspan: 2"]YES—- “They departed quickly… and ran to tell the disciples.” (28:8)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMarkColumn"]NO— “They said nothing to anyone; for they were afraid.” (16:8)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxLukeColumn, colspan: 2"]YES — “Returning from the tomb, they told all this to the eleven…” (24:9)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxJohnColumn"]YES— Mary Magdalene tells the disciples, “I have seen the Lord.” (20:18)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: CruxAltRow"]
[TD="class: CruxQuestionColumn"]After seeing the angels, whom does Mary meet first, Jesus or the disciples?[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMatthewColumn, colspan: 2"]Jesus (28:9)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMarkColumn"]Jesus (16:9)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxLukeColumn, colspan: 2"]the Disciples (24:4-9)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxJohnColumn"]Jesus (20:14)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: CruxTable, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: CruxQuestionColumn"]To whom does Jesus make his first appearance?[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMatthewColumn, colspan: 2"] The two Marys[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMarkColumn"] Only Mary Magdalene[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxLukeColumn, colspan: 2"] Cleopas and another[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxJohnColumn"] Only Mary Magdalene[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: CruxTable, width: 100%"]
[TR="class: CruxTerminalAnswerRow CruxAltRow"]
[TD="class: CruxQuestionColumn"]Is Mary permitted to touch Jesus after the resurrection?[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMatthewColumn, colspan: 2"]YES — “.they came and held him by his feet, and worshiped him.” (28:9)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMarkColumn"]Not mentioned in Mark[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxLukeColumn, colspan: 2"]YES — “Behold my hands and my feet…handle me and see….” (24:39; 1 John 1:1)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxJohnColumn"]No — Jesus said to her, “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father….” (20:17)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I apologize for the bad formatting, but this table comparison just shows some of the glaring contradictions. In some cases, just one gospel is the odd man out while the other three act in harmony. In other cases, all 4 seem to have a differing opinion. It is downright scary to see how wildly different these accounts are and really calls into question the accuracy of the gospels as a whole.

I'm wondering what people's thoughts on this are. Are you okay with the discrepancies? Do you not see them as discrepancies? What do you think about this?
Unfortunately most "Christians" could care less about this issue because the overwhelming majority of them don't believe they have an inerrant bible, for them this is just more proof. If we want to understand the accuracy and shear perfection of all four accounts, we have to believe our bible is inerrant because we have to believe every word that is said and every word that is not said.

Had the sun risen when the women came to the tomb?

In Matthew they came as the sun was beginning to rise, so yes the sun had partially risen.

In Mark they arrived at the sepulcher when the sun was rising, so again the sun had partially risen.

In Luke it doesn't say whether the sun had risen or not, only that it was early in the morning. Right now I am up early in the morning and the sun has not risen yet. Around 7:00 it will still be early in the morning and the sun will be risen.

In John it doesn't say that they CAME when it was dark, it says they cometh... that means they are in the process of coming. Is it any wonder why God chose to use to give his word to the English speakers in KJV English. It's the most accurate English language there is. Note what the ESV says, it says she CAME. When you read false bibles, you get inaccurate information and contradictions.

John 20:1English Standard Version (ESV)

The Resurrection

20 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.
So the answer is, They left for the tomb according to John while it was still dark. But they arrived at the tomb according to Matthew, Mark and Luke when the sun had risen... 0 contradictions.
 
T

Tintin

Guest
#27
You're right, except the nonsense about the KJV.
 

Agricola

Senior Member
Dec 10, 2012
2,638
88
48
#29
Oh what a surprise the King James Onlyists derailing another thread to promote their cult.
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#30
The Bible is not written chronologically. Things that are written are not always put in a neat linear narrative that we are accustomed to reading with other written works. In other words, the Bible has what I would like to call, "Inserted Unexplained Flash Backs or Flash Forwards" within it.

In Matthew 28:2-4 is a related flashback (With the guards and the angel); It is an interruption in the present moment of a quick description of a past event. For Mark 16:3-4 makes it clear that the women talked about how they would roll the stone away, but when they arrived, the stone was already rolled away. Then Mark 16:5 continues and says they found the angel sitting inside already. But Matthew 28:2-4 says there was a great earthquake and that an angel came down from heaven and rolled the stone away. Matthew 28:4 lets us know WHO this interrupting event in Matthew 28:2-4 relates to. It is speaking in relation to the keepers or the guards of Jesus tomb and their quick story. So verses 2-4 is a flashback with the guards (And not the women). These two events are merely related or tied to one another because of the appearance of the angel at the empty tomb.

Also, in Matthew 27:52-53 (Which is another event) is actually a flash forward or a description of a future event. For these two verses also interrupt up the current present event of the crucifixion and it describes a future event of how certain Old Testament saints would rise out of their graves after Jesus' resurrection.

For I believe that the time of when certain OT saints are risen out of their graves is when the 2nd Earthquake hits and when the stone is rolled away by the angel revealing an already empty tomb to the guards at night. For I believe Jesus was risen at 3:00PM on Saturday within the tomb, which would be 72 hours (or 3 days and 3 nights) exactly from the time He died at 3:00PM on Wednesday. For Jesus was in the heart of the Earth or Abraham's bosom (Paradise) with the thief on the cross. For Jesus said to the thief that He would be with him that very day in Paradise.

Anyways, hopefully this should demonstrate to you that the Bible has "Inserted Unexplained Flash Backs or Flash Forwards" within it. Therefore realizing this fact, it helps us to reconcile various accounts as given to us within the gospels.
 
R

Reformed_Baptist

Guest
#31
If any of you have read the four resurrection accounts found in the four gospels, you've probably noticed a few startling discrepancies.

Here are some of the more startling ones, and I apologize for the bad formatting of this table:

[TABLE="class: CruxTable, width: 100%"]
[TR="class: CruxHeaderRow"]
[TH="class: CruxQuestionColumn CruxTableHeader"]Q.[/TH]
[TH="class: CruxTableHeader CruxMatthewColumn, colspan: 2"]Matt.[/TH]
[TH="class: CruxTableHeader CruxMarkColumn"]Mark[/TH]
[TH="class: CruxTableHeader CruxLukeColumn, colspan: 2"]Luke[/TH]
[TH="class: CruxTableHeader CruxJohnColumn"]John[/TH]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: CruxTable, width: 100%"]
[TR="class: CruxTerminalAnswerRow"]
[TD="class: CruxQuestionColumn"]Had the sun yet risen when the women came to the tomb?[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMatthewColumn, colspan: 2"]It was toward dawn of the first day of the week. (28:1)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxMarkColumn"]YES — They came to the tomb when the sun had risen. (16:2)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxLukeColumn, colspan: 2"]At early dawn they went to the tomb (24:1)[/TD]
[TD="class: CruxJohnColumn"]NO—-Mary came early to the tomb, while it was STILL DARK. (20:1)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
I think careful analysis of the text reveals that there are no discrepancies.

Matthew 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.

Mark 16:1-2 Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen.

Luke 24:1 Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared.

John 20:1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.

Matthew and Luke simply say it was early in the morning which suggests that the sun had risen or was rising. That agrees with Mark's account - however notice that they all use the word 'came'. John, who talks about it still being dark uses the word went and he only refers to Mary Magdalene! However he then goes on to say that when Mary got to the tomb she was able to see the stone rolled away verse 2 implies that there was enough light for her to look into the tomb and see that the body was gone - so it must have been light by the time she got there.

So what we have if 4 different accounts of the women's movements - they all agree that it was about dawn when they arrived at the tomb, but John adds the detail that it was dark when Mary set off.

We can deal with your question about how many came to the tomb in a similar way, just because one writer mentions one or two people that does not mean (or even suggest) that they were the only ones there, no it means those are the ones that writer is focusing upon! John does not say Mary lone went to tomb, instead he focuses on Mary's experiences that morning.

Jumping down to your last question, you seem to be confusing the time line here, Mary is not permitted to touch Jesus at that moment, but later when she is with the other women she does touch him.

The question is how do we approach the word of God, are we looking for discrepancies? If so we will find them and no amount of argument from will dissuade the reader, or are we expecting it to be the inerrant word of God and therefore when we find things that don't quite gel together we merely take that as a sign that we need to work harder at understanding the text?
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
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#32
How many people came to the tomb and who were they?

I believe there were three, Mary, the other Mary and Salome. Matthew doesn't mention Salome, but that doesn't mean he wasn't there because we know he was there from Mark's account.

In Luke, we don't know because it just says "they". We can't say for a fact that the extra people mentioned in verse ten were at the tomb. It is quite possible that the two Mary's ran into the other women after they left the tomb and after they met Jesus.


Luk 24:10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
According to the bible every word is established at the mouth of two or three witnesses. Certainly God would follow his own rules concerning the witness of Jesus's resurrection.

2Co_13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
Also, it's interesting to me that two of the witnesses are female and one is male. There are three that bear witness in the EARTH... water and blood are similar and spirit is different. I don't know, I just think that's cool. I know... some of you don't think that verse really belongs in the bible.

1Jn_5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
There are also 3 heavenly witnesses to the resurrection in the gospel accounts, which would correspond to 1 Jn 5:7. That's the one I really want to talk about, it is the coolest of all the supposed gospel contradictions.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one
.
 

TheAristocat

Senior Member
Oct 4, 2011
2,150
26
0
#33
I'm wondering what people's thoughts on this are. Are you okay with the discrepancies? Do you not see them as discrepancies? What do you think about this?

Since I usually stick with online resources if I'm going to read the Bible in English, I would consult something like the Blue Letter Bible. And would probably go about reading these passages in the following way:


Had the sun yet risen when the women came to the tomb?

Matthew 28:1 says in the Greek "to grow light, to dawn." In other words it was still dark. Mark 16:2 uses the word proi, which indicates early in the morning. Specifically it equates to the period of time between 3:00 AM to 6:00 AM. And I don't think it says that the sun was already risen; I think it says that the sun was rising. Luke 24:1 uses the word orthros, which means "dawn" or "at early dawn." And of course John 20:1 just uses a word that means darkness.


How many people came to the tomb?

I also remember different Gospels recording Jesus as feeding different numbers of people with loaves and fish. But one Gospel records both events, and Jesus says (Matthew 16:9-10), "Don't you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered?"


Not all of the Gospel accounts record every event of all of the other Gospel accounts.


But for the sake of argument, John 20:2 records Mary as saying, "[...] we don't know where they have put him." This we implies that there were others with Mary when she went to the tomb even though John only explicitly mentions Mary.



Luke 24:1 reads, "Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulcher, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them." Who were they? And who were these others? Probably those who are mentioned in Luke 23:55-56, "And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulcher, and how his body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment."


Was the stone removed when the women arrived at the tomb?

The same tense of the Greek ginomai, which the English version of Matthew 28:1-2 renders as "there was", is rendered as "had been" in Matthew 11:21. So had there been an earthquake? Or was there an earthquake? Or was there an earthquake taking place? The English puts it in the past tense. The Greek also seems to put it in the past tense. So I don't believe the earthquake was taking place at the time when the women arrived at the tomb. Regardless, it doesn't say the women had arrived at the tomb; it just says that they went to look at the tomb. No indication is given that they had arrived by the time the narration covers the earthquake event.


Does Mary wish to tell the disciples what had happened?

It's not a question of whether or not Mary wished to tell the disciples what happened, but whether or not the women did tell the disciples what happened. I've chosen to disregard Mark 16:9-20 for quite a few years now, because of the controversy surrounding it. But even if we end the book on Mark 16:8 are we to assume that the women said nothing to anyone for the rest of their natural lives? Probably not. I think the logical conclusion is that the women were scared speechless for a while, and Mark focuses on that without explaining what they did say when their fear subsided. Some people think that Mark's original ending is lost to us now. If that is the case, then we have no context to tell us when or if they ever spoke of anything again. But, again, the logical conclusion is that they would speak again after their fear subsided.


After seeing the angels, whom does Mary meet first, Jesus or the disciples?

The word "women" in Matthew 28:5, 8 seems to refer only to Mary Magdalene and another Mary. However, if we take all of the Gospels together, then the word "women" refers to more than just these two women. And even when the word "women" is not used, it is still implied in John 20:2 with the word "we" that there is more than just Mary Magdalene in terms of female actors in this story.


I would suggest that Mary Magdalene is not included in the word "women" in Matthew 28:8 when the women leave the tomb, even if those are the only two women mentioned in the passage. And I would suggest in Matthew 28:1-5 that John 20:1-2 occurs where Mary first leaves the tomb and tells Peter and some others. Meanwhile the other women reach the tomb and are filled in by an angel on what happened, and they depart and meet Jesus on the way to telling the disciples.


This last point is really the only big conundrum that needs to be looked at more. The study is quite complex, and I may have made an error. Feel free to pick apart my logic.


I've come across a lot of proposed discrepancies in the Bible, and I've found a lot of solutions. But even if this last one is a discrepancy in the Gospel accounts it doesn't worry me too much. Given the number of agreements between them and their historical veracity, it wouldn't be enough to make me doubt their message. The Gospels were written by human beings - human beings with their own focus and perspective on events.

And talking about perspectives, this reminds me of the time where Matthew 27 records the color of Jesus' robe as being kokkinos (i.e. more of a scarlet red) while John 19 records the robe's color as being porphyrous (i.e. more of a purple red). But when you look at examples of both of these colors, then you see they are very similar. In fact, they can at times be the same color in modern terms. And what's most important about this is not that it's a discrepancy, but rather that it tells me that this was a real event that was recorded by two different eyewitnesses from different perspectives.
 
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actuqally, truqely, as long as you(pl) rely on english, you ain't got a chance of seeing the truth.

praise the father in heaven that he has hidden this from scholars, and revealed it to babes !

(actuqally, truqely, a six year old in israel (maybe,simply) understands this scripture (yahweh entrusted scripture to them, and those of them(anyone,anywhere) who accept,trust,and rely on messiah yahshua(yahweh's salvation) and he breathes on them, they have a very clear and perfect understanding) better than all the pastors gathered in one room, (or two (or more)) ) ...

You're right, except the nonsense about the KJV.
What about the ESV nonsense?
Oh what a surprise the King James Onlyists derailing another thread to promote their cult.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#35
actuqally, truqely, as long as you(pl) rely on english, you ain't got a chance of seeing the truth.

praise the father in heaven that he has hidden this from scholars, and revealed it to babes !

(actuqally, truqely, a six year old in israel (maybe,simply) understands this scripture (yahweh entrusted scripture to them, and those of them(anyone,anywhere) who accept,trust,and rely on messiah yahshua(yahweh's salvation) and he breathes on them, they have a very clear and perfect understanding) better than all the pastors gathered in one room, (or two (or more)) ) ...
So what's the truth about the resurrection.. how many people were at the tomb when Mary was there?
 
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krow

Guest
#36
Also ancient texts were not written to be as accurate as possible as modern day accounts of events are, each of the authors of the Gospels had a different take on Jesus and also a different audience they are writing too with different view point which is natural. If we had been living in that time and spent a little time with Jesus and wrote about Him we would all use different stories and aspects of Him that spoke to us and share that with other people. It's not necesarily a contradiction just as much as different writers noticing or being led to remember different things. It really shouldn't shake one's faith or anything.

When Matthew wrote his gospel it is largely thought he used Mark as a guide and elaborated on it, Luke and John did their own thing. Luke comes at it like a historian and physician more like a greek scholar than the others, its always interesting to see the differences in the authors take. Where the Holy Spirit played a hand in this is also something to wonder about, but it makes sense using human agents.
 
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krow

Guest
#37
Matthew wrote to the Jews, as well as Mark, Luke more for a greek audience, and John has a different focus but perhaps was reaching toward both groups?
 
Dec 26, 2014
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So what's the truth about the resurrection.. how many people were at the tomb when Mary was there?
i know less than a six year old taught truth in israel, and admit this freely.
and, it takes time and steps to learn truth from yahweh in yahshua, and requires a pure and a true heart - so with grace in yahshua, we will proceed, yahweh willing.

here's a very short start (from a quick internet search) to (start to) see (a very very small part of) what we're up against, if yahweh permits.... >>>

  1. John 20:11 Now Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept ...

    biblehub.com/john/20-11.htm‎

    But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb, and as she wept she stooped to look
    into ... Christ, in manifesting himself to those that seek him, often outdoes their ...
  2. Mary Magdalene and Two Disciples Visit the Tomb - Bible Gateway

    https://www.biblegateway.com/.../Mary-Magdalene-Two-Disciples‎

    Mary Magdalene and Two Disciples Visit the Tomb. Disciple at the .... Often in
    Scripture the person who encounters an angel is struck with terror. But if Mary felt
    ...
  3. The Three Visits of Mary Magdalene to the Tomb of Christ - Blessed ...

    www.orthodox.net/pascha/3visits.html‎

    There have been a number of attempts at demonstrating a concordance ....
    Coming to the tomb, this time both Mary's enter it, as the angel advises them to ...
  4. Empty tomb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empty_tomb

    ... describes Mary as making two different trips to the tomb, the first ... the third day
    was often the prime point for mourning in those days.
  5. The Three Marys - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Marys
    The Three Marys at the Tomb by Mikołaj Haberschrack, 15th century ... the name
    Mary to several women, some of whom have at times been thought to be the ....
    have led to different interpretations of how many and which women were present.
  6. How many women visited Jesus' tomb? - Rational Christianity

    www.rationalchristianity.net/num_women_tomb.html‎

    After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the
    other ... have multiple groups of women going to the tomb at different times.
  7. The Tomb of Jesus on Resurrection Morning

    www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/Easter-Tomb.html‎
    1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of ... 2
    And very early on the first day of the week, they come to the tomb when the sun ...
  8. How many men or angels appeared at the tomb? | Angels at the tomb

    https://carm.org/bible.../how-many-men-or-angels-appeared-tomb

    If there were two angels in the tomb, then there was at least one. ... the first day of
    the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave.
  9. The resurrection of Jesus - About Bible Prophecy

    www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/loj7.htm‎

    The morning after Jesus had been placed in the tomb, Mary Magdalene went to
    visit ... If Christ had not been resurrected and seen by many people (more than
    500), ... He appeared to his disciples and other followers, and also a second time
    to ...
  10. The Empty Tomb

    www41.homepage.villanova.edu/donald.burt/triumphant/02.htm‎

    Still, like all stories often repeated, it proved to be a tale that found some who ...
    Mary told the young John and the old Peter about the open tomb and they ran to
    ...
  11. When did the women go to Jesus' tomb? - Errancy.com

    When did the women go to Jesus’ tomb? - Errancy.comtomb/‎
    Apr 5, 2010 ... John, however, explicitly states that it was still dark at the time of the visit: ... When
    Mary started coming to the tomb it was still dark as in John, but by the ... to
    integrate the accounts belong just as much here as anywhere else. 9.
  12. THE SPICES AND THE VISITS TO CHRIST'S TOMB - Bible Research

    www.bibleresearch.org/observancebook5/b5w79.html‎

    "And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of
    James, ... Many believe that it took a considerable amount of time and effort for
    the ...
 
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Tintin

Guest
#39
Matthew wrote to the Jews, as well as Mark, Luke more for a greek audience, and John has a different focus but perhaps was reaching toward both groups?
Yes, that's right. Different books cater to different audiences and that's another reason there are different focuses and and details in the four gospels. An excellent point.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Also ancient texts were not written to be as accurate as possible as modern day accounts of events are, each of the authors of the Gospels had a different take on Jesus and also a different audience they are writing too with different view point which is natural..
I disagree. The bible is a masterpiece in accuracy. Although it's not easy to see the perfection in the gospel accounts of the resurrection, it is there but we have to dig for it.:)