We are called to be saints, not theologians

[mikeuk]

I posted the essence of his on yet another justification thread, but I think it deserves it's own.

it not time to move on from this? Some of us cannot agree. But What does it matter you consider you are once saved, always saved or not saved till the end? Would knowing the answer change how you live life , and live it to the full?

We will be saved by grace and Christ, not passing a theology exam, and if the belief that you are saved already , allows you the temptation to freewheel after that, and so by letting your eye off the ball, committing one more unnecessary sin, loving or helping one person less, or proclaiming the gospel one less time, you are not living live to the full in your calling to aspire to be saints.


It seems to me the life of witness through loving god and neighbour matter more than any fine point of theology of salvation, and that vocation of love should be the focus. And if those matters were our discussion hereall Christians could agree more on what really matters. We are called to be saints not theologists!


I hope we can all agree on the calling, even if we fall short, in my case by a very long way!

 

[ForthAngel]

I posted the essence of his on yet another justification thread, but I think it deserves it's own.

it not time to move on from this? Some of us cannot agree. But What does it matter you consider you are once saved, always saved or not saved till the end? Would knowing the answer change how you live life , and live it to the full?

We will be saved by grace and Christ, not passing a theology exam, and if the belief that you are saved already , allows you the temptation to freewheel after that, and so by letting your eye off the ball, committing one more unnecessary sin, loving or helping one person less, or proclaiming the gospel one less time, you are not living live to the full in your calling to aspire to be saints.


It seems to me the life of witness through loving god and neighbour matter more than any fine point of theology of salvation, and that vocation of love should be the focus. And if those matters were our discussion hereall Christians could agree more on what really matters. We are called to be saints not theologists!


I hope we can all agree on the calling, even if we fall short, in my case by a very long way!

I don't think we can separate a saint from the pursuit of sound theology. They tend to go hand in hand. I agree with your other points about witnessing and showing love though. We are told to study to show ourselves approved however and that iron sharpens iron. Some people while debating lose sight of simple discussion and it turns into anger which is also wrong, but for the most part, I don't see an issue with discussions and debates as we are all wanting to know God better and to understand biblical truths. On the other hand, we should all be sharing the gospel and witnessing as well, totally agree.

I think once a discussion drags on too long, it's time for everyone involved to move on for a bit. These verses come to mind:

Titus 3 English Standard Version (ESV)
Be Ready for Every Good Work

3 Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. 3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. 4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. 9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

2 Timothy 2
A Worker Approved by God

14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved,[c] a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some. 19 But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. 21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable,[d] he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.

22 So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. 24 And the Lord's servant[e] must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

 

[notuptome]

There is no unity apart from doctrinal unity. Either in the church or with the Lord. Amos 3:3 can two walk together except they be agreed?

Lost people hate doctrine because they cannot excuse their sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Reborn]

We are called to be children to the Lord.
Brothers and Sisters in Christ.
Helping in any way we can....just like how any family would do it.

 

[mikeuk]

There is no unity apart from doctrinal unity. Either in the church or with the Lord. Amos 3:3 can two walk together except they be agreed?

Lost people hate doctrine because they cannot excuse their sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

There can be unity in love of god and neighbour.

Who are you to judge who is lost? Better to focus on gods will.

 

[mikeuk]

We are called to be children to the Lord.
Brothers and Sisters in Christ.
Helping in any way we can....just like how any family would do it.

I would love to like your post, but for some reason " like" is not showing for me, just a smiley in your signature!

 

[notuptome]

There can be unity in love of god and neighbour.

Who are you to judge who is lost? Better to focus on gods will.

So say you but there is nothing upon which to make such a claim. You cannot love God or neighbor apart from what God has revealed in His word.

God has declared who is lost and who is saved. The Holy Spirit provides witness to the fact in the lives of the believers and exposes the pretenders.

The lost act like goats and exhibit the traits of their father the devil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SoulWeaver]

Well the OP kinda contradicts the title and itself too... first say it doesnt matter, then arguing reasons for own opinion in the OP... but we have all done it sometimes, have we not?

 

[Ugly]

I would love to like your post, but for some reason " like" is not showing for me, just a smiley in your signature!

There is a short delay before 'like' becomes available.

And these threads never solve anything. I've seen so many people post trying to stop the behavior that goes on in here and i've yet to see one even make a dent.

 

[Ukorin]

There is no unity apart from doctrinal unity. Either in the church or with the Lord. Amos 3:3 can two walk together except they be agreed?

Lost people hate doctrine because they cannot excuse their sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I disagree with certain doctrines of some of my closest brethren, but we walk unified in Christ. Agreement is in Christ.
There are core doctrines which are clear, and then there are "through the glass dimly" doctrines that we do not fully understand and yet accept and preach.
Many of the doctrinal divides are over the unclear teachings, such as eternal security, eschatology, traditions and ceremonies, etc. We can agree in Christ even when we disagree about these things. Some may place emphasis on these doctrines, but in the light of eternity, our unity, brotherhood, and citizenship are dependent on our faith in Christ, and the work of His Spirit in us. The bond is peace, not doctrines. We are told to resolve conflicts within the Church by the instruction to "agree in Christ".

Heresy is a different matter, as it is unbelief. We deal with it the same as open sin: openly rebuke, allow for reconciliation, and if no reconciliation comes... removal from the assembly until reconciliation is made.

It is difficult to apply all these to online forums, where heretics and unbelievers come and go, and are difficult to moderate,
but even when we debate and disagree among each other, I generally feel a general unity and common bond. But when we lose that understanding of common bond in Christ, we NEED to remind ourselves of it, and reconcile by openly agreeing in Christ before moving on... and using the ignore feature when dealing with unrepentant heresy.

(I'm not saying doctrines aren't important. They are! In there instruction we grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord, maturing us from milk to meat, from children to warriors.
It's just that we sometimes start feeding meat to babes, and then yell at them for choking...)

 

[mikeuk]

Well the OP kinda contradicts the title and itself too... first say it doesnt matter, then arguing reasons for own opinion in the OP... but we have all done it sometimes, have we not?

I think you misunderstood. I was not supporting my own position, but saying that "knowing" when you are saved or not is not helpful for living life anyway, so why worry?

 

[Angela53510]

I really have to take issue with the title. True, we are called to be saints, but that includes contending for the faith and having sound doctrine!

"I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: [SUP]2 [/SUP]preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.[SUP]3 [/SUP]For the time is coming when people will not endure sound[SUP][a][/SUP] teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, [SUP]4 [/SUP]and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. " 2 Tim. 4:1-4

"He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it." Titus 1:9

"But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine." Titus 2:1

"If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain." 1 Tim. 6:3-5

This is the BIBLE Discussion Forum. As I have said over and over, we need to post the Bible to defend what we are saying. I have seen several posts today in here, and not one of them had one single Bible verse!! Including this one!

Even the admonitions to treat one another as brothers and sisters would be better served with Bible verses, passages and quotes.

This forum has a very different purpose than the other forums. It is a place for sharpening our Bible skills and knowledge. It is a place for growing in Christ, as we learn more about the Word of God. It is a safe place to disagree, so long as it is based on Scripture.

If the OP had at least posted a few verses to support their viewpoint, I would be silent, as I am on many threads. My prayer is that we can learn to disagree in love, but that we would never give up sound doctrine.

As for being saints, well, that is up to God, now isn't it? He is the one who calls us, saves us and transforms us into his image.

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." 2 Cor. 5:17

"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." Romans 12:2

 

[Reborn]

I really have to take issue with the title. True, we are called to be saints, but that includes contending for the faith and having sound doctrine!

Dear Angela,
You know I love ya...we always go PM...ummm.....
You are on a slight rampage today
Sis?
I hope all is well?

Now....did I just shoot myself in public?.......never mind.....you're good......I'm going to run and hide.

 

[royalscot]

[h=2]We are called to be saints, not theologians[/h]
funny, i was thinking about this today.

without history, (the good and bad points etc)
how would anyone get to know or test any quote given by a new testament human\person.
this would also include scripture quoted from the old testament that jesus quoted, that came from the old testament.

ie how could a gentile between 32- 70 ad. and 70- 1500 ad

get his hands on, an old testament, that we have, in 2015.

given what we call the bible (christian) in 2015, never went to print till 1500 ad.

without the history theologians, how could we place jesus at 0- 32 ad (about)
to throw some speculations in the air.
so in other words, when people got this bible in print, at 1500 ,they, then had to translate it, to there spoken tough.
do you think they were concerned with history at this point.

or what a jew or gentile is.

the list go s on forever. to what they were thinking, when translating this book and this includes the romans who put into print.

how would a non christian jew get his hands on or have a new testament, if he did not believe in jesus. at the same time line. 32-70 70-1500 (ie he would at a guess, burn it).

history would also teach , without a root, its speculation. but the bible is hear in 2015.


food for thought.

 

[mikeuk]

And these threads never solve anything. I've seen so many people post trying to stop the behavior that goes on in here and i've yet to see one even make a dent.

I am sure you are right, but once in a while mentioning love of god and neighbour on a Christian forum rather than differences is surely a good thing even if it gets buried soon!

 

[mikeuk]

I really have to take issue with the title. True, we are called to be saints, but that includes contending for the faith and having sound doctrine!

"I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: [SUP]2 [/SUP]preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.[SUP]3 [/SUP]For the time is coming when people will not endure sound[SUP][a][/SUP] teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, [SUP]4 [/SUP]and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. " 2 Tim. 4:1-4

"He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it." Titus 1:9

"But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine." Titus 2:1

"If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain." 1 Tim. 6:3-5

This is the BIBLE Discussion Forum. As I have said over and over, we need to post the Bible to defend what we are saying. I have seen several posts today in here, and not one of them had one single Bible verse!! Including this one!

Even the admonitions to treat one another as brothers and sisters would be better served with Bible verses, passages and quotes.

This forum has a very different purpose than the other forums. It is a place for sharpening our Bible skills and knowledge. It is a place for growing in Christ, as we learn more about the Word of God. It is a safe place to disagree, so long as it is based on Scripture.

If the OP had at least posted a few verses to support their viewpoint, I would be silent, as I am on many threads. My prayer is that we can learn to disagree in love, but that we would never give up sound doctrine.

As for being saints, well, that is up to God, now isn't it? He is the one who calls us, saves us and transforms us into his image.

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." 2 Cor. 5:17

"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." Romans 12:2

Angela, I suspect anyone who cannot find the verses that command love of god and neighbour are struggling as Christians!
Do they really need quoting?

Jesus had nothing but contempt for the Pharisees firing fine points of biblical law at each other, whilst letting gods love slip through their fingers.

 

[notuptome]

I disagree with certain doctrines of some of my closest brethren, but we walk unified in Christ. Agreement is in Christ.
There are core doctrines which are clear, and then there are "through the glass dimly" doctrines that we do not fully understand and yet accept and preach.
Many of the doctrinal divides are over the unclear teachings, such as eternal security, eschatology, traditions and ceremonies, etc. We can agree in Christ even when we disagree about these things. Some may place emphasis on these doctrines, but in the light of eternity, our unity, brotherhood, and citizenship are dependent on our faith in Christ, and the work of His Spirit in us. The bond is peace, not doctrines. We are told to resolve conflicts within the Church by the instruction to "agree in Christ".

Heresy is a different matter, as it is unbelief. We deal with it the same as open sin: openly rebuke, allow for reconciliation, and if no reconciliation comes... removal from the assembly until reconciliation is made.

It is difficult to apply all these to online forums, where heretics and unbelievers come and go, and are difficult to moderate,
but even when we debate and disagree among each other, I generally feel a general unity and common bond. But when we lose that understanding of common bond in Christ, we NEED to remind ourselves of it, and reconcile by openly agreeing in Christ before moving on... and using the ignore feature when dealing with unrepentant heresy.

(I'm not saying doctrines aren't important. They are! In there instruction we grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord, maturing us from milk to meat, from children to warriors.
It's just that we sometimes start feeding meat to babes, and then yell at them for choking...)

I have no problem with the core beliefs but that is just what we are disagreeing over. The core doctrine of salvation by grace apart from works.

If you are not saved you are neither saint nor theologian. Christ is the foundation upon which we build. Our works are not the foundation upon which we build.

There is no virtue in any belief no matter how dearly it is held if it is unbiblical.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Ukorin]

I have no problem with the core beliefs but that is just what we are disagreeing over. The core doctrine of salvation by grace apart from works.

If you are not saved you are neither saint nor theologian. Christ is the foundation upon which we build. Our works are not the foundation upon which we build.

There is no virtue in any belief no matter how dearly it is held if it is unbiblical.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

But most of the time, even in the debate of "works vs faith" both sides generally agree that it is by Christ that we are saved, and by His Spirit that we do works and are sanctified.
In the practice, both sides agree: saved by faith in Christ, and called unto good works by His Spirit.

Debating the semantics is all well and good, but very few (other than the obvious heresies) actually go "too far" as to put faith in works to save, or to deny our calling to holiness and good works.

What I usually see is one side putting emphasis on working for the Kingdom, and the other side putting emphasis on being saved by faith.
The "workers" claim the other side is not working.
The "faithers" claim the other side has faith in work rather than Christ.
Neither side ACTUALLY is what the other side claims, and they openly say so.
If you ask a "worker", "do you have faith in Christ alone for salvation?" They would say yes.
If you ask a "faither", "do you believe you were called unto good works?" They would say yes.

Disagreement in emphasis, not in substance. Both agree in Christ... well except for the passerby heretics.

 

[Ukorin]

It's like two men standing on a mountain top, facing each other,
each warning the other that they are falling off the other side, and need to come to their side.
Yet both are standing firmly on the same mountain.

 

[notuptome]

But most of the time, even in the debate of "works vs faith" both sides generally agree that it is by Christ that we are saved, and by His Spirit that we do works and are sanctified.
In the practice, both sides agree: saved by faith in Christ, and called unto good works by His Spirit.

Debating the semantics is all well and good, but very few (other than the obvious heresies) actually go "too far" as to put faith in works to save, or to deny our calling to holiness and good works.

What I usually see is one side putting emphasis on working for the Kingdom, and the other side putting emphasis on being saved by faith.
The "workers" claim the other side is not working.
The "faithers" claim the other side has faith in work rather than Christ.
Neither side ACTUALLY is what the other side claims, and they openly say so.
If you ask a "worker", "do you have faith in Christ alone for salvation?" They would say yes.
If you ask a "faither", "do you believe you were called unto good works?" They would say yes.

Disagreement in emphasis, not in substance. Both agree in Christ... well except for the passerby heretics.

I'm not debating works verses faith. That is a false argument. I am stating that the bible teaches we are saved by grace. We are not saved by works. Faith is a part of grace not works. We have no faith with which to obtain favor with God. Our faith is inadequate. Only grace is sufficient and only through grace do we receive from God the faith to believe that the atonement made by Jesus Christ is able to save us from our sins and give us eternal life.

For the cause of Christ
Roger