ARE YOU A SLAVE TO RIGHTEOUSNESS?

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T

The_highwayman

Guest
#41
IOW, you're mad at anyone who doesn't rip half of the pages out of their Bible before posting?

II Corinthians chapter 5

[9] Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
[10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
[11] Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
[12] For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
[13] For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
[14] For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
[15]
And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

The Apostle Paul was motivated by BOTH "the terror of the Lord" in that he understood that we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ to receive for the things which we have done in our bodies, whether good or bad, AND "the love of Christ" which constrained him in that he understood that Christ died for all and that those therefore who live ought not to live for themselves, but unto Christ and others.

Like it or not (with many people here, it's obviously the "or not"), CHRISTIANS are admonished to "behold" (IOW, don't shut your eyes to the same as many regularly do) BOTH "the goodness AND severity of God":

Romans chapter 11

[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


I can assure you, based upon the revealed, Holy Spirit inspired Word of God, that God is NOT displeased with those who preach and teach BOTH His goodness AND His severity. In fact, He's greatly displeased with those who ONLY preach one or the other in that both approaches are deadly.
At what point do you feel it is appropriate to teach and preach about the severity of God? If you preach and teach the severity of God to effect salvation you will be fruitless...you might get a bunch of fear induced salvation's, but no real repentance conversions.

Paul also stated it was the goodness of God that brings men to repentance and the word also teaches us that by mercy and truth are iniquity purged, then by the fear of the Lord do men depart from evil.

Day of the Lord and judgement messages were huge in the 70's and 80's. They never really did much but solidify the self-righteousness and legalistic false doctrines we see today.

I have never been used by the Lord to lead someone to Jesus Christ using the severity of the Lord to convert them....I cannot count how many times I have seen people get saved and were convicted by the love , mercy and grace God has for them.

I usually let my Sunday School staff teach about the severity of God and only to those who could eat the meat of the word.

Preaching against something is far easier than preaching for something.....
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
#42
This is the same Paul who previously wrote to these same Corinthians...

I Corinthians chapter 5

[9] I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
[10] Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
[11] But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
[12] For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
[13] But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.


...so I understand what he was talking about.

nice swerve.....so tell us what he is talking about here?
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#43
That being said, brother JesusistheChrist, I take it you have come out from the world and separated yourself from all unclean things including television, sports arenas, even the department stores and malls or any place where you could possibly witness "filthiness of the flesh"? Wait - there's filthy sinners in church, too isn't there? And what about your work place? Are you unequally yoked (in agreement with) with unbelievers there or is your boss and all your co-workers holiness-filled Christians?
Hi, Violet.

When Jesus calls us, He calls us to "not be of the world":

"If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." (John 15:19)

He later clarified exactly what He meant when He said:

John chapter 17

[14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
[15] I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
[16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
[18] As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
[19] And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;


IOW, Christ does not "take us out of the world", but He calls us to be "sanctified" or "set apart" by or "through the truth" so that we can function within this world while being "kept from the evil" which abounds within the world.

Anyhow, to answer your questions, I watch almost no television at all and the little bit that I do watch is an occasional cooking show with my children or occasionally something like "Shark Tank" in that some of the things discussed on that show pertain to my current line of work. Even then, I shun much of what is shared there as I filter everything that I hear through the Word of God. Sports arenas? I haven't been to one in twenty something years. Department stores? That's a bit of a stretch, isn't it? If/when I go into one, then I'm there simply to shop for such necessities as clothing and, even then, I avoid, as much as possible, inappropriate displays and I've long been known for wearing headphones to block out the secular music which is normally pumped into such places. Bosses and co-workers? Well, as I trust that we both already know, the Bible does give instructions as to how Christians are to behave towards the same (in the context of "masters" and "servants"), whether they be saved or unsaved, so I really find this question to be unnecessary at best and off-base at worst.

VioletReigns said:
Or perhaps the Lord meant spiritually, as in our mind in Christ. Do you think maybe the Lord was telling us to separate our carnal attitudes from our spiritual mind in Him? Think about this - are you set free from sin because you believe - or are you set free because of Jesus' grace and now believe it?
It's not an "either or" situation, Violet. For example, we read:

"Abstain from all appearance of evil. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (I Thessalonians 5:22-23)

God's desire is that we be "sanctified wholly" and such includes our spirit, soul AND BODY. Also, although someone might be tempted to say, "See, God is the one who sanctifies you!", if we back up just a little bit in this very same epistle, then we read:

I Thessalonians chapter 4

[1] Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
[2] For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
[3] For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
[4] That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
[5] Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
[6] That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
[7] For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
[8] He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.


Although sanctification is impossible apart from the Holy Spirit, we have a part to play in this in that we can actually "despise God Who has given unto us His Holy Spirit" if we refuse His call unto sanctification or His call for each and every one of us to "possess his vessel in sanctification and honour". Again, as much as many professing Christians, even on this very forum, DESPISE such verses as the following, they're still in our Bibles for a reason:

Hebrews chapter 10

[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
[30] For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


CHRISTIANS can "count the blood of the covenant wherewith they WERE sanctified as an unholy thing and do despite unto" or despise "the Spirit of grace" by "sinning willfully AFTER HAVING RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH". Yes, CHRISTIANS can not only "do despite unto the Spirit of grace", but they can also "receive the grace of God in vain" (II Corinthians 6:1) and "fail of the grace of God" (Hebrews 12:15).

Anyhow, to answer your question, although Christ provides the necessary means and graces by which we can truly be set free from sin, we have a part to play in the same:

"But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you." (Romans 6:17)

Being truly set free from sin requires that "WE OBEY FROM THE HEART that form of doctrine which was delivered unto us" and part of said "doctrine" has to do with Whom/whom "WE YIELD OUR MEMBERS TO OBEY".

VioletReigns said:
Commit everything you to do as unto God and your thoughts will be established. In other words, do all for Christ, in Christ, with Christ. FOCUS ON CHRIST JESUS! He will keep your mind, giving you new mercies each morning, conforming you into His image from glory to glory, renewing a right spirit within you and the evidence will be Jesus reigning in you and you reigning with Him. He will do the performing, you do the believing.
Again, it's not an "either or" type of situation. IOW, Christ "will do the performing" IF we yield ourselves unto Him.
 
M

Marian29

Guest
#44
SLAVE TO RIGHTEOUSNESS

There is a considerable amount of time, effort and space spent in the Bible Discussion forum in heated debates and dreadful “admonition”. I’ve read elsewhere in the other forums that this particular forum has earned quite a reputation as a frightfully unpleasant place to come into. Many members refuse to venture into the Bible Discussion forum because the Word of God is most often delivered like a weapon rather than shared as food. And unless you’re considered a “scholar in the Word”, you may be silenced by condescending posts that attempt to prove you "unskilled" and in "grave error".

I don't believe any one of those who post here with words of fire and brimstone would ever attempt to physically stand in an assembly of believers and audibly proclaim in the same manner they do in this Bible Discussion forum. People take serious liberties behind this computer screen. I'm sure no respecting body of believers would allow brothers and sisters in Christ to breathe such fiery contradictions back and forth to one another. People, we need to pray and seek God about our motives before posting things on this site for the whole world to read.

I’m convinced that the majority of saints who post in the Bible Discussion believe they are doing God a service by defending the faith. They believe it is their calling to debate the Word and set people straight to “obey the law”. Yet they fail to see that human goodness, personal holiness, is NOT the reality. The reality is Redemption of Jesus Christ. That is the ONLY reality we need to be aware of.

Holiness is the result of Jesus’ redemption. We do not make ourselves holy to get redeemed or to maintain redemption - we are redeemed by the Blood of Christ Jesus and He makes us holy. He conforms us and makes us in His image through His work by the Holy Spirit He placed in us. Christ has taken up residence in us whereby He reigns sovereign in us and we now reign in Him, by Him and for Him only.

If we focus on ourselves, if we put our faith in our own efforts to be holy, we will never endure testing and trials, we will only come up short. If we dwell upon the weakness in ourselves or in others, repelled by the horrid sinfulness in the world, we have not allowed Christ to be the sole focus of our life. Jesus did not despise nor condemn the world. He came to offer salvation through His redemption. You must abandon your entire will to Him, even your identity. The only identity we have now is Jesus Christ. He is the only reality.

We do not separate ourselves, Romans 1:1 tells us that it pleased God to separate us to the gospel. We should have no interest in our identity or in our character or in our personal holiness. That is not anywhere near the life of Redemption. It is the work of God.

There must be reckless abandon to the Lord. We cannot walk in victory and deliverance while our interest is in our own character. We must be conscious of Jesus Christ, not of ourselves. When you tell people to focus on their own character, to make themselves obey, you are leading them away from the Cross of Redemption. We must be so totally surrendered to the Lord Jesus that we proclaim to the world Jesus Christ crucified - nothing else.

Romans 6
15. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16. Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17.But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19. I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22. But now that you have been set free from sinand have become slaves of Jesus, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

How do you offer yourself a slave to righteousness? By abandoning your own intellect and personal goals to be holy and reckon yourself a salve, captured and ruled now by the Spirit of Jesus Christ. YOU ARE GOD’s SLAVE! Nothing you can do will separate you from that fact once you are a child of God. You are His, not your own. He has set you free and you need to come to terms with that reality. You are holy because of Christ. Now walk in it like you believe it!

The Law in the Old Testament was to show us that we could never keep the law perfectly by human effort. Jesus tells us that if we keep the Law but then stumble in one little tiny thing, we are GUILTY OF ALL. Brothers and sisters, don’t kid yourself. You cannot even begin to make yourself good and holy. NEVER! It is God at work in you making you want to obey Him and then performing His will through. It is a mystery and an amazing grace at work because of Jesus Christ.

So how exactly is God keeping us from the law of sin? I only know that it is a FREE GIFT of GRACE, a miraculous Redemption that when I am focused on Jesus Christ and not myself, sin has no place in my life. Either I am looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of my faith, and am walking in liberty and joy – or I am conscious of my own sin, every day unnecessarily striving and struggling to keep my flesh holy.

Jesus has set us free from sin and has renewed our hearts to see only Him, His righteousness, His holiness, His glory, His wisdom, His mercy, His love for mankind. If you are focused on yourself, your righteousness, your holiness, your glory, your wisdom, your mercy, your love for mankind, you are lost, my friend.

I pray in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord that this Bible Discussion forum would come to the end of harsh debating and prideful boasting and begin teaching and preaching the Redemption in Jesus Christ. What joy and blessing in God’s sight it will be when new people come into this room and learn of Jesus Christ and His great redeeming love, and nothing more. May the Lord Jesus be glorified and honored and praised!

Grace of Jesus Christ to you all, brothers and sisters in Christ. And to those who have not yet received spiritual sight, I pray the Lord open your heart to receive His Light and Love. :)
Praise the Lord for the REAL freedom He gave to us through His love. :)
 
M

Marian29

Guest
#46
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
¶ Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.
For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.
For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, {even} your perfection. {perfection: or, reformation, or, restoration}
Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.
¶ Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.


2 Corinthians 13:5-11
 
M

Marian29

Guest
#47
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


2 Corinthians 12:7-9
 
V

VioletReigns

Guest
#48
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Where is the action in "BE CONFORMED", "BE TRANSFORMED", and "THE RENEWING of your mind"? Are you following me here? Notice, it doesn't say, "Do not conform yourself to this world, but transform yourself by renewing your mind", but that's how we read it ... and that WOULD be a "how to" instruction. But the language is written as a state of BEING.

No, this does not make what Paul said to be meaningless drivel, but instead it forces us to consider the miraculous reality of Christ exactly where we live (and where we need it).

Do not be conformed to this world.
Everything Paul wrote up to this point detailed the objections of the world's wisdom toward this life we have in Christ. This is the logic that is being pushed at us all day, every day. And the religious world has capitalized upon it, but has done so by veiling it with Christian lingo and especially Bible verses. There is only one reason why we even HEAR this passively phrased declaration: we have been given ears to hear!!

What does this statement do to me? It CONFIRMS the reality within me that needs to be reassured that I'm not crazy for questioning the “bullcr*p” going on all around me!! It touches me in the place of life that has been saying all along, "DON'T TAKE HEED TO THESE LYING DEMANDS!!" I especially need to hear this when I am the one repeating the lies back to myself or to others. These lies are all those fleshly objections to God's totally free made-in-Christ grace!!

but be transformed ...
This demands that the work is all of God!! In Galatians, Paul wrote this:
For we THROUGH THE SPIRIT, BY FAITH, ARE WAITING for the hope of righteousness. Galatians 5:5. Same thing being said in different words as Paul called up the imagery of Abraham's forced wait for the miraculous working of God to produce the fruit (Isaac) that He had promised!

"But be transformed" is a summary of the reality Paul described in Romans 8. What the law could not do Christ does IN us. It is all HIS doing because HE is our righteousness. Once again, WE HEAR THIS because of the Spirit who is in us.

The world's wisdom demands that we need to take care of business because it believes that nothing will happen unless WE do it. The logic of the fleshly mind scoffs at the absurdity that any real value is found in the expectation of God's promise. That old logic can accept a BALANCE between flesh and spirit, but it's nothing more than lip-service, which is the basis of religion.

"
But be transformed" is like having it said, "Stand still and watch the deliverance of God!" Hmmm ... sounds like a scriptural theme, huh? The truth of the matter is that God IS and HAS BEEN working His deliverance in us the whole time. This is the meaning behind those "works prepared for us beforehand."
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

For we, just like Abraham, continue to question the true value and reality of the works God has us walking in because the perception based upon fleshly appearances demand that nothing is happening, nor ever will.

One more part to consider:
but be transformed BY THE RENEWING OF YOUR MIND

How is it that we so quickly read OVER it as if it's not there? As a verb of action we could say, "I need to renew my mind", but as written with that word " the " in front of it we would be hard-pressed to make an intelligible sentence.


"The renewing" is a noun; as in, person, place or thing. I think it has been read as if it describes the course of action believers perform ... but that actually violates the passive "be transformed by ...". This is a call to the miraculous work of God, the hope of the very righteousness that God works within us.

Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet OUR INNER MAN IS BEING RENEWED DAY BY DAY. 2 Corinthians 4:16

There is no suggestion here that WE are the performers of this "being renewed", is there? This is a statement of the reality of the contrast between the constant decaying outward and the constant renewing inward. "Therefore we do not lose heart" Why not? Because of the reality of it, for God Himself is the sustainer of our hearts.

Remember, this is the same man, who in this same letter had just said: For God, who said, 'Light shall shine out of darkness,' is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 2 Corinthians 4:6-10

God is the one who shone in our hearts! The treasure is Christ, but it is contained in earthen containers. "The surpassing greatness of the power WILL BE of God and not from ourselves." Notice the contrasting language used to describe how this affected Paul as an earthen vessel: "AFFLICTED IN EVERY WAY ... PERPLEXED ... PERSECUTED ... STRUCK DOWN ... ALWAYS CARRYING ABOUT IN THE BODY THE DYING OF JESUS,"

You know, if it were not for the reality of Christ that would be a very sad story! Somehow, the reality of the life of Jesus renewing his inner man made it so "that the life of Jesus also may be manifested". For though afflicted he was not crushed; though perplexed, not despairing; and so on. In other words, Paul counted on this miraculous renewing of his mind, which is his inner man. This renewing does not stop ... but our eyes can become clouded so that we think nothing is happening, and then we become discouraged so that we question God's non-stop work inside us.

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, Romans 12:2
This is a reinforcement of the miraculous work of Christ within us (as detailed in the whole letter of Romans up to that point) to simply wait upon the righteousness of God as it works itself out in our lives despite all the sneering and ridicule from all the Ishmael's of the world as its collective voice says, "Where is this 'miraculous' God who can't seem to bring about anything of real value in your life? What does Christ do for you ... really? Why can't you measure up to those who far outshine you?"

Don't listen to these lies, even when you are the one repeating them!! God is the one who renews your mind ... count on this faithful and consistent renewing, for it is Christ himself who IS this to you!!
Stand still and watch the salvation of your God!!
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,779
2,934
113
#49
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Where is the action in "BE CONFORMED", "BE TRANSFORMED", and "THE RENEWING of your mind"? Are you following me here? Notice, it doesn't say, "Do not conform yourself to this world, but transform yourself by renewing your mind", but that's how we read it ... and that WOULD be a "how to" instruction. But the language is written as a state of BEING.

No, this does not make what Paul said to be meaningless drivel, but instead it forces us to consider the miraculous reality of Christ exactly where we live (and where we need it).

Do not be conformed to this world.
Everything Paul wrote up to this point detailed the objections of the world's wisdom toward this life we have in Christ. This is the logic that is being pushed at us all day, every day. And the religious world has capitalized upon it, but has done so by veiling it with Christian lingo and especially Bible verses. There is only one reason why we even HEAR this passively phrased declaration: we have been given ears to hear!!

What does this statement do to me? It CONFIRMS the reality within me that needs to be reassured that I'm not crazy for questioning the “bullcr*p” going on all around me!! It touches me in the place of life that has been saying all along, "DON'T TAKE HEED TO THESE LYING DEMANDS!!" I especially need to hear this when I am the one repeating the lies back to myself or to others. These lies are all those fleshly objections to God's totally free made-in-Christ grace!!

but be transformed ...
This demands that the work is all of God!! In Galatians, Paul wrote this:
For we THROUGH THE SPIRIT, BY FAITH, ARE WAITING for the hope of righteousness. Galatians 5:5. Same thing being said in different words as Paul called up the imagery of Abraham's forced wait for the miraculous working of God to produce the fruit (Isaac) that He had promised!

"But be transformed" is a summary of the reality Paul described in Romans 8. What the law could not do Christ does IN us. It is all HIS doing because HE is our righteousness. Once again, WE HEAR THIS because of the Spirit who is in us.

The world's wisdom demands that we need to take care of business because it believes that nothing will happen unless WE do it. The logic of the fleshly mind scoffs at the absurdity that any real value is found in the expectation of God's promise. That old logic can accept a BALANCE between flesh and spirit, but it's nothing more than lip-service, which is the basis of religion.

"
But be transformed" is like having it said, "Stand still and watch the deliverance of God!" Hmmm ... sounds like a scriptural theme, huh? The truth of the matter is that God IS and HAS BEEN working His deliverance in us the whole time. This is the meaning behind those "works prepared for us beforehand."
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

For we, just like Abraham, continue to question the true value and reality of the works God has us walking in because the perception based upon fleshly appearances demand that nothing is happening, nor ever will.

One more part to consider:
but be transformed BY THE RENEWING OF YOUR MIND

How is it that we so quickly read OVER it as if it's not there? As a verb of action we could say, "I need to renew my mind", but as written with that word " the " in front of it we would be hard-pressed to make an intelligible sentence.


"The renewing" is a noun; as in, person, place or thing. I think it has been read as if it describes the course of action believers perform ... but that actually violates the passive "be transformed by ...". This is a call to the miraculous work of God, the hope of the very righteousness that God works within us.

Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet OUR INNER MAN IS BEING RENEWED DAY BY DAY. 2 Corinthians 4:16

There is no suggestion here that WE are the performers of this "being renewed", is there? This is a statement of the reality of the contrast between the constant decaying outward and the constant renewing inward. "Therefore we do not lose heart" Why not? Because of the reality of it, for God Himself is the sustainer of our hearts.

Remember, this is the same man, who in this same letter had just said: For God, who said, 'Light shall shine out of darkness,' is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 2 Corinthians 4:6-10

God is the one who shone in our hearts! The treasure is Christ, but it is contained in earthen containers. "The surpassing greatness of the power WILL BE of God and not from ourselves." Notice the contrasting language used to describe how this affected Paul as an earthen vessel: "AFFLICTED IN EVERY WAY ... PERPLEXED ... PERSECUTED ... STRUCK DOWN ... ALWAYS CARRYING ABOUT IN THE BODY THE DYING OF JESUS,"

You know, if it were not for the reality of Christ that would be a very sad story! Somehow, the reality of the life of Jesus renewing his inner man made it so "that the life of Jesus also may be manifested". For though afflicted he was not crushed; though perplexed, not despairing; and so on. In other words, Paul counted on this miraculous renewing of his mind, which is his inner man. This renewing does not stop ... but our eyes can become clouded so that we think nothing is happening, and then we become discouraged so that we question God's non-stop work inside us.

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, Romans 12:2
This is a reinforcement of the miraculous work of Christ within us (as detailed in the whole letter of Romans up to that point) to simply wait upon the righteousness of God as it works itself out in our lives despite all the sneering and ridicule from all the Ishmael's of the world as its collective voice says, "Where is this 'miraculous' God who can't seem to bring about anything of real value in your life? What does Christ do for you ... really? Why can't you measure up to those who far outshine you?"

Don't listen to these lies, even when you are the one repeating them!! God is the one who renews your mind ... count on this faithful and consistent renewing, for it is Christ himself who IS this to you!!
Stand still and watch the salvation of your God!!
Technically, "being" is called the "passive" tense. It leaves no room for thinking we can do it to ourselves, it would have to be the "active" tense.

We are acted upon BY GOD. God does it to us, and we are passive. However, in the Greek, it is the passive imperative. Imperative is a command. That means that we are commanded to let God transform us.

I still have not figured it all out, but it certainly is something I give to God daily, the ability for me to let go of myself, and let him transform me. I have no way in my own power to save myself, or sanctify myself (transform).

But I do get so excited about what God continues to do in my life each day!
 
Dec 26, 2014
3,757
19
0
#51
jesus says plainly (to ekklesia) to be doers of the word and not just hearers.

doers of the word do not commit adultery, steal, bear false witness, have other gods, practice idolatry in any way, are not greedy, and so on. those who ignore the word and are not doers of the word do all of those things without thinking of repenting.

doers of the word give generously, share freely, live for the gospel's sake every day, consider others as more important than themselves, practice hospitality as a way of life(the poor know this and love them; and strangers/onlookers/neighbors/outsiders see this way of life, and know that they(the doers of the word)
are true followers of jesus by the (quite obvious) love they have for one another(pure and holy love; not fleshy, carnal, showy or sensual in any fashion).

doers of the word may look like legalists to outsiders who don't know grace in jesus.
doers of the word will be called both self-righteous and demonic by church goers who don't know grace in jesus and who don't have or live his life.
doers of the word may honestly expect exactly what jesus says to expect.
non-doers of the word should honestly expect exactly what jesus says to expect also, but they don't - they think they will be treated just like doers of the word, and god just says 'let them go on thinking so; don't worry about them - they will get what they deserve, just like jesus said. i've given them over to believe their own delusion because they loved darkness more than light. go on to others who will listen to the truth, who will turn from their sin and be doers of the word and not just hearers only. the harvest is ripe and ready, and the kingdom of heaven is at hand. bring in all who will listen.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#52
Romans 6 teaches, We are "enslaved to God" I am a slave to God. By God's doing.! The new birth is the sole work of God; the results is that God has made us doers of righteousness for the glory of Jesus our Saviour. We are the slave to the person we obey. Love to all, Hoffco
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#53
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Where is the action in "BE CONFORMED", "BE TRANSFORMED", and "THE RENEWING of your mind"? Are you following me here? Notice, it doesn't say, "Do not conform yourself to this world, but transform yourself by renewing your mind", but that's how we read it ... and that WOULD be a "how to" instruction. But the language is written as a state of BEING.

No, this does not make what Paul said to be meaningless drivel, but instead it forces us to consider the miraculous reality of Christ exactly where we live (and where we need it).

Do not be conformed to this world.
Everything Paul wrote up to this point detailed the objections of the world's wisdom toward this life we have in Christ. This is the logic that is being pushed at us all day, every day. And the religious world has capitalized upon it, but has done so by veiling it with Christian lingo and especially Bible verses. There is only one reason why we even HEAR this passively phrased declaration: we have been given ears to hear!!

What does this statement do to me? It CONFIRMS the reality within me that needs to be reassured that I'm not crazy for questioning the “bullcr*p” going on all around me!! It touches me in the place of life that has been saying all along, "DON'T TAKE HEED TO THESE LYING DEMANDS!!" I especially need to hear this when I am the one repeating the lies back to myself or to others. These lies are all those fleshly objections to God's totally free made-in-Christ grace!!

but be transformed ...
This demands that the work is all of God!! In Galatians, Paul wrote this:
For we THROUGH THE SPIRIT, BY FAITH, ARE WAITING for the hope of righteousness. Galatians 5:5. Same thing being said in different words as Paul called up the imagery of Abraham's forced wait for the miraculous working of God to produce the fruit (Isaac) that He had promised!

"But be transformed" is a summary of the reality Paul described in Romans 8. What the law could not do Christ does IN us. It is all HIS doing because HE is our righteousness. Once again, WE HEAR THIS because of the Spirit who is in us.

The world's wisdom demands that we need to take care of business because it believes that nothing will happen unless WE do it. The logic of the fleshly mind scoffs at the absurdity that any real value is found in the expectation of God's promise. That old logic can accept a BALANCE between flesh and spirit, but it's nothing more than lip-service, which is the basis of religion.

"
But be transformed" is like having it said, "Stand still and watch the deliverance of God!" Hmmm ... sounds like a scriptural theme, huh? The truth of the matter is that God IS and HAS BEEN working His deliverance in us the whole time. This is the meaning behind those "works prepared for us beforehand."
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

For we, just like Abraham, continue to question the true value and reality of the works God has us walking in because the perception based upon fleshly appearances demand that nothing is happening, nor ever will.

One more part to consider:
but be transformed BY THE RENEWING OF YOUR MIND

How is it that we so quickly read OVER it as if it's not there? As a verb of action we could say, "I need to renew my mind", but as written with that word " the " in front of it we would be hard-pressed to make an intelligible sentence.


"The renewing" is a noun; as in, person, place or thing. I think it has been read as if it describes the course of action believers perform ... but that actually violates the passive "be transformed by ...". This is a call to the miraculous work of God, the hope of the very righteousness that God works within us.

Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet OUR INNER MAN IS BEING RENEWED DAY BY DAY. 2 Corinthians 4:16

There is no suggestion here that WE are the performers of this "being renewed", is there? This is a statement of the reality of the contrast between the constant decaying outward and the constant renewing inward. "Therefore we do not lose heart" Why not? Because of the reality of it, for God Himself is the sustainer of our hearts.

Remember, this is the same man, who in this same letter had just said: For God, who said, 'Light shall shine out of darkness,' is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 2 Corinthians 4:6-10

God is the one who shone in our hearts! The treasure is Christ, but it is contained in earthen containers. "The surpassing greatness of the power WILL BE of God and not from ourselves." Notice the contrasting language used to describe how this affected Paul as an earthen vessel: "AFFLICTED IN EVERY WAY ... PERPLEXED ... PERSECUTED ... STRUCK DOWN ... ALWAYS CARRYING ABOUT IN THE BODY THE DYING OF JESUS,"

You know, if it were not for the reality of Christ that would be a very sad story! Somehow, the reality of the life of Jesus renewing his inner man made it so "that the life of Jesus also may be manifested". For though afflicted he was not crushed; though perplexed, not despairing; and so on. In other words, Paul counted on this miraculous renewing of his mind, which is his inner man. This renewing does not stop ... but our eyes can become clouded so that we think nothing is happening, and then we become discouraged so that we question God's non-stop work inside us.

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, Romans 12:2
This is a reinforcement of the miraculous work of Christ within us (as detailed in the whole letter of Romans up to that point) to simply wait upon the righteousness of God as it works itself out in our lives despite all the sneering and ridicule from all the Ishmael's of the world as its collective voice says, "Where is this 'miraculous' God who can't seem to bring about anything of real value in your life? What does Christ do for you ... really? Why can't you measure up to those who far outshine you?"

Don't listen to these lies, even when you are the one repeating them!! God is the one who renews your mind ... count on this faithful and consistent renewing, for it is Christ himself who IS this to you!!
Stand still and watch the salvation of your God!!
Romans chapter 12

[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
[2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
[3] For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

First of all, according to Paul, WE ARE TO PRESENT OUR BODIES A LIVING SACRIFICE, holy and acceptable unto God, which is OUR REASONABLE SERVICE. Again, as Paul had written earlier in this same epistle, we are the servants of Whom/whom WE YIELD OURSELVES SERVANTS TO OBEY and for anybody to preach or to teach otherwise is for the same to preach or to teach error:

Romans chapter 6

[16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
[17] But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
[18] Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


Ironically, apparently quite a few professing Christians know no such thing in that they discount or seek to totally remove the need for Christians to YIELD AND OBEY.

Furthermore, CONTEXTUALLY, when Paul said to "be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind", he was not only contrasting such a renewed mind with one who "thinks of himself more highly than he ought to think", but also referring back to what he had just finished saying in regard to said "highmindedness". IOW, Paul's "therefore" is the conclusion which we need to come to ourselves based upon what he had just finished saying, namely this:

Romans chapter 11

[13] For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
[14] If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
[15] For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
[16] For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[18] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[22]
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Yes, here is the "highmindedness" of which Paul had actually been speaking and it was a "highmindedness" in relation to those WHO DO NOT FEAR, WHO DO NOT TAKE HEED LEST GOD ALSO SPARE NOT THEM AND WHO DO NOT RECOGNIZE THAT THEY NEED TO CONTINUE IN GOD'S GOODNESS OTHERWISE THEY, TOO, SHALL BE CUT OFF.

Quite frankly, I read the posts of HIGHMINDED people on this very forum every single day and especially in relation to those who believe and teach the totally unscriptural heresy of "once saved, always saved". These were CHRISTIANS whom Paul was writing to, friends, AND THEY COULD BE CUT OFF IF THEY DIDN'T FEAR, IF THEY DIDN'T TAKE HEED AND IF THEY DIDN'T CONTINUE IN GOD'S GOODNESS or if they didn't RENEW THEIR MINDS by putting away such HIGHMINDEDNESS which would lead them to believe otherwise. Yes, seeing how we need to BEHOLD (open your eyes, friends) THE GOODNESS AND SEVERITY OF GOD, Paul instructed his readers to THINK SOBERLY (Romans 12:3). Well, somebody will get it...or else more pages will be ripped out of Bibles or more verses will be blotted out with a black marker as if God will somehow change His Word or not hold people accountable to that which is written.

Anyhow, CONTEXTUALLY, ^^^THIS^^^ is what Paul was referring to in that he was seeking to provoke the Gentiles NOT to be "highminded" against the unbelieving Jews who had been "cut off", but rather to offer their own lives as living sacrifices that some of them might be saved. Yes, Paul was provoking the Gentiles TO DO EXACTLY WHAT HE HIMSELF WAS DOING. That's reality, friends, and no fanciful, totally out of context interpretations are ever going to change the same.

Additionally, that Christians have a vital role to play in "the renewing of their minds" is quite evident when one also considers what this same Apostle Paul had to say elsewhere as opposed to pulling his words TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT and seeking to attribute new meanings to the same which were never intended by Paul. For example, we read:

II Corinthians chapter 12

[3] For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
[4] (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds):
[5] Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
[6] And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.


Why did God give US spiritual weapons by which WE are to "cast down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God and to bring into captivity every though to the obedience of Christ" IF HE'S THE ONE WHO IS ALLEGEDLY DOING EVERYTHING? It's sheer and utter nonsense, friends. WE are engaged in a spiritual war and WE are the ones who need to be using the weapons which God has so graciously supplied us with. To use an analogy, it's as if the following is being suggested to us by some here:

The United States government supplies its soldiers with weaponry, BUT THE SOLDIERS THEMSELVES NEED NOT DO A THING. No, the United States government uses the weapons for them and the soldiers just reap the benefits of the same.

Again, it's sheer and utter nonsense.

What, then, according to Paul, is the ultimate goal or purpose to attain in THE CHRISTIAN'S USE of such spiritual weaponry? Well, it's to "bring into captivity every thought to THE OBEDIENCE of Christ" or to bring us to the point where we truly have "the mind of Christ":

Philippians chapter 2

[1] If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
[2] Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
[3] Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
[4] Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
[9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
[10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
[11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
[12] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
[13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Again, this "lowliness of mind" is the antithesis of the "highmindedness" which Paul warns against elsewhere in his epistles. Yes, CHRISTIANS are to "LET THIS MIND BE IN THEM" (IOW, they can fight against or hinder the same as many professing Christians do today) "which was also in Christ Jesus" and such a mindset will ultimately lead a Christian to the place of WILLFUL HUMILITY ("He humbled Himself") and WILLFUL OBEDIENCE and it is accompanied with FEAR AND TREMBLING...as much as many professing Christians here and elsewhere apparently despise the same.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#54
At what point do you feel it is appropriate to teach and preach about the severity of God? If you preach and teach the severity of God to effect salvation you will be fruitless...you might get a bunch of fear induced salvation's, but no real repentance conversions.

Paul also stated it was the goodness of God that brings men to repentance and the word also teaches us that by mercy and truth are iniquity purged, then by the fear of the Lord do men depart from evil.

Day of the Lord and judgement messages were huge in the 70's and 80's. They never really did much but solidify the self-righteousness and legalistic false doctrines we see today.

I have never been used by the Lord to lead someone to Jesus Christ using the severity of the Lord to convert them....I cannot count how many times I have seen people get saved and were convicted by the love , mercy and grace God has for them.

I usually let my Sunday School staff teach about the severity of God and only to those who could eat the meat of the word.

Preaching against something is far easier than preaching for something.....
Are you serious (unfortunately, you are)?

Have you never read:

Romans chapter 3

[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
[11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
[12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
[13] Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
[14] Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
[15] Their feet are swift to shed blood:
[16] Destruction and misery are in their ways:
[17] And the way of peace have they not known:
[18] There is no fear of God before their eyes.

???

Why is this world so messed up?

BECAUSE THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE PEOPLE'S EYES...and you think that preaching and teaching the fear of the Lord is a bad thing.

God help you.
 
O

oldthennew

Guest
#55
I tell you a truth brethren,

my very first lesson was being introduced to the FEAR of the Lord,
He let me know that life and death were in His hands and that I was totally
subject to Him and that my opinion was of no consequence to Him when He layed me out.
no doubt His Love, mercy and grace, abound much more than His severity, but
there are some of us who in the beginning of our walk, need to be ruled with a big stick
and there are others of us who only need a stern word or a gentle persuasion;
even so, our Father always knows how and when to distribute correction to each and every one of us -
this also teaches us how to correct according to the proper measure and how to speak what needs to be spoken
and it teaches us to Love in the ways that He Loves us;
the recipe is, total surrender to Him and His will and let His Holy Spirit lead -
easy words, my wife and I have found that much practice is needed.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
T

The_highwayman

Guest
#56
Are you serious (unfortunately, you are)?

Have you never read:

Romans chapter 3

[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
[11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
[12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
[13] Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
[14] Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
[15] Their feet are swift to shed blood:
[16] Destruction and misery are in their ways:
[17] And the way of peace have they not known:
[18] There is no fear of God before their eyes.

???

Why is this world so messed up?

BECAUSE THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE PEOPLE'S EYES...and you think that preaching and teaching the fear of the Lord is a bad thing.

God help you.
Stop putting words into my mouth. It is evident you are simply parroting a pet doctrine and have no real understanding of any of the passages you have posted, which is why I asked you to explain one.

So tell me, who Paul was quoting in the passage you threw out here. Then tell me where Jesus said the same thing in the Bible.

Romans 3 is not about sinners in the least bit and those that do not fear God in Romans 3.18 are not the lost or sinners....

Before making accusations you should study it out a bit, instead of merely repeating what the Preacher has taught you for years. You are in error and complete error here.

ROmans is not a book of SIN but of Love, mercy and God's grace and you are blinded to see it's real truth.
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
#57
Romans chapter 12

[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
[2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
[3] For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

First of all, according to Paul, WE ARE TO PRESENT OUR BODIES A LIVING SACRIFICE, holy and acceptable unto God, which is OUR REASONABLE SERVICE. Again, as Paul had written earlier in this same epistle, we are the servants of Whom/whom WE YIELD OURSELVES SERVANTS TO OBEY and for anybody to preach or to teach otherwise is for the same to preach or to teach error:

Romans chapter 6

[16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
[17] But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
[18] Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


Ironically, apparently quite a few professing Christians know no such thing in that they discount or seek to totally remove the need for Christians to YIELD AND OBEY.

Furthermore, CONTEXTUALLY, when Paul said to "be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind", he was not only contrasting such a renewed mind with one who "thinks of himself more highly than he ought to think", but also referring back to what he had just finished saying in regard to said "highmindedness". IOW, Paul's "therefore" is the conclusion which we need to come to ourselves based upon what he had just finished saying, namely this:

Romans chapter 11

[13] For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
[14] If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
[15] For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
[16] For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[18] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[22]
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Yes, here is the "highmindedness" of which Paul had actually been speaking and it was a "highmindedness" in relation to those WHO DO NOT FEAR, WHO DO NOT TAKE HEED LEST GOD ALSO SPARE NOT THEM AND WHO DO NOT RECOGNIZE THAT THEY NEED TO CONTINUE IN GOD'S GOODNESS OTHERWISE THEY, TOO, SHALL BE CUT OFF.

Quite frankly, I read the posts of HIGHMINDED people on this very forum every single day and especially in relation to those who believe and teach the totally unscriptural heresy of "once saved, always saved". These were CHRISTIANS whom Paul was writing to, friends, AND THEY COULD BE CUT OFF IF THEY DIDN'T FEAR, IF THEY DIDN'T TAKE HEED AND IF THEY DIDN'T CONTINUE IN GOD'S GOODNESS or if they didn't RENEW THEIR MINDS by putting away such HIGHMINDEDNESS which would lead them to believe otherwise. Yes, seeing how we need to BEHOLD (open your eyes, friends) THE GOODNESS AND SEVERITY OF GOD, Paul instructed his readers to THINK SOBERLY (Romans 12:3). Well, somebody will get it...or else more pages will be ripped out of Bibles or more verses will be blotted out with a black marker as if God will somehow change His Word or not hold people accountable to that which is written.

Anyhow, CONTEXTUALLY, ^^^THIS^^^ is what Paul was referring to in that he was seeking to provoke the Gentiles NOT to be "highminded" against the unbelieving Jews who had been "cut off", but rather to offer their own lives as living sacrifices that some of them might be saved. Yes, Paul was provoking the Gentiles TO DO EXACTLY WHAT HE HIMSELF WAS DOING. That's reality, friends, and no fanciful, totally out of context interpretations are ever going to change the same.

Additionally, that Christians have a vital role to play in "the renewing of their minds" is quite evident when one also considers what this same Apostle Paul had to say elsewhere as opposed to pulling his words TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT and seeking to attribute new meanings to the same which were never intended by Paul. For example, we read:

II Corinthians chapter 12

[3] For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
[4] (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds):
[5] Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
[6] And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.


Why did God give US spiritual weapons by which WE are to "cast down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God and to bring into captivity every though to the obedience of Christ" IF HE'S THE ONE WHO IS ALLEGEDLY DOING EVERYTHING? It's sheer and utter nonsense, friends. WE are engaged in a spiritual war and WE are the ones who need to be using the weapons which God has so graciously supplied us with. To use an analogy, it's as if the following is being suggested to us by some here:

The United States government supplies its soldiers with weaponry, BUT THE SOLDIERS THEMSELVES NEED NOT DO A THING. No, the United States government uses the weapons for them and the soldiers just reap the benefits of the same.

Again, it's sheer and utter nonsense.

What, then, according to Paul, is the ultimate goal or purpose to attain in THE CHRISTIAN'S USE of such spiritual weaponry? Well, it's to "bring into captivity every thought to THE OBEDIENCE of Christ" or to bring us to the point where we truly have "the mind of Christ":

Philippians chapter 2

[1] If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
[2] Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
[3] Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
[4] Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
[9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
[10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
[11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
[12] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
[13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Again, this "lowliness of mind" is the antithesis of the "highmindedness" which Paul warns against elsewhere in his epistles. Yes, CHRISTIANS are to "LET THIS MIND BE IN THEM" (IOW, they can fight against or hinder the same as many professing Christians do today) "which was also in Christ Jesus" and such a mindset will ultimately lead a Christian to the place of WILLFUL HUMILITY ("He humbled Himself") and WILLFUL OBEDIENCE and it is accompanied with FEAR AND TREMBLING...as much as many professing Christians here and elsewhere apparently despise the same.
what you see is as highmindness is actually a position with Christ called Righteousness that you have no revelation or understanding about.

When you understand that you are righteous before God, you will fear him more on accident that you will ever do so on purpose and under your own understanding....
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
#58
Are you serious (unfortunately, you are)?

Have you never read:

Romans chapter 3

[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
[11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
[12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
[13] Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
[14] Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
[15] Their feet are swift to shed blood:
[16] Destruction and misery are in their ways:
[17] And the way of peace have they not known:
[18] There is no fear of God before their eyes.

???

Why is this world so messed up?

BECAUSE THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE PEOPLE'S EYES...and you think that preaching and teaching the fear of the Lord is a bad thing.

God help you.
I have a message series on the Fear of the Lord,that would scare all the self-righteousness right out of you.....Folks like you are like the children of Israel that refused to get close to God, because you are scared of him with a natural emotion, instead of understanding and fearing him in spirit.

Romans 2 says it is the goodness of God that leads men to repent...not the Fear of the Lord.....

romans 2.4-[SUP]4 [/SUP]Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#59
I've used the Rom 6:16-18 context many, many, many times and the usual crowd starts in with "you believe in a works based salvation".

Salvation is works based. One either serves:

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteousness

I serve (2) while many people's theology rules out serving obedience unto righteousness leaving them serving (1). Everyone is either a slave to wrong doing/unrighteousness or right doing/righteousness, no inbetween. God saves those that are right doing, Acts 10:35, those that worketh righteousness are accepted with God, Rom 10:3, submit unto the righteousness of God. No man can be saved if he remains a servant of wrong doing/servant of sin unto death so he must "obey from the heart that form of doctrine" which is "obedience unto righteousness" and become a slave to right doing.
 
Jan 31, 2015
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#60
Please read the post "if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation" You will understand how a person in Christ is a new creation His spirit soul and body are made new and righteous with God's righteousness. This is called justification. And when a person remains in Christ and lives a life surrendered to God, God'Spirit and God's righteousness drives his spirit soul and body in paths of righteousness and thus sanctifies him. If you would like to read the entire book online please visit goodnewsofgreatjoy.com
God bless