The Church and Anti Antisemitism,Can We Talk About It?

[kaylagrl]

I've been reading a lot of church history lately.I had learned years ago about Martin Luthers anti-Semitic views.Down through the years both Catholic and Protestant alike have been guilty of persecuting the Jews.It still goes on today in some circles.The teaching of the Replacement Theology did much to spur on antisemitism.The idea that the church has replaced the Jews as Gods chosen people.Both the Catholic and Protestant churches have since renounced this belief.

I dont want to offend anyone,I realize we all attend different churches.But we have a history that we must face and repent of.Jews were persecuted long before Hitler began.The horror of that is it is the Christians {not all} that gave Hitler at least the idea of separating the Jews in society.The Catholic church gave the yellow star of David to Jews to wear long before Hitler did.Both Catholic and Protestants blamed the Jews for deicide.The persecution of the Jews began in earnest when the replacement theology began to be preached. Jews were blamed for poising wells,child sacrifice, blood libels.

The belief that the Jews killed Christ and lost their place in Gods favor with the church replacing them led to antisemitism that led straight to the door of the concentration camps. When an atheist would say to me "Hitler was a Christian,Christians were responsible for the Holocaust" I would vehemently deny it.Now it seems I must apologize at least in part.At the beginning of Hitlers rise and persecution of the Jews like during Kristallnacht polls said 95 % of Germans considered themselves Christians.That is appalling to me!! I know,I know many people stood against Hitler,but not enough.Not nearly enough.Had the churches been teaching Gods chosen people were the Jews would the church have stood more firmly against Hitler and his madness? I wonder.

I still hear the replacement theology from time to time and it angers me so.A friend at my husbands work says "why are the Jews so important?" He proclaims to be a Christian.So why are we afraid to speak of our past? Its no wonder Jews dont trust Christians.But Christians certainly should be supporting the Jews and Israel.They are and always have been Gods chosen people.So,can we talk about it?

[h=1][/h]

 

[Willie-T]

I'm encouraged. "Repent", used quite accurately. There are a lot of things like that the church needs to repent about.

 

[kaylagrl]

I'm encouraged. "Repent", used quite accurately. There are a lot of things like that the church needs to repent about.

Ahhh brother,finally something on which we can agree! Thank you for your post!

 

[Willie-T]

Ahhh brother,finally something on which we can agree! Thank you for your post!

And, in this case, I also agree that we (the church) need to "change our mind", but also should be very ashamed and embarrassed for the treatment given most Jews.

Were Jesus to have appeared in this day and age, it could just as quickly have been the Christian church that would be calling Him blasphemous, and screaming for His crucifixion. I can just imagine the uproar if He put His arms around a Child Molester, or befriended a Homosexual.

 

[Jeff_56]

sorry kaylagrl, you spoke too soon. the insidious character in post 4 is worse than , well, beyond insipid.
there's probably no use trying to extrapolate or call out whatever is behind that thing misrepresenting the savior.

oh, yahshua's purpose certainly is to bring life, forgiveness, repentance, grace and mercy to mankind; but there's something in post 4 that is deceptive, like accepting of sin without repentance, as if abominable sinners would be accepted without even
their renouncing their devastating and horrendous sinfulness. those who hurt others and especially little children, as yahshua said - 'it would be better for them if they had never been born, or if a 2 ton stone was tied around their neck and they were cast into a deep lake'.....
in truth, they might before that , by miraculous mercy and grace beyond measure , turn to be forgiven,
but the gist of post 4 does not look like it conveys yahweh's grace and mercy to those who are chosen by him who receive life
when they turn to him to live his life.
if that one understands and means the sinners may receive grace and mercy and life in yahshua when they repent and are immersed in his name, let him, her or it say so,
but if they mean that jesus in any way will allow their wretched sinfulness to continue and also be acceptable in his sight,
then beware, for that is a fatal and eternal error.

Ahhh brother,finally something on which we can agree! Thank you for your post!

 

[Willie-T]

sorry kaylagrl, you spoke too soon. the insidious character in post 4 is worse than , well, beyond insipid.
there's probably no use trying to extrapolate or call out whatever is behind that thing misrepresenting the savior.

oh, yahshua's purpose certainly is to bring life, forgiveness, repentance, grace and mercy to mankind; but there's something in post 4 that is deceptive, like accepting of sin without repentance, as if abominable sinners would be accepted without even
their renouncing their devastating and horrendous sinfulness. those who hurt others and especially little children, as yahshua said - 'it would be better for them if they had never been born, or if a 2 ton stone was tied around their neck and they were cast into a deep lake'.....
in truth, they might before that , by miraculous mercy and grace beyond measure , turn to be forgiven,
but the gist of post 4 does not look like it conveys yahweh's grace and mercy to those who are chosen by him who receive life
when they turn to him to live his life.
if that one understands and means the sinners may receive grace and mercy and life in yahshua when they repent and are immersed in his name, let him, her or it say so,
but if they mean that jesus in any way will allow their wretched sinfulness to continue and also be acceptable in his sight,
then beware, for that is a fatal and eternal error.

Be very careful when you put qualifications upon whom Christ receives. You may have to answer for that one day. Nothing in the Bible says God loves everyone, except........ That is our own prejudicial judgment showing. And, that same Bible says He loved each one WHILE THEY WERE YET SINNNERS.

BTW, that's all of us, you and me, too.

 

[kaylagrl]

sorry kaylagrl, you spoke too soon. the insidious character in post 4 is worse than , well, beyond insipid.
there's probably no use trying to extrapolate or call out whatever is behind that thing misrepresenting the savior.

oh, yahshua's purpose certainly is to bring life, forgiveness, repentance, grace and mercy to mankind; but there's something in post 4 that is deceptive, like accepting of sin without repentance, as if abominable sinners would be accepted without even
their renouncing their devastating and horrendous sinfulness. those who hurt others and especially little children, as yahshua said - 'it would be better for them if they had never been born, or if a 2 ton stone was tied around their neck and they were cast into a deep lake'.....
in truth, they might before that , by miraculous mercy and grace beyond measure , turn to be forgiven,
but the gist of post 4 does not look like it conveys yahweh's grace and mercy to those who are chosen by him who receive life
when they turn to him to live his life.
if that one understands and means the sinners may receive grace and mercy and life in yahshua when they repent and are immersed in his name, let him, her or it say so,
but if they mean that jesus in any way will allow their wretched sinfulness to continue and also be acceptable in his sight,
then beware, for that is a fatal and eternal error.

I really dont want to derail this thread into the repentance issue.We've beat that to death on another thread.I know how Willie T believes.I want to discuss the past history of the church,how the replacement theology led to antisemitism and how the church needs to see that and be careful of how they treat the Jews in the future.

 

[Sophia]

People twist good doctrine. Rejecting Judaism as God's Chosen religion does not equate to persecution.
Judaism is an enemy of the Gospel, and we are told how to treat our enemies: with love.

 

[Willie-T]

Well, one basic thing is that Christians did not replace Jews. Instead, faith replaced sacrifice.... whether the person was a Jew or Gentile.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

i am from Sephardic Semite ancestry on my dad's side. My ancestors left Poland to come to this country in the mid 1800's due to policies that were enacted against them by the Austrian government (they had jurisdiction in the part of Poland they lived in) that took the right of poor Jews to work trades, practice their religion and sustain a decent living. The well off Jews who took the deal from the Austrian government and were allowed to keep their full rights to work and practice religion but the poor were moved into ghettos long before Hitler and co. invaded Poland and well before WWI. Lot's of history to explore there,.......


"In the part of Poland which was governed by Austria, the basic legal regulations concerning Jews were introduced during the late 18th century. They restricted the number of occupations that Jews were allowed to perform (for example they were forbidden to be chemists, brewers or flour-millers), engaging in trade was limited and some of the Jews were forced to move from country to towns. It should be added that some towns still enjoyed the privilege of de non tolerandis Judaeis, such asBiala, Jaslo, Wieliczka and Zywiec. In others, the occupation authorities forced the Jews to live in special quarters, ghettos, in the cities of Lvov, Nowy Sacz and Tarnow. These new regulations, which were introduced as a ''progressive reform'', contributed to the worsening of the living conditions of a large part of Jewish society. According to estimates, in the 1820's in Galicia over forty per cent of all Jews had no permanent employment thus forming the proletariat (Luftmenshen) who lived ''from the air''.

These restrictions applied above all to the poor strata whom the Austrian authorities thought to be a troublesome element. On the other hand, rich entrepreneurs enjoyed a relatively wide scope of freedom of activity. Thus this policy led to the intensification of material and social differences among the Jews. While certain individuals managed to acquire riches, the overwhelming majority lived in poverty.
Jewish merchants played important role in Galicia. Major trade centers were Lvov and Brody. The latter became a large commercial center in Central Europe due to its convenient location across communication routes and to it acquiring, in the first half of the 19th century, customs privileges which promoted trade with Russia."


The struggle of rich Jew vs poor Jew has went on since God brought the children of Israel into the promised land. My ancestors were so angry at their brothers and sisters for doing this that they raised their children Roman Catholic, left Judaism and their past behind them and decided to live as Americans once arriving here. When i was younger i often wondered why every male ancestor on my dad's side going back 4 generations had worked 30-40 years before retiring but have come to understand why they did that. A article explaining what happened there in Poland that seems to have been a catalyst for WWI and WWII is available if you would like to see how it started to go bad after a 1000 years of being a temporary Jewish homeland in Poland here.


As far as Antisemitism that we have experienced since my ancestors arrived here....... My uncle was mentally tortured by his sgt. in the army in the 50's. He goes to the V/A now and receives psychiatric help and meds for being called "Jew boy" and for being tortured by those cruel men just for having a Jewish last name, dark brown hair and blue eyes, It was hard for him to accept then as he did not have knowledge of his Jewish ancestry and thought he was just a Polish/American guy in his early 20's but came to realize later why they did that to him after piecing together our past.

I have experienced hatred from people who have had the same kinds of prejudices taught to them and passed down,( my mom's side is of Scottish ancestry so my facial features aren't as noticeable at least until you see my nose from the side lol.) Nowadays i get a lot of could shoulder....... usually from Hebrew roots people who aren't of Hebrew ancestry but are offended when you don't dance to their piping's......or from other people here that pretend to support Israel and Jewish people but practice bigotry towards us by mocking Jewish culture. I'm certain that God loves everyone Jew or not and offers them the same reward for faith in Jesus Christ, eternal salvation. i don't dislike those who do these things or hate them but i wish they would take into consideration what we as a people have had to go through on our way back to God through Jesus Christ and realize we are all not perfect. If your ancestors did something horrible i would not blame you personally for their actions nor the whole race of people you belong to. Yes the Jews murdered Christ but they also laid their lives down to spread the Gospel.

 

[kaylagrl]

People twist good doctrine. Rejecting Judaism as God's Chosen religion does not equate to persecution.
Judaism is an enemy of the Gospel, and we are told how to treat our enemies: with love.

Rejecting Judaism is not what I am talking about.Of course a Christian doesn't believe the way a Jew does.I'm talking about the church replacing themselves as the chosen instead of the Jews.Believing they have the blessings instead of the Jews.I'm talking about persecuting the Jesus for being Christ killers.That is the issue.

I didn't not say Judaism is Gods chosen religion,I said they are Gods chosen people.And Judaism is not an enemy of the gospel.Christians have the Jews to thank for the Bible,for the prophets,and for Jesus himself.The first Christians were Jewish.Now some have not yet come to believe in Christ but they will.They are blinded for a time until the Gentiles come in.Then they will believe.Some argue not all will be saved but many Jews will come to Christ either way.Those who bless the Jews are blessed and those who curse them are cursed.

 

[kaylagrl]

i am from Sephardic Semite ancestry on my dad's side. My ancestors left Poland to come to this country in the mid 1800's due to policies that were enacted against them by the Austrian government (they had jurisdiction in the part of Poland they lived in) that took the right of poor Jews to work trades, practice their religion and sustain a decent living. The well off Jews who took the deal from the Austrian government and were allowed to keep their full rights to work and practice religion but the poor were moved into ghettos long before Hitler and co. invaded Poland and well before WWI. Lot's of history to explore there,.......


"In the part of Poland which was governed by Austria, the basic legal regulations concerning Jews were introduced during the late 18th century. They restricted the number of occupations that Jews were allowed to perform (for example they were forbidden to be chemists, brewers or flour-millers), engaging in trade was limited and some of the Jews were forced to move from country to towns. It should be added that some towns still enjoyed the privilege of de non tolerandis Judaeis, such asBiala, Jaslo, Wieliczka and Zywiec. In others, the occupation authorities forced the Jews to live in special quarters, ghettos, in the cities of Lvov, Nowy Sacz and Tarnow. These new regulations, which were introduced as a ''progressive reform'', contributed to the worsening of the living conditions of a large part of Jewish society. According to estimates, in the 1820's in Galicia over forty per cent of all Jews had no permanent employment thus forming the proletariat (Luftmenshen) who lived ''from the air''.

These restrictions applied above all to the poor strata whom the Austrian authorities thought to be a troublesome element. On the other hand, rich entrepreneurs enjoyed a relatively wide scope of freedom of activity. Thus this policy led to the intensification of material and social differences among the Jews. While certain individuals managed to acquire riches, the overwhelming majority lived in poverty.
Jewish merchants played important role in Galicia. Major trade centers were Lvov and Brody. The latter became a large commercial center in Central Europe due to its convenient location across communication routes and to it acquiring, in the first half of the 19th century, customs privileges which promoted trade with Russia."


The struggle of rich Jew vs poor Jew has went on since God brought the children of Israel into the promised land. My ancestors were so angry at their brothers and sisters for doing this that they raised their children Roman Catholic, left Judaism and their past behind them and decided to live as Americans once arriving here. When i was younger i often wondered why every male ancestor on my dad's side going back 4 generations had worked 30-40 years before retiring but have come to understand why they did that. A article explaining what happened there in Poland that seems to have been a catalyst for WWI and WWII is available if you would like to see how it started to go bad after a 1000 years of being a temporary Jewish homeland in Poland here.


As far as Antisemitism that we have experienced since my ancestors arrived here....... My uncle was mentally tortured by his sgt. in the army in the 50's. He goes to the V/A now and receives psychiatric help and meds for being called "Jew boy" and for being tortured by those cruel men just for having a Jewish last name, dark brown hair and blue eyes, It was hard for him to accept then as he did not have knowledge of his Jewish ancestry and thought he was just a Polish/American guy in his early 20's but came to realize later why they did that to him after piecing together our past.

I have experienced hatred from people who have had the same kinds of prejudices taught to them and passed down,( my mom's side is of Scottish ancestry so my facial features aren't as noticeable at least until you see my nose from the side lol.) Nowadays i get a lot of could shoulder....... usually from Hebrew roots people who aren't of Hebrew ancestry but are offended when you don't dance to their piping's......or from other people here that pretend to support Israel and Jewish people but practice bigotry towards us by mocking Jewish culture. I'm certain that God loves everyone Jew or not and offers them the same reward for faith in Jesus Christ, eternal salvation. i don't dislike those who do these things or hate them but i wish they would take into consideration what we as a people have had to go through on our way back to God through Jesus Christ and realize we are all not perfect. If your ancestors did something horrible i would not blame you personally for their actions nor the whole race of people you belong to. Yes the Jews murdered Christ but they also laid their lives down to spread the Gospel.

I believe some,some Jews killed Christ.The high priests hated him for blasphemy but to call the Jews Christ killers is wrong.I was brought up in a Christian home and we were taught that our sins nailed Christ to the cross.He died as a sacrifice,for us.His blood was on our hands.I was never taught Jews were Christ killers.And I think that belief was why so many Jews were persecuted by Christians,so called.People believed they deserved punishment,and many stood silent as the died by the thousands in death camps. Over 6 million Jews blood are on the hands of Christians who stood silent as Gods chosen were massacred.

 

[Willie-T]

Rejecting Judaism is not what I am talking about.Of course a Christian doesn't believe the way a Jew does.I'm talking about the church replacing themselves as the chosen instead of the Jews.Believing they have the blessings instead of the Jews.I'm talking about persecuting the Jesus for being Christ killers.That is the issue.

I didn't not say Judaism is Gods chosen religion,I said they are Gods chosen people.And Judaism is not an enemy of the gospel.Christians have the Jews to thank for the Bible,for the prophets,and for Jesus himself.The first Christians were Jewish.Now some have not yet come to believe in Christ but they will.They are blinded for a time until the Gentiles come in.Then they will believe.Some argue not all will be saved but many Jews will come to Christ either way.Those who bless the Jews are blessed and those who curse them are cursed.

There is some very interesting reading in the NT concerning these changes.... believe it, or not, those times are referred to as "The Wrath of God, or "God's Wrath", depending upon the version you read. THAT will blow a lot of minds of the people who only understand God's wrath as killing and destroying.

 

[Sophia]

Rejecting Judaism is not what I am talking about.Of course a Christian doesn't believe the way a Jew does.I'm talking about the church replacing themselves as the chosen instead of the Jews.Believing they have the blessings instead of the Jews.I'm talking about persecuting the Jesus for being Christ killers.That is the issue.

I didn't not say Judaism is Gods chosen religion,I said they are Gods chosen people.And Judaism is not an enemy of the gospel.Christians have the Jews to thank for the Bible,for the prophets,and for Jesus himself.The first Christians were Jewish.Now some have not yet come to believe in Christ but they will.They are blinded for a time until the Gentiles come in.Then they will believe.Some argue not all will be saved but many Jews will come to Christ either way.Those who bless the Jews are blessed and those who curse them are cursed.

Paul clearly states that Judaism is an enemy of the Gospel. It is also a false religion. Modern day Judaism does not represent the worship of the One True God, but is worshipping a false God. If they worshipped the True God, they would accept and worship Jesus Christ. The Epistles tell us clearly that those who follow Judaism are not even to be called true Jews.

You need to separate the "ethnic group" from the religion. The Jewish religion is Babylon.
The Jewish people are divided between Believing and unbelieving.
The Believing Jews we accept as brethren, and they are no longer to be considered Jews, as they are now in Christ, and such dividing walls are broken down in Christ.
The unbelieving Jews we view as a mission field, to spread the Good News to, in word and deed.

We have been grafted into the Vine, side by side with Israel(the OT Saints). There is no more distinction between Jew and Gentile. Such labels are done away with. Without labels, there is no basis for persecution. Those who persecute don't believe what they claim to believe.

In this dispensation, there is no such thing as the "Jew" label in a physical sense, except that it is a false label.

"Replacement Theology" is not a correct phrase, as the Truth is "Continuation Theology" and the Church is the continuation of Israel, by being grafted into it.

 

[Dude653]

Christianity is rooted in Judaism but it has been perverted and paganized by denominations

 

[kaylagrl]

Paul clearly states that Judaism is an enemy of the Gospel. It is also a false religion. Modern day Judaism does not represent the worship of the One True God, but is worshipping a false God. If they worshipped the True God, they would accept and worship Jesus Christ. The Epistles tell us clearly that those who follow Judaism are not even to be called true Jews.

You need to separate the "ethnic group" from the religion. The Jewish religion is Babylon.
The Jewish people are divided between Believing and unbelieving.
The Believing Jews we accept as brethren, and they are no longer to be considered Jews, as they are now in Christ, and such dividing walls are broken down in Christ.
The unbelieving Jews we view as a mission field, to spread the Good News to, in word and deed.

We have been grafted into the Vine, side by side with Israel(the OT Saints). There is no more distinction between Jew and Gentile. Such labels are done away with. Without labels, there is no basis for persecution. Those who persecute don't believe what they claim to believe.

In this dispensation, there is no such thing as the "Jew" label in a physical sense, except that it is a false label.

"Replacement Theology" is not a correct phrase, as the Truth is "Continuation Theology" and the Church is the continuation of Israel, by being grafted into it.

Romans says- As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h]receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[kaylagrl]

Paul clearly states that Judaism is an enemy of the Gospel. It is also a false religion. Modern day Judaism does not represent the worship of the One True God, but is worshipping a false God. If they worshipped the True God, they would accept and worship Jesus Christ. The Epistles tell us clearly that those who follow Judaism are not even to be called true Jews.

You need to separate the "ethnic group" from the religion. The Jewish religion is Babylon.
The Jewish people are divided between Believing and unbelieving.
The Believing Jews we accept as brethren, and they are no longer to be considered Jews, as they are now in Christ, and such dividing walls are broken down in Christ.
The unbelieving Jews we view as a mission field, to spread the Good News to, in word and deed.

We have been grafted into the Vine, side by side with Israel(the OT Saints). There is no more distinction between Jew and Gentile. Such labels are done away with. Without labels, there is no basis for persecution. Those who persecute don't believe what they claim to believe.

In this dispensation, there is no such thing as the "Jew" label in a physical sense, except that it is a false label.

"Replacement Theology" is not a correct phrase, as the Truth is "Continuation Theology" and the Church is the continuation of Israel, by being grafted into it.

In anything I have studied it is called Replacement Theology.Either way the church has not replaced the Jewish nation nor the Jews.They are still Gods chosen people.As Romans 11 makes clear.

 

[Sophia]

Romans says- As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h]receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Full agreement with the Scripture there, but not necessarily with the emphasis you placed. Based on your underlines it seems like you are taking a "universal salvation to all hereditary Jews" perspective. God promises to save a remnant.
Just as He speaks of the remnant when He says He will "save the whole world".
You have to remember that being a Jew was never a genetic thing. The Promise is to a genetic seed is fulfilled in Christ. As His Bride, we have been adopted into His line: the line of Judah, the line of David, and the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob(Israel). Those who circumcise the flesh alone are not of this line; but only those who are circumcised of heart.
Being God's Chosen People was never genetic. It was always through having faith like Abraham.

 

[Sophia]

In anything I have studied it is called Replacement Theology.Either way the church has not replaced the Jewish nation nor the Jews.They are still Gods chosen people.As Romans 11 makes clear.

If you study strawman arguments, then of course they use the harshest and least valid label they can find.
If you only study the words of people within your own circle, you will never see anything you don't already agree with.

 

[Sophia]

Basicly, you can't be "Chosen People of God" and then end up in hell. Either all Jews go to Heaven, or that label (as a religious/ethnic group) is just a man-made label and has no bearing on Scripture or prophecy.
There are many African tribes that claim to be of the tribe of Judah or other tribes, but no one ever defends them.
Claiming to be of genetic descent, simply because they follow a variant of the OT religion, does not validate the claim.

Those in Christ are true Jews and the seed of Abraham, and those outside of Christ are illegitimate children. Our calling is to give them the Gospel, so they can be adopted into the very line they fraudulently claim. There should be no ill will in spreading the love of the Gospel to the lost, and no excuse or rationale for persecution. Only love! and that love is self-sacrificing, patient, and gentle.
They are in the same boat we were in before we got saved. By God's grace alone we have been brought in! We should passionately work to show His grace to others, especially to those who are deceived into thinking they already have it without Christ.

There is no need to further their delusion by affirming to them that they are God's People. Does that help them accept the Gospel, if they think they already are "all set", and then we say "yup, you don't need Christ to become a child of God, cuz you already are one".
We are called to help them see through the delusion, even though it is a strong one.
It is not loving to lie to someone. Tell them the Truth next time you minister to them. Genetics don't matter, only Christ!