Descended from Israel vs Belonging to Israel

[Sophia]

Being a part of Israel is not about genetics:

Romans 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but“Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Being part of Israel is not about certain ceremonies or works:

11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—

Being part of Israel is not about assimilating with a certain culture:

24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

Being part of Israel is not about physical birth, but spiritual birth:

27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel[c] be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted,
“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”

Being part of Israel is not about pursuing the Law as religious works, but about having faith:

31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness[d] did not succeed in reaching that law.32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works.



Being part of Israel is by being grafted into the Vine, which is Christ.

10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

 

[leon14]

Being part of Israel is not about physical birth, but spiritual birth:

This is a very important issue which a lot of 'political christians' just dont want to face.
If you were to convert to judaism and regardless of how devout you are, if you aint from a jewish mother you just dont cut the mustard.
If you are of a jewish mother you can be as atheist as you want and be deemed higher than the most devout convert.
There are 2 types of jews - the physical (of a jewish mother) and the spiritual (converts)
Fact is that white western countries give millions, if not billions of dollars to Israel every year in a tithe like tribute and all they get in return is an increase in atheism.
And while there may be blasphemy laws in muslim countries that are aimed at Christians and other smaller sects of Islam and point out how corruptly they are implemented (and correctly so..) for some reason people refuse to acknowledge the laws that are implemented regarding 'antisemitism'. If you dont believe me go and insult a jew and see how long it takes for the police to take you down to the station.

 

[Sophia]

Being part of Israel is not about physical birth, but spiritual birth:

This is a very important issue which a lot of 'political christians' just dont want to face.
If you were to convert to judaism and regardless of how devout you are, if you aint from a jewish mother you just dont cut the mustard.
If you are of a jewish mother you can be as atheist as you want and be deemed higher than the most devout convert.
There are 2 types of jews - the physical (of a jewish mother) and the spiritual (converts)
Fact is that white western countries give millions, if not billions of dollars to Israel every year in a tithe like tribute and all they get in return is an increase in atheism.
And while there may be blasphemy laws in muslim countries that are aimed at Christians and other smaller sects of Islam and point out how corruptly they are implemented (and correctly so..) for some reason people refuse to acknowledge the laws that are implemented regarding 'antisemitism'. If you dont believe me go and insult a jew and see how long it takes for the police to take you down to the station.

I agree with the points you stated, but I'm wary of the spirit of it.

I know that Satan has a lust for those who are descendents of Israel, and that God has allowed them to be deceived and controlled by Satan,
but the spirit of my argument is of encouragement to those in Christ, and to help them relate to the Old Testament.
I recognize who Babylon is, but I don't need to preach about it,
I just need to help disciple those who have alienated themselves from the Word of God given to the Prophets. The thread is to bring to the Truth those who would give their spiritual birthright away to another people, by them denying that they themselves are heirs of the Promise, gained through Christ.

 

[Sophia]

The point of the thread is:
Christ was born an Israelite, and a Jew, and the perfect heir to all the Covenants and Promises to Abraham, to Jacob, to David, and to national Israel.
We are made one with Christ, those of us who are in Christ.
Therefore, as part of Christ, we are joint heirs in all that He is promised.
There is no Promise made that Christ doesn't deserve to inherit,
therefore there is no Promise that is not for those of us who are in Christ.

 

[Sophia]

Basically, to separate the Church from Israel
Is to separate Christ from being a Jew.

 

[michael56]

Being part of Israel is not about physical birth, but spiritual birth:

This is a very important issue which a lot of 'political christians' just dont want to face.
If you were to convert to judaism and regardless of how devout you are, if you aint from a jewish mother you just dont cut the mustard.
If you are of a jewish mother you can be as atheist as you want and be deemed higher than the most devout convert.
There are 2 types of jews - the physical (of a jewish mother) and the spiritual (converts)
Fact is that white western countries give millions, if not billions of dollars to Israel every year in a tithe like tribute and all they get in return is an increase in atheism.
And while there may be blasphemy laws in muslim countries that are aimed at Christians and other smaller sects of Islam and point out how corruptly they are implemented (and correctly so..) for some reason people refuse to acknowledge the laws that are implemented regarding 'antisemitism'. If you dont believe me go and insult a jew and see how long it takes for the police to take you down to the station.

But God is with Israel, and a time is coming when all the Israelites alive will be saved.

 

[leon14]

But God is with Israel, and a time is coming when all the Israelites alive will be saved.

Did God tell you this?

 

[Sophia]

But God is with Israel, and a time is coming when all the Israelites alive will be saved.

Is God with those who He cut off? Or is He with the Remnant He has elected for Himself.
Many passages reject your proposal. Romans 9 (the basis of the OP) and Jeremiah 50 are two that clearly refute all alive descendents of Israel being saved. Many will be cut off, leaving a pure and pardoned Remnant.

 

[michael56]

Did God tell you this?

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, [SUP]26 [/SUP]and in this way[SUP][e][/SUP] all Israel will be saved. Rom 11:25

 

[michael56]

No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
BECAUSE THEY WILL ALL KNOW ME ,
from the least of them to the greatest.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.” Heb 8:11&12

 

[Sophia]

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,[SUP]26 [/SUP]and in this way[SUP][e][/SUP] all Israel will be saved. Rom 11:25

That verse is very important! It shows that the full number of Gentiles need to be brought in before Israel can be called complete. It also relates to Romans 9 where parts need to be cut off in order that the whole can be saved.
You have separated Israel from the Church without thinking of the implications. They are One.
That phrase "all Israel" includes Gentiles.

 

[michael56]

Is God with those who He cut off? Or is He with the Remnant He has elected for Himself.
Many passages reject your proposal. Romans 9 (the basis of the OP) and Jeremiah 50 are two that clearly refute all alive descendents of Israel being saved. Many will be cut off, leaving a pure and pardoned Remnant.

Now he is with the remnant, but a time is coming when every Jew alive at that time will know the Lord and be saved

 

[michael56]

his is what the Lord Almighty says: “Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, [SUP]21 [/SUP]and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, ‘Let us go at once to entreatthe Lord and seek the Lord Almighty. I myself am going.’ [SUP]22 [/SUP]And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.”
[SUP]23 [/SUP]This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you. Zechariah 8:19-23

There are future blessings specific to the nation of Israel, it is prophesied all over the OT as well as the new

 

[Sophia]

Now he is with the remnant, but a time is coming when every Jew alive at that time will know the Lord and be saved

It was always and only ever about the Remnant.

Have you not heard the words of Jesus and Paul and the other Apostles when they tell you that not all who are descendant from Israel are heirs of Israel?
Not all who claim to be Jews are truly Jews.
Not all who claim to be sons of Abraham are sons of his promise.

There will never be a day when all who claim to be Jews will be saved,
But there will be a day when all of True Israel will be given her inheritance.

 

[leon14]

Now he is with the remnant, but a time is coming when every Jew alive at that time will know the Lord and be saved

Tell Sarah Silverman, see how far you get with that

 

[michael56]

Tell Sarah Silverman, see how far you get with that

My beliefs are based on what is written on the bible, if some refuse to believe what is plainly written that is their choice. I would never belong to a church that refused to accept what was written, but that is my personal choice

 

[Sophia]

his is what the Lord Almighty says: “Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, [SUP]21 [/SUP]and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, ‘Let us go at once to entreatthe Lord and seek the Lord Almighty. I myself am going.’ [SUP]22 [/SUP]And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.”
[SUP]23 [/SUP]This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you. Zechariah 8:19-23

There are future blessings specific to the nation of Israel, it is prophesied all over the OT as well as the new

And who does Paul say is a true Jew?
If not those engrafted, and engrafted back in, then who?

Your label of "Jew" is very physically minded, and gullible, and founded upon man-made definitions, not the definitions of the Word of God. There are many who claim to be Jews, but are of a very different Synogogue (Revelation speaks clearly of this).

 

[michael56]

And who does Paul say is a true Jew?
If not those engrafted, and engrafted back in, then who?

Your label of "Jew" is very physically minded, and gullible. There are many who claim to be Jews, but are of a very different Synogogue (Revelation speaks clearly of this).

I think the gullible spiritually are those who follow the great scholars and theologians led of their own natural reasoning , rather than the plain words of the bible:

I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. [SUP]3 [/SUP]On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. [SUP]4 [/SUP]On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’
[SUP]6 [/SUP]“On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. [SUP]8 [/SUP]On that day the Lord will shieldthose who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
Mourning for the One They Pierced

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[SUP][a][/SUP] of grace and supplication. They will look on[SUP][b][/SUP] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. [SUP]11 [/SUP]On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. [SUP]12 [/SUP]The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, [SUP]13 [/SUP]the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, [SUP]14 [/SUP]and all the rest of the clans and their wives. Zechariah ch 12

 

[Sophia]

I think the gullible spiritually are those who follow the great scholars and theologians of this world, rather than the plain words of the bible:

I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. [SUP]3 [/SUP]On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. [SUP]4 [/SUP]On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’
[SUP]6 [/SUP]“On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. [SUP]8 [/SUP]On that day the Lord will shieldthose who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
Mourning for the One They Pierced

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[SUP][a][/SUP] of grace and supplication. They will look on[SUP][b][/SUP] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. [SUP]11 [/SUP]On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. [SUP]12 [/SUP]The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, [SUP]13 [/SUP]the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, [SUP]14 [/SUP]and all the rest of the clans and their wives. Zechariah ch 12

And you interpret this with the physical mind if you think this is about genetic descendants.
Do you not know that the One whom they pierced is Christ, and that we are made One with His Body?

 

[leon14]

How does one define 'jew'?
Racially? Culturally? Religion?
Fact is if you aint of a jewish mother then you wont cut it.
Even as a convert you will be a 10th rater.
We're really dealing with a bloodline and judaism is for jews only