God is not Mysterious

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Starcrash

Starcrash

Banned
#1
Aug 5, 2013
624
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0
#1
Skeptics often challenge Christians to prove that prayers are answered, and we often hear the same thing: "God's ways are mysterious". This is said so that scientific experiments that disprove the power of prayer are discounted as having an extra variable that can't be accounted for -- God's will.

But why should that be "variable"? Christians claim that God's nature is consistent and doesn't change over time. In fact, this perfect consistency ought to make God the most predictable being in existence, and not even slightly mysterious. If God answered someone's prayer for healing but not another person's, then the reason should be discoverable in principal if not also in practice.*

So why do Christians keep offering this defense? Why aren't they trying to discover God's unchanging nature by studying the pattern of which prayers are given which answers?


*On the topic of healing, the New Testament is extremely consistent. Jesus healed everyone who asked for it, never once citing a greater need for someone to remain sick or to die from sickness. If prayer is actually answered, then prayers for healing ought to never be answered with a "no" if Jesus' nature hasn't changed.
 
Hizikyah

Hizikyah

Senior Member
#2
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
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#2
Is every situation equal? The persons faith? their sincerity towards Messiah? their walk, doctrine, acceptance of what Messiah said? etc.... to compare people and their situations as equal is not even somewhat realistic.

and the parts of Himself the Creator has revealed is not too mysterious IMO, all that has to be done is accept what He says about Himself and the eyes will see it is true.
 
breno785au

breno785au

Senior Member
#3
Jul 23, 2013
6,002
764
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Australia
#3
Check this out:
Matthew 17:16-17
And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

Senior Member
#4
Sep 4, 2013
30,179
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#4
Brother Hizikyah, Starcrash is a professed unbeliever (see Profile)......just saying.
 
Starcrash

Starcrash

Banned
#5
Aug 5, 2013
624
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0
#5
Hizikyah said:
Is every situation equal? The persons faith? their sincerity towards Messiah? their walk, doctrine, acceptance of what Messiah said? etc.... to compare people and their situations as equal is not even somewhat realistic.

and the parts of Himself the Creator has revealed is not too mysterious IMO, all that has to be done is accept what He says about Himself and the eyes will see it is true.
Click to expand...
What you're claiming is that God's will can't be discerned in practice because there are too many other variables. I would assume you agree that it is still discernible in principal, and so I'd hope that you're not one of those many believers who claim that God is mysterious (like Job). And the second paragraph kinda confirms this.

Still, God's end of the prayer should be constant. So one could (again, in principal) be able to quantify one's faith, sincerity, walk, etc. by looking at the outcome of prayer.
 
Hizikyah

Hizikyah

Senior Member
#6
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#6
p_rehbein said:
Brother Hizikyah, Starcrash is a professed unbeliever (see Profile)......just saying.
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got it, so there will be a different point of view. i may have worded different but I think I would have said he same.
 
Starcrash

Starcrash

Banned
#7
Aug 5, 2013
624
2
0
#7
p_rehbein said:
Brother Hizikyah, Starcrash is a professed unbeliever (see Profile)......just saying.
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If you're claiming that my argument ought to be dismissed because of that, it's a well-known logical fallacy called Ad Hominem. It would be just as illogical for me to dismiss answers to my argument just because they came from Christians.
 
M

MyLighthouse

Guest
#8
#8
The problem usually is we try to put the blame on God for when a prayer isn't answered or doesn't turn out the way they planned. Sometimes it just us getting in the way or trying to do it our own way.

God does say No, it's always about the greater good and God's will. God's will is for none to perish and all to come to Him, for Christians to be sanctified, etc. There are many who would not be saved if it wasn't for a death or sickness. Jesus said no to healing Lazarus (yes I know he does later), but the question is why? Because waiting four days later saved way more than if he would had said yes then.

"So why do Christians keep offering this defense? Why aren't they trying to discover God's unchanging nature by studying the pattern of which prayers are given which answers?"

This is a good thought, but is very circumstantial. Again the question is why and how is this working toward God's will? It doesn't make God mysterious just higher and greater than our thoughts.

I like this post, good to think about!
 
Hizikyah

Hizikyah

Senior Member
#9
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#9
Starcrash said:
What you're claiming is that God's will can't be discerned in practice because there are too many other variables. I would assume you agree that it is still discernible in principal, and so I'd hope that you're not one of those many believers who claim that God is mysterious (like Job). And the second paragraph kinda confirms this.

Still, God's end of the prayer should be constant. So one could (again, in principal) be able to quantify one's faith, sincerity, walk, etc. by looking at the outcome of prayer.
Click to expand...
No that's not what im saying, Im saying His will is clearly discernible by His word, problem is believers/non-believers alike, refuse to accept what He says to be literally true. I believe it is true because I have had things happen to know it is true. what Im saying is not known to us humans is where we are EXACTLY and where another human is EXACTLY within His eyes/will, we may know or think we know generally, but none of know exactly, as even the prophets prayed for answers and waited for a messenger to bring the answer, now people seem to pray and the first thing their brain imagines is "the will of God" ...what im saying is we cant use false testimony to withness against anything; we can not use a "vile catholic priest" to say "followers of God are bad" as the vile one does everything the Creator says not to.... We can not use a false prophet like Benny Hinn to confirm or deny miracles.... We can not etc etc etc...

I tried to explain a little better that time?
 
Hizikyah

Hizikyah

Senior Member
#10
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#10
MyLighthouse said:
The problem usually is we try to put the blame on God for when a prayer isn't answered or doesn't turn out the way they planned. Sometimes it just us getting in the way or trying to do it our own way.
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I think this is valid, people try to use the Creator as their personal "genie" and when they dont get what they "genied" for... it's supposedly "God's fault"
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

Senior Member
#11
Sep 4, 2013
30,179
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#11
Starcrash said:
If you're claiming that my argument ought to be dismissed because of that, it's a well-known logical fallacy called Ad Hominem. It would be just as illogical for me to dismiss answers to my argument just because they came from Christians.
Click to expand...

No, I'm saying that debating an unbeliever has no fruitful purpose in the Edification of the Church. You been here a long time, and I don't believe any argument could be offered that would cause you to have a "come to Jesus" moment.

Goodness knows, there is enough disagreement among believers here concerning theological and ideological/denominational differences without engaging in debates with unbelievers.
 
Starcrash

Starcrash

Banned
#12
Aug 5, 2013
624
2
0
#12
MyLighthouse said:
The problem usually is we try to put the blame on God for when a prayer isn't answered or doesn't turn out the way they planned. Sometimes it just us getting in the way or trying to do it our own way.

God does say No, it's always about the greater good and God's will. God's will is for none to perish and all to come to Him, for Christians to be sanctified, etc. There are many who would not be saved if it wasn't for a death or sickness. Jesus said no to healing Lazarus (yes I know he does later), but the question is why? Because waiting four days later saved way more than if he would had said yes then.

"So why do Christians keep offering this defense? Why aren't they trying to discover God's unchanging nature by studying the pattern of which prayers are given which answers?"

This is a good thought, but is very circumstantial. Again the question is why and how is this working toward God's will? It doesn't make God mysterious just higher and greater than our thoughts.

I like this post, good to think about!
Click to expand...
That's true -- it is (according to the bible) God's will that none should perish. So then, none should perish... unless God's will isn't done. And yet I'm sure that there are Christians that pray that none should perish, and God's will shouldn't be any more of a hindrance to answered prayer than God's ability to carry it out is. So why do "some perish"?

As an atheist, the obvious answer is that God doesn't answer such prayers (due to non-existence). This is the same answer that I imagine you'd give to a Muslim who is curious about why Allah's will isn't always carried out. It's an easy answer to spot when you aren't biased to believe that a prayer must be answered.
 
Starcrash

Starcrash

Banned
#13
Aug 5, 2013
624
2
0
#13
p_rehbein said:
No, I'm saying that debating an unbeliever has no fruitful purpose in the Edification of the Church. You been here a long time, and I don't believe any argument could be offered that would cause you to have a "come to Jesus" moment.

Goodness knows, there is enough disagreement among believers here concerning theological and ideological/denominational differences without engaging in debates with unbelievers.
Click to expand...
Do you believe that God's power is incapable of changing my mind? This is the kind of belief that an atheist would also share. If you believe in the power of prayer, then certainly you must believe it's possible to convince me. If the former Saul (later turned Paul) was arguing against you, would you also just shrug and claim that nothing would ever change the mind of a person who killed Christians for a living?

An unbeliever can give you an outside perspective. Otherwise you're spending your time in an echo chamber -- and it appears that you personally would prefer this.
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

Senior Member
#14
Sep 4, 2013
30,179
6,529
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#14
Starcrash said:
Do you believe that God's power is incapable of changing my mind? This is the kind of belief that an atheist would also share. If you believe in the power of prayer, then certainly you must believe it's possible to convince me. If the former Saul (later turned Paul) was arguing against you, would you also just shrug and claim that nothing would ever change the mind of a person who killed Christians for a living?

An unbeliever can give you an outside perspective. Otherwise you're spending your time in an echo chamber -- and it appears that you personally would prefer this.
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1) With God all things are possible.........IF IT IS HIS WILL........and yet He will give some over to their.........

2) With regards to "echo chamber," if by that you mean studying the Word of God with fellow believers, then Yes! The rest of my life will I joyously spend in such an "echo chamber." An unbeliever can only offer the perspective of the deceiver. Of what possible value is that to a believer? None.

3) Do you believe God's power can change your mind?
 
secularhermit

secularhermit

Banned
#15
May 3, 2013
8,719
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#15
This book will be helpful to understand He is not that way.

 
secularhermit

secularhermit

Banned
#16
May 3, 2013
8,719
75
0
#16
Hizikyah said:
I think this is valid, people try to use the Creator as their personal "genie" and when they dont get what they "genied" for... it's supposedly "God's fault"
Click to expand...
I have made that mistake, several times.
 
Joidevivre

Joidevivre

Senior Member
#17
Jul 15, 2014
3,838
271
83
#17
yovey veu[98 veounveuce. Beuo evueovey890

Hope this clears everything up.
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

Senior Member
#18
Sep 4, 2013
30,179
6,529
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#18
John 12:36 .) While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
37 .) But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 .) That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 .) Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 .) He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
 
Starcrash

Starcrash

Banned
#19
Aug 5, 2013
624
2
0
#19
Hizikyah said:
No that's not what im saying, Im saying His will is clearly discernible by His word, problem is believers/non-believers alike, refuse to accept what He says to be literally true. I believe it is true because I have had things happen to know it is true. what Im saying is not known to us humans is where we are EXACTLY and where another human is EXACTLY within His eyes/will, we may know or think we know generally, but none of know exactly, as even the prophets prayed for answers and waited for a messenger to bring the answer, now people seem to pray and the first thing their brain imagines is "the will of God" ...what im saying is we cant use false testimony to withness against anything; we can not use a "vile catholic priest" to say "followers of God are bad" as the vile one does everything the Creator says not to.... We can not use a false prophet like Benny Hinn to confirm or deny miracles.... We can not etc etc etc...

I tried to explain a little better that time?
Click to expand...
That seems less clear. Are you claiming that we can't know what the answer to a prayer is? I don't get what "using a false prophet... to confirm or deny miracles" has to do with the will of God or about answered prayer.

I do know that you're repeating the "God is not a galactic Santa Claus" argument, which doesn't confirm what the bible claims (scripture makes it apparent that God wants you to ask and wants to give you what you ask for). It's an argument made from observation, that God apparently doesn't give people what they pray for. Scripture makes it apparent that God is supposed to be a vending machine, but observation would show that he doesn't pay out very often.
 
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